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Sharkopath posted:"I don't like this thing" secretly meaning "I love this thing" is an incredibly stupid concept. We are all tsundere for Gundam.
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Sep 18, 2015 03:43
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BlitzBlast posted:We are all tsundere for Gundam. There is nothing tsun about my dere for Gundams Wing and Build Fighters.
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Sep 18, 2015 03:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:The EA Admiral from the early show feels like he's part of a completely different show than the later army. He is. The EA has two factions. Most of one of them was killed at JOSH-A.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:05
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where did U go
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Sep 18, 2015 04:20
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muike posted:where did U go U stands for Uranium, which is made useless by N-Jammers, so it was dropped.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:25
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muike posted:where did U go JOint Supreme Headquarters - Alaska.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:26
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dogsicle posted:Gundam is a big franchise and has a lot of warts, so I feel like downplaying its overall quality is kinda normal? Especially when mech shows seem to be a pretty walled-off within the niche of anime. It has very few warts.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:41
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Downplaying Gundam's quality is kinda normal. However, it is also wrong and lame
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Sep 18, 2015 04:43
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In some way shape or form I really love all of Gundam, even AGE. It has good music, good mech design (95% of the time) and great goddamn models. SEED Destiny is hilarious, which redeems it in my eyes, and 00 S2 is also pretty silly, although that considered, there are still parts that are not funny dumb.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:54
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boom boom boom posted:It has very few warts. There are only two series that are actually mostly quality.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:54
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Very high chaff to wheat ratio, in the gundam franchise.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:54
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Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. We'll most likely go ahead with the new thread(s?) in October. Your suggestions for the OP will be taken into account, though not all of them may be implemented. Regarding having one thread or two, since a couple of you have written quite a bit about it, do you guys still wanna discuss that? If not I'll probably just tally up the individual votes and proceed with what the majority wants.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:57
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Sharkopath posted:There are only two series that are actually mostly quality. Original, zeta, zz, victory, 0080, turn a, reconguista, and build fighters, right? what's the second one?
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Sep 18, 2015 05:16
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boom boom boom posted:Original, zeta, zz, victory, 0080, turn a, reconguista, and build fighters, right? what's the second one? X is actually pretty good, barring some pacing issues from cutting 10 episodes last minute.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:23
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I'm leaning towards two threads, because I want to focus only on IBO and not the usual stuff that goes on in this thread
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Sep 18, 2015 05:24
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boom boom boom posted:Original, zeta, zz, victory, 0080, turn a, reconguista, and build fighters, right? what's the second one? I would add Char's Counter-Attack: lot's of people complain about it because it doesn't fit with how they viewed Char and they hate Quess and Hathaway, but if you watch it from the point of view that Char was really messed up to begin with and that Quess and Hathaway are tragic characters it's really good! It also has an amazing ending theme. There should be a note in the OP about how Camille really is a man's name. I haven't seen any AMV how Zeta with Camille Saint-Saëns' music, but hoepfully one day someone will do it. I suggest the Danse Macabre.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:26
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ImpAtom posted:I liked your positive comments, I just haven't had much to say about it. This is the thing. It's really hard to drum up an interesting multi-participant conversation about how awesome something is because it tends to result in "This show was awesome!" "Yeah, sure was!" "..." "...", whereas everyone has their own opinions on what a show did wrong or what it could do better(or if it even did anything wrong or could do anything better, or what parts in particular were lacking), which is why most actual long discussions tend to be talking about flaws. Bad Seafood posted:Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. We'll most likely go ahead with the new thread(s?) in October. Your suggestions for the OP will be taken into account, though not all of them may be implemented. Two threads because that's what's always worked in the past. Not everyone who wants to talk about Gundam is going to be watching G-Tekketsu immediately and I'm sure people who want to talk about G-Tekketsu would appreciate having a thread of their own. Traditionally there's been enough interest to both keep the Gundam thread not dead even when a currently running series thread is going, so I don't see why anything needs to change.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:32
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Kanos posted:Two threads because that's what's always worked in the past. Not everyone who wants to talk about Gundam is going to be watching G-Tekketsu immediately and I'm sure people who want to talk about G-Tekketsu would appreciate having a thread of their own. Traditionally there's been enough interest to both keep the Gundam thread not dead even when a currently running series thread is going, so I don't see why anything needs to change. Yeah, you really don't need the main thread flaring up once a week with several pages of CIA-redacted-level spoiler tags because little Bobby, the protagonist's best friend, got his head shot clean off.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:34
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Dulkor posted:X is actually pretty good, barring some pacing issues from cutting 10 episodes last minute. He said "Actually mostly quality" so i'm not including stuff like X, that has a lame main character or G, which has a kinda weak start, even thought I'd definitely call both of them good.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:38
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dogsicle posted:I'm leaning towards two threads, because I want to focus only on IBO and not the usual stuff that goes on in this thread Yeah, IBO's got some names attached to it that could draw in new people. You don't want to scare them off when they go to the thread to talk about IBO and instead find multi page long discussions about how bad Destiny is and whether or not Gundam is mostly poo poo with at best, a few decent shows.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:40
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boom boom boom posted:Yeah, IBO's got some names attached to it that could draw in new people. You don't want to scare them off when they go to the thread to talk about IBO and instead find multi page long discussions about how bad Destiny is and whether or not Gundam is mostly poo poo with at best, a few decent shows. Well, that's why I prefer to downplay Gundam. Shows like Turn A and possibly IBO are really good shows and entry points for new viewers, but the rest of the Gundam canon can be overwhelming and there are strong opinions on both sides. It's probably best to be as fresh as possible going in to the first couple series while feeling out if you like the franchise or not. and fwiw, I've been harsh on the franchise, as a whole, in the past because of a lack of good pacing. Doing so is a bit unfair, but I don't think the criticism is off-base.
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Sep 18, 2015 06:10
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Boom boom boom inspired me to think a little bit about how I feel about the franchise as a whole. I feel like all of Tomino's Gundam productions are at their core good. All of them have something they're trying to say and are simply using robot fightin' as a medium to spread their message. They can get really warty when it comes to pacing and production issues and there are a lot of simply bad characters in them but I can't think of any of Tomino's Gundams I would call bad; I would say the best of them is Turn A, the worst of them is Victory, and my favorite of them is ZZ. That said, I still really like Victory and wouldn't call it bad at all, just the worst of the Tomino productions. The AUs are mixed trending good. G and X are legitimately good shows that tell good stories with good casts in completely different ways, though X suffers a lot from from being cut down. Wing is loving batshit insane but it's entertaining because of it; it doesn't have a real coherent message but it's extremely fun just because everyone is so damned nutty. SEED is a hammy soap opera of a show that is middling when compared to other Gundam shows but it's not irredeemable garbage. Destiny starts really promising and becomes a victim of its own massive production issues trainwreck and lack of coherent direction. 00 similarly starts fairly good in S1 but the split cour release meant that S2 is very design-by-committee and heaves frantically back towards a traditional view of what a Gundam show should be like, making it relatively sterile and boring. AGE is the only Gundam show that I struggle to find praise for; it's not well animated, its soundtrack is nothing terribly special, the cast is awful, the story is a mess, and there's no coherent underlying theme being explored besides an incredibly weak "fighting is bad". Build Fighters is basically a popcorn just for funsies show but it does it exceptionally well. BFT is simply a worse and more generic BF that is a victim of a squashed production schedule, but it's not horrid. The UC OVAs are mixed. 0080 is in the running for the single best production in the franchise. 08th MS Team is beautifully animated, but its love story is poorly told and falls flat because it's simply a love-at-first-sight handwave. 0083 is one of the most mixed Gundam productions; in terms of animation and soundtrack it's absolutely top notch, but suffers from one of the worst casts in the franchise, a scatterbrained plot, and the mechanical design and fight choreography are desperately out of place with other shows set in the same time period which makes it feel really weird in the context of the Universal Century setting. F91 is a sad story of failed potential; what's there is interesting enough to make me really want more, but there's little substance to what is there so it can't be called good. Unicorn is basically 0083 for a new generation; much like 0083, it's absolutely beautiful and sounds amazing, but has a mostly poor cast and a totally pointless plot. It's worthwhile for the visuals and the mecha porn but it doesn't really have anything meaningful to say. IGLOO is pretty bad even if you ignore the uncomfortable undercurrent of fascist apologia; the CG looks like poo poo and since it's a show about failed wunderwaffen most of the mechanical designs are  .Gundam as a whole is good. Basically any main series production made prior to the 2000s is worth at least a look, and most of the OVAs are worth watching for one reason or another(even the ones with poor stories and casts tend to be worth watching for the visuals and audio alone). The 2000s AUs are where the franchise's quality level becomes really shaky, but even then the only series I don't think has any value is AGE.
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Sep 18, 2015 07:20
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Personally, when I say that Gundam as a whole isn't all that good, I don't mean that as a damning thing. The metaseries is huge and a covers a variety of different writers, tones, and settings. It'd be insane to expect a consistent level of quality, and it's not like being bad means it can't be enjoyable to watch. To be honest, when people talk about how traditionally Gundamy something is, I don't actually see that as that much of a con. Gundam is essentially a single story being endlessly retold, with the production staff of each show trying to put their own twist on a core set of plot beats and themes. Even the designs reflect this, with every single main Gundam being that artist's personal redesign of the RX-78-2 (and often the RX-178). Sometimes they try to be faithful and sometimes they strive to be different, but I don't see anything necessarily wrong with either. It's part of the curse of being a longtime fan I guess; where some people look at Unicorn and think "wow this is literally nothing", others are watching something entirely new. It's like how Build Fighters both wowed and troubled a lot of Gundam fans who just weren't that used to typical shonen tournament shows.
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Sep 18, 2015 07:37
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BlitzBlast posted:Personally, when I say that Gundam as a whole isn't all that good, I don't mean that as a damning thing. The metaseries is huge and a covers a variety of different writers, tones, and settings. It'd be insane to expect a consistent level of quality, and it's not like being bad means it can't be enjoyable to watch. "Traditionally Gundamy" in reference to 00 S2 can be rephrased to "deemed safe by executives and/or the production team", if you prefer. 00 S1 tried something relatively unique(being a modern riff on Wing instead of a modern riff on 0079) and was reeled in hard during the split cour to be less unique. Gundam is a similar story being endlessly retold, but that doesn't prevent series from being bold and experimental about how they tell that story. 00 S2 pretty much retreated entirely into "main guy with magic psychic powers who is the Unequivocal Good Guy fights against Unequivocally Evil Bad Guy Faction Led By Evil Robot", which is about as generic as generic gets, which is why it was disappointing to me. The first half of the show was all about shades of gray and whether what Celestial Being was doing was actually right or good and then the second half was all about said morally ambiguous organization battling against sock puppet cackling parody villains sitting in a loving orbital laser named loving Memento Mori genociding innocent Arabs from space. Build Fighters didn't wow Gundam fans because it was a typical shounen tournament show and they aren't familiar with that show format, it wowed fans because it had fight choreography that was so good it rivaled the very best in the entire franchise and every single thing about the show was bursting at the seams with carefully considered references, nods, and love letters to the entire franchise that non-fans wouldn't even pick up on but were done anyway. Kanos fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 07:52
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BlitzBlast posted:Personally, when I say that Gundam as a whole isn't all that good, I don't mean that as a damning thing. The metaseries is huge and a covers a variety of different writers, tones, and settings. It'd be insane to expect a consistent level of quality, and it's not like being bad means it can't be enjoyable to watch. That's a really good point. I've seen people on /m/ and other sites bash Unicorn as being too deriative and boring, but the reactions from people that watch it that are new to the franchise are completely different; they seem to really like it. I think something similar happens with SEED; people that've watched most of the other series aren't too keen on it, but it gets a lot of support from people that haven't watched a lot of the franchise.
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Sep 18, 2015 07:53
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Kanos posted:Build Fighters didn't wow Gundam fans because it was a typical shounen tournament show and they aren't familiar with that show format, it wowed fans because it had fight choreography that was so good it rivaled the very best in the entire franchise and every single thing about the show was bursting at the seams with carefully considered references, nods, and love letters to the entire franchise that non-fans wouldn't even pick up on but were done anyway. I think you already know that you're not speaking for everyone though. There were some people who couldn't wrap their heads around the concept of toys fighting ("How can there be drama if there's no death?!?!?"), others who absolutely loved Reiji even though he was only slightly above Sekai as far as stereotypical shonen protagonists go, and still others who hated how every fight ended with Build Knuckle when the concept of signature moves is nigh omnipresent in shonen. It's not like it's exclusive to BF either; Garrod and Tobia get a lot of love when they're just pretty typical shonen protagonists too. EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that people liked/disliked BF because it was straight shonen. I'm saying that played a part in how a lot of fans appreciated it. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 08:12
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Kanos posted:This is the thing. It's really hard to drum up an interesting multi-participant conversation about how awesome something is because it tends to result in "This show was awesome!" "Yeah, sure was!" "..." "...", whereas everyone has their own opinions on what a show did wrong or what it could do better(or if it even did anything wrong or could do anything better, or what parts in particular were lacking), which is why most actual long discussions tend to be talking about flaws. Dang I will readily admit that it's way easier for folks to tear something down rather than sing its praises but when people put even a little bit of effort into their posts they go way beyond just saying "I like thing" and I feel to frame it that way is pretty disingenuous The recent simulwatch threads have all been pretty awesome precisely because a bunch of people have been doing a real cool job at articulating what they like about the stuff being watched.
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Sep 18, 2015 10:21
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Even in the G-Reco thread with all the broke brain people there were still folks that typed up a lot of smart words about what they felt really made the show work.
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Sep 18, 2015 10:25
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I honestly don't get the love for Zeta. It was just more Gundam. It was a decent series, sure, but it felt like a retread of the original and half the series after it were retreads of retreads of the original burned out halfway through because I just didn't care anymore. I was going in chronological order and people retread the War is Hell adults are corrupt thing so often that you could just watch 0080 and be done with it.
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Sep 18, 2015 10:48
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Don't even need to bother watching the movie trilogy, 0080 and G-Reco do it better.
everythingWasBees fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 10:50
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A lot of what makes Zeta so loved happens in the second half, but it's definitely fair to give up before making it that far because these days 25 episodes is enough to watch two shows that are excellent from start to finish. I really wish the Zeta movies could have been to Zeta like the MSG movies were to MSG.
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Sep 18, 2015 10:55
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I'd have to rewatch it (with the better subtitles instead of those janky-rear end old ones), but these days I think I'm coming around to the idea of ZZ Gundam being more enjoyable than Zeta. When I think of the stuff I really enjoyed about Zeta a lot of it is in the final third or so, whereas the stuff I really like about ZZ is in the first 2/3rds. If only they could have been combined, somehow 
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Sep 18, 2015 11:06
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Srice posted:Dang Simulwatches are a little bit different than megathreads and normal anime threads, since usually simulwatch threads are populated by a bunch of people who are all experiencing something for the first time at the same time and since they're participating in a simulwatch there's sort of an unspoken expectation that they're going to discuss it with other simulwatch thread folks. Srice posted:Even in the G-Reco thread with all the broke brain people there were still folks that typed up a lot of smart words about what they felt really made the show work. Most of the really good analysis about the positive parts of G-Reco in that thread were response posts to people making GBS threads on the series for various reasons in an effort to explain why the series was good. The majority of those effortposts about what made G Reco work would have never have been made if not for people shouting the house down with shitposts about how G-Reco was crazy misogynistic or how Tomino was a terrible lovely writer who didn't know how to tell stories or whatever. Basically you have to take the bad with the good when it comes to nerds having heated discussions about Japanese cartoons. Kanos fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 11:13
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I think a lot of those same posts would have been made regardless. Not everyone needs to answer a call to arms to type words about a thing they like.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:16
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For a non-simulwatch example, I have seen smart posts going on in the Gatchaman thread and since it's a sequel series everyone in that thread is watching since they liked the first season.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:16
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Kanos posted:Simulwatches are a little bit different than megathreads and normal anime threads, since usually simulwatch threads are populated by a bunch of people who are all experiencing something for the first time at the same time and since they're participating in a simulwatch there's sort of an unspoken expectation that they're going to discuss it with other simulwatch thread folks. Normal threads also have an expectation of discussion, that's what a thread is, discussion. It is also possible to like something and write about why you liked it even if you didn't just see it for the first time.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:18
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Srice posted:I think a lot of those same posts would have been made regardless. It's not a call to arms mentality, it's more that generally if nobody is saying anything negative about a show in a thread most people aren't going to bother typing up a big post talking about the good stuff a show did. If people hadn't popped off about how G-Reco was super misogynistic, nobody would have bothered to go back and point out specifically how the show wasn't. If people hadn't whined about how the Kuntala racism is obviously not emphasized enough, nobody would have really bothered to post about how it's a pervading theme throughout the show. Without the impetus to do in-depth analysis like this, you tend to get simpler posts like "This show is rad as gently caress, it sure was cool when Character Did The Thing. I wonder if Character will get his upgrade next ep?" Generally the default assumption when people are posting in a fan thread for things is to assume other people like that thing and at least broadly agree with you about it until they say otherwise. Droyer posted:Normal threads also have an expectation of discussion, that's what a thread is, discussion. It is also possible to like something and write about why you liked it even if you didn't just see it for the first time. I just did that a few posts up, actually, so I know! It's just that I've observed that it simply doesn't happen a lot. Kanos fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 11:19
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Srice, is your argument literally "Nobody should complain because I am sick of seeing people complain"?
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Sep 18, 2015 11:25
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Kanos posted:"This show is rad as gently caress, it sure was cool when Character Did The Thing. I wonder if Character will get his upgrade next ep?" This kind of post is better than infinite paragraphs of the same three or four arguments over and over again.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:29
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Droyer posted:This kind of post is better than infinite paragraphs of the same three or four arguments over and over again. I guess I just fundamentally don't agree. When people discuss Char's megalomania or Zeta vs ZZ or character interactions in CCA I usually(not always) end up finding something interesting or a new perspective that makes me think about something differently. On my first watch through Unicorn I was struggling to find a character that I liked until I read ImpAtom talking about Riddhe in a way I hadn't considered, which made me go back and look at Riddhe's actions and motivations again and now he's easily my favorite character in Unicorn(and one of my favorite characters in the UC, actually). It's especially good when new voices get involved because that means new perspectives.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:38
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