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Sancho posted:They both spill outward tho, no matter where they were supposed to b focused. This is not incorrect, but Fascism is a system of governance in regards to a state. Neo-conservatism is a foreign policy platform [mainly articulated by Strauss, though some of it comes through via people like Carl Schmitt] that dictates how a state interacts with other states. There are similarities in how they view military strength, but that's honestly about it.
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Sep 17, 2015 15:54
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Joementum posted:Fun fact: Mother Teresa is more of a US citizen than Alexander Hamilton. He was born in Bermuda and, therefore, not a natural born citizen, while she was made an honorary natural born citizen by an act of Congress. quote:No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution If you were a citizen in 1791, you got in on the ground floor, it didn't matter when you were born because you were older than the Constitution.
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Sep 17, 2015 15:54
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euphronius posted:The definition of fascism is very broad and the adjective fascist is even broader. which is why we should thank Joementum for trying to reclaim the term for prescriptive debate by using it consistently
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Sep 17, 2015 15:55
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Boosted_C5 posted:Testing the waters this morning, I think Ben Carson is going to be the huge loser after last night. Fiorina is going to eat up some of his support. Romney lost
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Sep 17, 2015 15:59
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Schnorkles posted:This is not incorrect, but Fascism is a system of governance in regards to a state. Neo-conservatism is a foreign policy platform [mainly articulated by Strauss, though some of it comes through via people like Carl Schmitt] that dictates how a state interacts with other states. There are similarities in how they view military strength, but that's honestly about it. And neoconservatism's purported goal is to spread democracy by using force to overthrow autocracies, so it's ideologically (and militarily) opposed to fascism. Of course, it routinely fails in that goal.
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Sep 17, 2015 15:59
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Schnorkles posted:This is not incorrect, but Fascism is a system of governance in regards to a state. Neo-conservatism is a foreign policy platform [mainly articulated by Strauss, though some of it comes through via people like Carl Schmitt] that dictates how a state interacts with other states. There are similarities in how they view military strength, but that's honestly about it. Could you point me to which specific writings of Leo Strauss and/or Carl Schmitt articulate this theory of foreign policy? TIA
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Sep 17, 2015 16:00
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Joementum posted:Very simply: one is directed inward, the other outward. That makes a lot of sense. I think both could apply here though. Fiornia is definitely Neo-Con in her sabre rattling, but her stance on stuff like say, womens rights, is quite definitely fascist. And as another poster mentioned, I think even if you focus it inward, it by necessity has to go outward, lest you run out of demons.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:00
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The Thatcher on the 10 line should be driving the nwo illuminati people crazy right about now.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:01
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Yeah, Carly is not a fascist. The closest thing to fascism on that stage would be Trump's weird nationalist populism and Huckabees theocratic dreams, and still they are both far off from actual fascism.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:02
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Kurt_Cobain posted:The Thatcher on the 10 line should be driving the nwo illuminati people crazy right about now. Yeah, if he was anyone other than Jeb Bush that one comment would have destroyed his candidacy. loving Thatcher? Really?
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Sep 17, 2015 16:02
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Boosted_C5 posted:Testing the waters this morning, I think Ben Carson is going to be the huge loser after last night. Fiorina is going to eat up some of his support. I agree. There is a not-Romney thing going on with Carson, Fiorina, and the rest in relation to Trump. Except Trump is not a '12 Romney either. I guess the comparison to an '08 Giuliani has been made and that seems accurate, but the larger point is that this is a unique election with elements of previous elections mixed in. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds. I think the smart money is that the not-Romney pattern holds until the primaries begin in earnest. Then we enter the Trump downfall period where these polls full of landlines and other nonsense start to drop his numbers, the not-Romneys have long flamed out, and we see a "real" candidate like Rubio or Jeb rise from the ashes.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:03
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Jastiger posted:her stance on stuff like say, womens rights, is quite definitely fascist. No, it's socially conservative.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:05
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Yeah, Carly is not a fascist. The closest thing to fascism on that stage would be Trump's weird nationalist populism and Huckabees theocratic dreams, and still they are both far off from actual fascism. I dunno. I felt like her position on womens rights and the idea that separation of powers was poo-poo'd by all the candidates kind of leans towards a fascist model. They have all advocated religious law, they think the judicial branch should be subservient to the executive when convenient, and have absolutely no problem using authority and military to achieve domestic and foreign issues. Its neo con for sure, and fascist in some aspects.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:06
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Bryter posted:No, it's socially conservative. Can't edit on my current PC, but I'd argue that the position is socially conservative, the way they want to achieve it can be fascist with state mandated religious counseling and the criminalization of currently legal activity.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:07
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Joementum posted:Fun fact: Mother Teresa is more of a US citizen than Alexander Hamilton. He was born in Bermuda and, therefore, not a natural born citizen, while she was made an honorary natural born citizen by an act of Congress. People born prior to 1776 tended to not be natural born US citizens considering, you know, the US didn't exist at that time. 8 presidents were born British subjects. So no, she's not.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:11
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Jastiger posted:Can't edit on my current PC, but I'd argue that the position is socially conservative, the way they want to achieve it can be fascist with state mandated religious counseling and the criminalization of currently legal activity. If you think seeking to achieve a social goal via "the criminalization of currently legal activity" is fascism, almost all politicians are fascists. And the history of mandating religious input into the lives of "fallen women" has a much longer history than fascism. Magdalene asylums go back hundreds of years, for example. Not a particularly pleasant practice, but definitely not fascism either. Bryter fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 16:13
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Joementum posted:It's not really a big deal. Congress has granted it a few times as an honor, usually posthumously. That's really neat, how'd you learn this?
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Sep 17, 2015 16:14
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Did anything noteworthy come out of the kids table debate or will we hopefully start seeing some of these guys quietly dropping out of the race soon as well?
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Sep 17, 2015 16:15
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Bob Ojeda posted:Could you point me to which specific writings of Leo Strauss and/or Carl Schmitt articulate this theory of foreign policy? you don't have PM's, so in order to not be super verbose on a derail, I'd read the Concept of the Political by Carl Schmitt imo. It's tough to say "Strauss and Schmitt in this passage here specifically outline neo-conservatism" because they don't. I tend to view the W years as the most coherent real world example of what someone following Schmitt's concept of the enemy would look like though. V  V
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Sep 17, 2015 16:18
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nachos posted:I agree. There is a not-Romney thing going on with Carson, Fiorina, and the rest in relation to Trump. Except Trump is not a '12 Romney either. I guess the comparison to an '08 Giuliani has been made and that seems accurate, but the larger point is that this is a unique election with elements of previous elections mixed in. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds. Landline polls help Trump? I was under the assumption that he was doing FAR better in the non-traditional/online polls and was the big winner with younger voters.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:20
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XK posted:Too few people noticed Trump declined to say he wanted to means-test Social Security. He did say well-off people should decline it since they don't need it, but he refused to say it should actually have an income limit put in place. He gave the most appealing possible answer to that question, I thought. Nobody reasonable can argue with "well, you paid in, so if you want your money back you should get it... but do you really need it, I mean come on."
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Sep 17, 2015 16:24
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Bryter posted:If you think seeking to achieve a social goal via "the criminalization of currently legal activity" is fascism, almost all politicians are fascists. Hmm thats a fair point. I tend to go off of this though, because I think it does a pretty good job of outlaying fascism: http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
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Sep 17, 2015 16:24
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Jastiger posted:I dunno. I felt like her position on womens rights and the idea that separation of powers was poo-poo'd by all the candidates kind of leans towards a fascist model. They have all advocated religious law, they think the judicial branch should be subservient to the executive when convenient, and have absolutely no problem using authority and military to achieve domestic and foreign issues. It's not fascist. Fascism is a very specific thing. It is conservatism. Thomas Jefferson was fiercely opposed to judicial power and he was no fascist. Laws being influenced/dictated by religion is 100% standard conservatism that existed long before fascism was dreamed up. The closest thing to Fascism is Trump's weird nationalist image of America just needing a strong leader to beat the Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese and all the other others undermining us and making America Not Great Again, while simultaneously advocating economic populism because America needs to take care of everyone.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:24
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Jastiger posted:Hmm thats a fair point. I tend to go off of this though, because I think it does a pretty good job of outlaying fascism: that article is dumb and was explicitly written so people could call dubya a fascist, but it is not an actual academic definition of fascism at all.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:27
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:It's not fascist. Fascism is a very specific thing. It is conservatism. Thomas Jefferson was fiercely opposed to judicial power and he was no fascist. Laws being influenced/dictated by religion is 100% standard conservatism that existed long before fascism was dreamed up. Republicans are fascists and Democrats are Communist-marxo-nazis.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:28
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Schnorkles posted:you don't have PM's, so in order to not be super verbose on a derail, I'd read the Concept of the Political by Carl Schmitt imo. I was being kind of snarky so fair enough. But the point that I would want to make is that to my mind neo-conservatism is a distinct ideology that's clearly influenced by Schmitt and Strauss (and Kojeve etc) but also very much a second order thing distinct from what they actually say. It takes a fairly specific interpretation of the claims they actually make and derives a foreign policy outcome as a conclusion from that - but I don't think it's implicit in their actual writings. Especially in the case of Strauss, where most of his writing is critical political theory, it's at least a couple steps removed. It's really not something that he articulates - at least AFAIK. Schmitt probably comes closer but at the same time Schmitt was a literal Nazi so But sorry for trying to be snarky tho, too early in the morning
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Sep 17, 2015 16:29
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Still testing the waters this morning, Ted Cruz might continue to slowly improve. He might be positioned perfectly between the establishment and the inexperienced outsiders to take advantage and find middle ground. The circles I run in are a small sample, and not perfectly representative of the GOP as a whole, but I'd be willing to bet that both Cruz and Fiorina could surpass Carson in the coming weeks. Cruz just might have been playing this brilliantly all along aligning himself with Trump. I'm seeing some defections from Trump to Cruz. Also the fact that my non-political wife who likes Rubio and does not like Trump thought Cruz greatly improved makes me take pause. After debate #2, she still likes Rubio #1, but said after him she actually likes Cruz now. She's a doctor and knew plenty about Carson coming in and liked him, but after the second debate now she thinks he just doesn't have what it takes. She's also the type of person you'd think JEB! would be able to appeal to --- not political or hard-core, not white, highly educated, etc. She thought he didn't do any better last night than in the first debate and that he just isn't strong enough. She was even less impressed the second time around with Jeb! light, John Kasich, and thought the most memorable thing about him is "he always looks like he's about to cry" LOL.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:31
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nachos posted:I agree. There is a not-Romney thing going on with Carson, Fiorina, and the rest in relation to Trump. Except Trump is not a '12 Romney either. I guess the comparison to an '08 Giuliani has been made and that seems accurate, but the larger point is that this is a unique election with elements of previous elections mixed in. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds. The landline problem has long been solved by virtually every polling firm worth looking at.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:31
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nachos posted:I agree. There is a not-Romney thing going on with Carson, Fiorina, and the rest in relation to Trump. Except Trump is not a '12 Romney either. I guess the comparison to an '08 Giuliani has been made and that seems accurate, but the larger point is that this is a unique election with elements of previous elections mixed in. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds. Trump aside, I have serious doubts about Jeb's viability. Jeb Bush really does come across as wimpy and spineless in the testosterone party ("Apologize to my wife!" "No." "OK."), and voters in the GOP seem tired of Bushes. In the Trump collapse scenario I think you'd see his supporters rally around the strongest not-Jeb.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:31
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Oh Jeb... Bizarre moment 6ft3in Jeb Bush towers over Trump by craftily standing on his TIPTOES for group photo
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Sep 17, 2015 16:32
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Fricassee posted:Did anything noteworthy come out of the kids table debate or will we hopefully start seeing some of these guys quietly dropping out of the race soon as well? Pataki was the most reasonable one of the bunch, which is a lot like saying he's the shiniest turd. Santorum was his usual nutty self, and he non-ironically compared Kim Davis to the girl in Columbine who said she believed in God (this is an untrue urban legend). Jindal was completely off his rocker, and advocated throwing out every member of the Supreme Court and splitting off from the Republican Party because they're not conservative enough for him. Graham was not really noteworthy, he's positioning himself for a hawkish VP possibility. Boring. Although he did call a few people bastards.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:33
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Do yourself a favor and go to @kalebhorton on twitter and read all of these. Besides the flashy slow motion death of Americas shittiest club of assholes, this was the best part of the debate for me.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:37
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:that article is dumb and was explicitly written so people could call dubya a fascist, but it is not an actual academic definition of fascism at all. You don't think the points presented there are worthwhile, DUbya not withstanding? I hear what you're saying re: Trump and fascism though. I have a hard time separating Neo Con and Fascism when they are both hyper nationalistic and are hyper militaristic. They are all about demonizing the "other" and having a strong interior police state.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:37
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Fricassee posted:Did anything noteworthy come out of the kids table debate or will we hopefully start seeing some of these guys quietly dropping out of the race soon as well? Lindsay Graham is inches from a Network-style breakdown on air.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:37
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Bob Ojeda posted:I was being kind of snarky so fair enough. But the point that I would want to make is that to my mind neo-conservatism is a distinct ideology that's clearly influenced by Schmitt and Strauss (and Kojeve etc) but also very much a second order thing distinct from what they actually say. It takes a fairly specific interpretation of the claims they actually make and derives a foreign policy outcome as a conclusion from that - but I don't think it's implicit in their actual writings. Especially in the case of Strauss, where most of his writing is critical political theory, it's at least a couple steps removed. It's really not something that he articulates - at least AFAIK. Schmitt probably comes closer but at the same time Schmitt was a literal Nazi so I totally agree and I could tell what you were getting at. It's tough to ever look at a political philosopher and say "Oh hey, this guy is arguing for political or foreign policy outcome x" because they rarely, if ever, are. [I'd also argue in a lot of cases that they can't.] I think especially with Strauss you have to look more to people who follow him [Wolfowitz(sp?) and such] to actually see people trying to apply it to create political outcomes. The part that I would assert is that Schmitt, in particular, creates a foreign policy around his concept of enemy and the resulting struggle with said enemy that does a very good job in encapsulating how the W white house went about trying to deal with terrorism abroad. ed: grammars. Schnorkles fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 16:38
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Montasque posted:Oh Jeb... Jeb you are the moron of the family and that is saying something
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Sep 17, 2015 16:40
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Montasque posted:Oh Jeb...
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Sep 17, 2015 16:41
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Hilary, what's your hot take this morning? Mom jokes! I actually find this more endearing than I should
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Sep 17, 2015 16:41
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Oops attach:
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Sep 17, 2015 16:42
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Xenophon posted:Hilary, what's your hot take this morning? Ironically, mom jokes actually make her seem a bit more down-to-earth.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:42
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