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Ligur posted:Where the gently caress did you come up with the idea that I hate foreigners? Every post you've made so far on the topic has been playing coy with implementing restrictions on foreign entry and resettlement.
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Sep 18, 2015 10:48
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VitalSigns posted:Compared to 400 million Europeans, it is. I also basically agree with you, but are you joking? On a "400 million people" scale, 2% is an absolutely massive percentage, not a rounding error; a rounding error has five or six decimal places. Even if the resources might exist somewhere in Europe, they exist scattered all over the place, not necessarily under central political control. It isn't sufficient that the resources might exist in some abstract economic sense. You have to find them, somehow extract them from whatever they're embedded in, transform them into something useful for what you want to embed them in, and only then actually allocate those resources to refugees. All this has to be done within current political and democratic constraints. Best case scenario, you would be acting through national governments + EU bureaucracy with some international institutions and NGOs mixed in.  There is a limit, a soft limit, to how many refugees Europe can take, and that limit is largely contingent on our ability to solve the difficult practical, political and cultural problems that come with a massive migration wave. We can't and shouldn't shirk our humanitarian responsibility just because it might inconvenience us, but neither can we deny, ignore or underestimate these problems. The hard Right is on the wrong side of history in trying to kill the refugees with indifference, and the hard Left is on the wrong side of reality in falsely believing ideology is the hard problem. It isn't. Syrian refugees will overwhelmingly be a long-term economic benefit to the recipient countries anyway, so solving the hard problems will bring most of the moderate right on their side anyway.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:00
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Good bye europe, hope next time the US wants you to intervene in something you hop to it!
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Sep 18, 2015 11:02
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Baloogan posted:Good bye europe, hope next time the US wants you to intervene in something you hop to it! The refugees will DOOM US ALL
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Sep 18, 2015 11:06
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Ligur posted:Where the gently caress did you come up with the idea that I hate foreigners? Most of the people I work with every day are these foreigners you speak of, and I certainly don't hate them. I don't hate foreigners I don't work with, either. I simply don't care where you are from on any personal level. There's this annoying tendency to play coy and not say how one thinks the crisis should be handled, suggest dire consequences if it isn't handled that way, but again not saying what the consequences will be out loud, just present (unsourced) news and expect people to extrapolate OK I'll stop playing coy myself: I think nobody is putting in the hard work required to handle the crisis. Nobody can put the hard work required, because proper handling of this crisis will be dehumanizing (I'm thinking triage, colored tokens/ID cards, limited freedom of movement) and superficially resemble the processing of Jewish people by Nazi Germany, and heads will explode. I think this is the elephant in the room: efficient processing and moving of human beings is unnerving and we'd rather not do it (or double down on it and maybe slip in random beatings)
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Sep 18, 2015 11:08
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Baloogan posted:Good bye europe, hope next time the US wants you to intervene in something you hop to it! Certainly it'd be ironic if Europe's anti-immigration stance breeds the same kind of extremism and radicalism they'd rather avoid and then we'll see Europeans needing to make the same justifications for being let into the US that other posters are making here now on behalf of the Middle Easterners.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:14
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One of the higher-ups in the EU did actually say something along the lines of (and I'm heavily paraphrasing here because it was like a week ago): "If the Muslim world sees us welcome these refugees with open arms, giving them our kindness, I can think of no better propaganda against the Islamic State. Conversely, were the Muslim world to see how we are now closing our borders, turning away, showing no compassion... I can see no better recruitment propaganda for the Islamic State." And broadly I think he's right.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:41
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hackbunny posted:There's this annoying tendency to play coy and not say how one thinks the crisis should be handled, suggest dire consequences if it isn't handled that way, but again not saying what the consequences will be out loud, just present (unsourced) news and expect people to extrapolate Okay, that's a, uhh solution. I've posted this several times before, but I'll do it again. I don't think the solution is to move the populations from crisis countries to Europe to be dehumanized (or otherwise) here. That will not stop the crisis, and it is also a job that cannot be finished, ever, if Europe receives and takes in 1 million asylum seekers this year, 2 will follow the next. We're not going to "run out of" people who live in poor or chaotic conditions or both who will try seeking asylum in the EU as an option as long as it is available. Yeah I know everyone is not coming and most don't even want to leave home, but only a fraction of the poor of the world would wreck Europe as we know it. And please, please nobody start with the "but we need youth, because Europe old" -argument when there is an Europe wide youth employment problem already, adding in millions of immigrants is not helping it's the opposite. I repeat, Europe has a problem because we don't have jobs like we used to. Globalization and automatization are slowly making the entry level or low wage jobs youth and immigrants used obsolete. There are no more factory lines you can show the Syrians, go work there. What EU should do right now is follow Australia and make it clear if you illegally enter Europe and request asylum, you will be simply returned, post haste, you will not be given a residence permit. That would stop most of the smuggling business very soon. Some would still try, but word moves around very fast in this age and day. If it was clear illegally crossing the border and then requesting asylum would be an automatic fail, crossing the border would stop in a matter of months. The immense resources we now spend on handling asylum seekers in Europe should be diverted to enhancing the conditions for refugees in the near countries of their origin - where most of them already are and where most of them will also stay anyway. (IIRC Sweden uses much of the money slotted for foreign aid and development to handle asylum seekers in Sweden instead, efficient?) I'm not by far some renegade thinker, there's a nice bunch of researchers and specialists on the topic who think along these lines, I'm just repeating them because to me it makes the most sense. Adding in even 1/10 of the asylum seekers on the move in ME and North-Africa will be a devastating economic blow to EU and still leave 9/10 over there. (And sooner or later cultural, and yes, I know D&D has a lot of posters who scoff at "culture" and simply make mockery of people who care about such things to the tune of "u think mooslems are smelly!" and no Charlie Hebdo attack will wake them up. They can have their view, I will have mine). IMO best to try to limit the damage to Europe while trying to make sure the 10/10 who stay are helped to the best of our ability. Helping "to the best of our ability" is NOT taking them in to live poorly on welfare benefits in an alien environment. Also, 5 minutes ago another article was published about refugees, unhappy and angry in the spaces that were erected for them, with volunteer help as emergency measure. They thought they were arriving to a land of milk and honey. The smugglers say you will get a house, a car, a job, there are plenty of women. It is infuriating, these people are obviously sold lies to gain from their plight and they are understandably mad when the truth emerges. It's also our fault for running this system that enables it to begin with. Oh yeah, everyone. There are no good or humane solutions to this. Only bad ones and then even worse. Unfortunately when it comes to the current migration wave towards EU it is an "us or them" scenario. We have our own corner of the world. Others have theirs. We can't "fix" a place like the Middle-East. The people there have to do it. We can give bandaid, help run camps for displaced, etc but we can't fix their poo poo. Even less with Sub-Saharan Africa where and increasing amount of asylum seekers are coming from according to EU officials. Yeah, gently caress USA for bombing some countries to hell and making the problems worse, hope they don't do anything like that again soon. (I also hope people in D&D at large would have figured out far before now that if you replace a dictator in North-Africa or Middle-East with smart bombs and missiles, you will just get something worse or as bad at best as a replacement.)
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Sep 18, 2015 11:53
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Tesseraction posted:One of the higher-ups in the EU did actually say something along the lines of (and I'm heavily paraphrasing here because it was like a week ago): So the Islamic state doing what it is isn't already enough to convince the Muslim world? The "higher-up" who said that suffers from the terrible calamity of eurocentrism in that he/she thinks the Muslim world somehow operates and is heavily influenced by things we do and say in Europe. (I have noticed American posters, on the other hand, often think what USA does somehow causes whatever happens in the "Muslim world" which is funny as hell.) I boardly think that it is not. From what I've read and become to think, apart from fanatics, the Muslim world is not supportive or is horrified about the Islamic state already, and what we do with our borders is not very relevant to that view.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:00
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quote:What EU should do right now is follow Australia and make it clear if you illegally enter Europe and request asylum, you will be simply returned, post haste, you will not be given a residence permit. That would stop most of the smuggling business very soon. Some would still try, but word moves around very fast in this age and day. If it was clear illegally crossing the border and then requesting asylum would be an automatic fail, crossing the border would stop in a matter of months. You sound like our (Australia) lying politicians and professional dumbasses who don't seem to get that it isn't illegal to seek asylum. You cannot seek asylum 'illegally'. Get a new talking point.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:07
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Starshark posted:You sound like our (Australia) lying politicians and professional dumbasses who don't seem to get that it isn't illegal to seek asylum. You cannot seek asylum 'illegally'. Get a new talking point. Huh? First off, I wrote illegally crossing the border, nothing about illegally requesting asylum? Second. Come on, don't pull that semantics poo poo on anyone. What I'm suggesting is that if you smuggle yourself over the EU border, travel through many safe countries, and finally make your travel documents vanish and request asylum it should be made clear you won't get one. You sound like our (European) lying activists who want to alter language and meanings by making statements like "a person cannot be illegal, therefore there cannot be illegal immigration" even though it's obvious nobody is trying to argue a person who exists can be "illegal", only saying someone who hops over customs without a visa is in the country illegally.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:21
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Bringing back Gaddafi's rape camps is the price to be paid for protecting Europe.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:23
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Ligur posted:So the Islamic state doing what it is isn't already enough to convince the Muslim world? Yeah not one single person from Europe has run off to join the Islamic State. Not a single one. Ligur posted:The "higher-up" who said that suffers from the terrible calamity of eurocentrism in that he/she thinks the Muslim world somehow operates and is heavily influenced by things we do and say in Europe. (I have noticed American posters, on the other hand, often think what USA does somehow causes whatever happens in the "Muslim world" which is funny as hell.) You are assuming they meant the Arab Gulf. That was not what they meant. Ligur posted:I boardly think that it is not. Judging by half the poo poo you link I'm assuming Stormfront. More seriously, the person was not referring to the Arabian Peninsula, they were referring to Muslims all over the world. Starshark posted:You sound like our (Australia) lying politicians and professional dumbasses who don't seem to get that it isn't illegal to seek asylum. You cannot seek asylum 'illegally'. Get a new talking point. He just knows the fourteen words don't fly around here.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:24
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Ligur posted:Huh? First off, I wrote illegally crossing the border, nothing about illegally requesting asylum? We've had this debate in Australia already. It's not illegal to cross other 'safe' countries to claim asylum in another one. It is not illegal to seek asylum. Look, I'll even throw you a bone - you want to abandon this line of attack and do what our politicians do and pretend you're saving lives by sending them back to their place of origin.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:30
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Tesseraction posted:Yeah not one single person from Europe has run off to join the Islamic State. Not a single one. What? They have, but what on earth that has to do with our border controls and how the "Muslim world" sees us? quote:You are assuming they meant the Arab Gulf. That was not what they meant. No, I'm assuming the Muslim world. WTF? I don't think most of the Muslim world is really interested in EU border controls and most of the Muslim world probably won't change their views on ISIS based on what EU does with it's borders. The idea is absurd. quote:Judging by half the poo poo you link I'm assuming Stormfront. More seriously, the person was not referring to the Arabian Peninsula, they were referring to Muslims all over the world. I wrote most it seems the Muslim world is not supportive or is horrified about the Islamic state already and the first thing that comes to your mind is Stormfront  Hey, I've been linking friggin' Nordic newspapers, not some internet tinfoilhat sites. Then more seriously, I repeat what I wrote above.edit: Starshark posted:We've had this debate in Australia already. It's not illegal to cross other 'safe' countries to claim asylum in another one. It is not illegal to seek asylum. Yes I know. Doesn't change my view that moving population to Europe is not a good or efficient solution to various problems in Europe's neighbouring areas. About that saving lives things, nobody is sending anyone to a warzone. There is a lot of things between "an apartment in Helsinki, Finland" and "trenches in Kobane". Ligur fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 12:35
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Starshark posted:We've had this debate in Australia already. It's not illegal to cross other 'safe' countries to claim asylum in another one. It is not illegal to seek asylum. Look, I'll even throw you a bone - you want to abandon this line of attack and do what our politicians do and pretend you're saving lives by sending them back to their place of origin. It really depends on your definition of "illegal" and the punishment what kind of punishment for this kind of behavior you are envisioning. It is currently the law of the land in the EU that refugees have to apply for asylum in the first EU country they set foot in and it seems like this directive will get enforced more and more in the future, unless a new system gets introduced. We are in this lovely situation because the lack of enforcement of the Dublin treaty led to a situation where they countries that needed to enforce their borders (especially Greece) stopped doing their job and just let the refugee's in with the clear intention of letting them go on to Germany/Sweden, who can't enforce their borders in the same way because of Schengen. What we are going to see now in a slow process is that every EU member state will close its borders until the refugees are once again either stopped by the actual border countries.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:40
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GaussianCopula posted:It really depends on your definition of "illegal" and the punishment what kind of punishment for this kind of behavior you are envisioning. IIRC there's a clause about 'effective protection' so if you're going to an Eastern EU country that simply can't look after you, you have the right to move on to another country.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:42
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Effectronica posted:It's cool how social mobility suddenly becomes evil when nonwhites try to do it. Sure, there was no backlash when Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians were moving to England. It's almost as if the principles of EU that regard freedom of movement were very specifically designed to deal with movement WITHIN the EEC, and that with every broadening of the Communities fears arose about the effects of the wider internal space, as well as about the sustainability of the new EU frontier. In short, freedom of movement was instituted to ensure a more efficient internal economic development of the member states, with the collateral condition that members retain full intergovernmental control over the policy, in order to ensure it doesn't produce negative externalities. It's never been a humanitarian or a charity project, and always was scrutinized against unforeseen consequences, whether the perceived problems were caused by whites or non-whites.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:44
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VitalSigns posted:Compared to 400 million Europeans, it is. I'd like to see the US absorb the entirety of the Mexico City in a year, with no regulation and oversight to speak of, and watch the results.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:46
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GaussianCopula posted:We are in this lovely situation because the lack of enforcement of the Dublin treaty led to a situation where they countries that needed to enforce their borders (especially Greece) stopped doing their job and just let the refugee's in with the clear intention of letting them go on to Germany/Sweden, who can't enforce their borders in the same way because of Schengen. Ahaha you gotta be loving kidding me. The Dublin agreement is meaningless in a refugee crisis of this scale. It's not a question of will, the border countries literally cannot enforce their borders and the smugly safely-distanced (until recently) countries didn't want to help. To be perfectly honest, I'm skeptical you'd be able to prevent people from crossing even if all of EU pitched in barring like a huge wall around eastern Thrace and a permanent naval blockade of Turkish and Levantine ports and coastline.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:48
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Ligur posted:What? They have, but what on earth that has to do with our border controls and how the "Muslim world" sees us? You replied to something I quoted with an incorrect interpretation of it and used it to wax lyrical about Eurocentrism when you were wrong about the quote. As to the crux of the issue: the person is saying the treatment of these Syrian refugees is making European countries look increasingly Islamaphobic. Especially with people like you who complain about how the uncivilised Syrians are selfish and cannot assimilate into the Pure White Culture of, in you case, Scandinavia.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:49
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steinrokkan posted:Sure, there was no backlash when Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians were moving to England. The sad thing is that plenty of people who actually interact with said immigrants actually talk about how they make the British civilians seem ill-educated and ignorant. In particular the children work hardest in school and often do the best. Meanwhile the Daily Mail finds a picture of a Polish worker picking their nose and runs it front page.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:53
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SaltyJesus posted:Ahaha you gotta be loving kidding me. The Dublin agreement is meaningless in a refugee crisis of this scale. It's not a question of will, the border countries literally cannot enforce their borders and the smugly safely-distanced (until recently) countries didn't want to help. To be perfectly honest, I'm skeptical you'd be able to prevent people from crossing even if all of EU pitched in barring like a huge wall around eastern Thrace and a permanent naval blockade of Turkish and Levantine ports and coastline. I think the only realistic way would be to set up advanced checkpoints in Lebanon, Turkey etc., so that as many refugees as possible can be approached and processed before the smugglers disperse them all around the place and kill half of them in the process.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:54
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Whatever the solution it cannot fall solely on the shoulders of Germany/Sweden or the border states. On this I think all agree.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:55
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Tesseraction posted:As to the crux of the issue: the person is saying the treatment of these Syrian refugees is making European countries look increasingly Islamaphobic. This is a pretty dumb worry. The more basic danger is that Europe will lose legitimacy. Aside from a moral duty, I think it's necessary to admit in part of the refugees to justify ourselves ("Europe will not help them, so why should we in Lebanon/Turkey/the Gulf/America help?").
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Sep 18, 2015 12:56
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Starshark posted:You sound like our (Australia) lying politicians and professional dumbasses who don't seem to get that it isn't illegal to seek asylum. You cannot seek asylum 'illegally'. Get a new talking point. Well the Australians had a decent idea, if people are dying taking boats trying to get asylum, then the easiest solution is to stop the boats. There aren't any more photos of sad photos of dead kids on the Austrialian coast, because Australia shut down the human traffickers.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:57
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Just in case you didn't see it because I edited the quote in later, I was replying to GaussianCopula not you, steinrokkan. But yeah, the advanced checkpoints thing makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately it would not only need the EU to come together for a joint refugee resettlement effort but also work the logistic kinks out with the countries hosting the checkpoints.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a pretty dumb worry. I wouldn't say so, at least in the UK the shrill complaints of our media about Muslims has really alienated the Muslim population, and this refugee crisis is doing the same because until Aylan Kurdi's body washed ashore it was all headlines about ISLAMS COMING FOR OUR BENEFITS. Even now it's still like that.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:58
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thrakkorzog posted:Well the Australians had a decent idea, if people are dying taking boats trying to get asylum, then the easiest solution is to stop the boats. There aren't any more photos of sad photos of dead kids on the Austrialian coast, because Australia shut down the human traffickers. Except they didn't, the boats are still coming, only no-one's allowed to report on them as they are 'on water matters'. Don't believe the hype. In fact, the Australian government are doing so well at stopping the people smuggling trade they're actually paying the people smugglers to turn back (see my post history in this thread for the link). Now they're getting paid twice per customer!
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Sep 18, 2015 12:59
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steinrokkan posted:I'd like to see the US absorb the entirety of the Mexico City in a year, with no regulation and oversight to speak of, and watch the results. You (and some other people) are taking this more strongly than I meant it. I didn't mean it'd be super easy and required no planning, only that fears of them bankrupting one of the world's largest economic zone, somehow taking over an area fifty times them in population, or even noticeably affecting the living standards of the average European on the street are absolutely ridiculous, sorry for being unclear. And the US was 14% foreign born in 1870 btw, so we already did that in percentage terms and it wasn't the end of civilization, although I would expect that modern transportation, communications, and government organization would do a much better job in 2015 than we did in 1870.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:03
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Tesseraction posted:I wouldn't say so, at least in the UK the shrill complaints of our media about Muslims has really alienated the Muslim population, and this refugee crisis is doing the same because until Aylan Kurdi's body washed ashore it was all headlines about ISLAMS COMING FOR OUR BENEFITS. Even now it's still like that. Uou have a point, but it's a question o fhow migrants are treated and not whether or not they're allowed to pass borders. I tink you can have a humane border policy, as difficult as it is. e: VitalSigns posted:You (and some other people) are taking this more strongly than I meant it. I didn't mean it'd be super easy and required no planning, only that fears of them bankrupting one of the world's largest economic zone, somehow taking over an area fifty times them in population, or even noticeably affecting the living standards of the average European on the street are absolutely ridiculous, sorry for being unclear. The US had an economy ripe for expansion by immigrant labour. There is no expansion to be had in Europe. We can certainly settle many refugees, but we can't lie about how difficult it will be. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 13:04
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Tesseraction posted:Especially with people like you who complain about how the uncivilised Syrians are selfish and cannot assimilate into the Pure White Culture of, in you case, Scandinavia. It's just that I have not "complained" about those things. Yeah I did say it's conflicting that people who are purportedly escaping immediate death, starvation and others horrors they encounter in Sweden are unhappy they didn't get the nice apartment from the city of their choosing, and protest it so much as to refuse to leave their transport. Or in some case even head directly back home when they find out they don't get a job and a flat in Helsinki right off the bat (like 200 Iraqis did here as of late). If they are escaping torture, being bombed and killed, as the whole refugee/migrant crisis is being sold to the majority of the population, sure it sounds odd they wish to return home almost immediately just because Finland didn't give them the lifestyle they But that's not nearly saying "Syrians are uncivilized" and selfish and the Pure White Culture thing is only in your frigging head. Again I ask, are you some sort of closet racist trying to do penance, or what's with the constant references to races, white supremacy etc. esp. when the people you respond to have clearly not discussed such things or are not even interested in them?
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Sep 18, 2015 13:04
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Ligur posted:
Then what's your objection to Syrians settling in Finland?
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Sep 18, 2015 13:06
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Starshark posted:Then what's your objection to Syrians settling in Finland? There are almost no Syrians settling in Finland to speak off. I heard the few that do might have a pretty good education and might speak English, so the only objection I have is that we don't really have much in the way of jobs to offer to even our own citizens so they might have to live on welfare benefits and taxpayer funded housing for quite a long time.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:09
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You have a point, but it's a question of how migrants are treated and not whether or not they're allowed to pass borders. I think you can have a humane border policy, as difficult as it is. I agree. The person in question was referencing things like Hungary's fence and whatnot.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:10
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Ligur posted:There are almost no Syrians settling in Finland to speak off. I heard the few that do might have a pretty good education and might speak English, so the only objection I have is that we don't really have much in the way of jobs to offer to even our own citizens so they might have to live on welfare benefits and taxpayer funded housing for quite a long time. I'm sure they'll manage and the extra immigrants will be a boost to your economy. You can relax.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:11
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In the UK migrants are more likely to be in work or self employed than non migrants, and on average cost less to the state, so I think most of the economic arguments are pretty flimsy looking.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:16
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pointsofdata posted:In the UK migrants are more likely to be in work or self employed than non migrants, and on average cost less to the state, so I think most of the economic arguments are pretty flimsy looking. Finland has very low employment rates among large refugee groups. It's not due to simple lack of tolerance, the economy just can't employ them.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:19
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Ligur posted:Okay, that's a, uhh solution. It's not a solution, it's crisis management. In a trainwreck or other major accident, people are processed like tech support tickets and it's understood that this is necessary. Is it understood, I wonder? will the lay person understand that, say, the guy screaming in pain is not being ignored out of callousness but because the next guy has lost consciousness? Will people scream "profiling" if we sorted refugees by country of origin? if we instituted multiple levels of questioning for processing dubious claims? if, god forbid, we started printing temporary "refugee cards" that acted as tokens to avoid processing the same person twice? (and given how unreliable Syrian passports with all the cheap fakes) There's an interesting article (and later book) by an Italian journalist who posed as an Armenian (IIRC) refugee to see the inside of the immigrant processing pipeline. Surprisingly no violence, but the whole thing was handled by the Italian police and they weren't shy about how much they despised foreigners (not shy about being literal fascists either); of course they didn't know one of the "refugees" was an Italian in disguise, but I doubt the language barrier was enough to hide their contempt. Anyway, it was mostly a show of incompetence: bad translators, superficial interviews, sloppy and lazy police work (the journalist's fingerprints were already in the database under another name - another fake identity he used for a previous article - but nothing came of it), terribly managed camps. The guy, afraid he could stay there forever, went to a pay phone and started dialing random toll free numbers, hoping to speak with some NGO, but again he was confronted with total ignorance of the law and no awareness of the seriousness of the situation - deers in headlights. In the end, he was deported, meaning he was moved to a train station with some cash and a piece of paper that said he was officially deported, and just left there unattended. He bought train tickets for himself and some similarly "deported" kids whom for some reason were left with him, and went home His backstory for his fair skin, if you were wondering and if anyone asked (they didn't) is that he was of Bosnian descent. His backstory for only speaking English was that he wouldn't speak the language of his oppressors. The slightest degree of cultural competency on the region would have had him busted immediately, but there wasn't the slightest degree of competency. Even if he was busted (he was! remember the fingerprints?), what would they have done? The same they would do anyway of course: tell him to deport himself I'm absolutely sure that similarly absurd scenes are replaying right now, x1000 Ligur posted:And please, please nobody start with the "but we need youth, because Europe old" -argument when there is an Europe wide youth employment problem already, adding in millions of immigrants is not helping it's the opposite. I repeat, Europe has a problem because we don't have jobs like we used to I agree 100% although we probably disagree on the causes and solutions. But yes this is the issue, Europe is just coming out of a long depression and these people are coming at a terrible time. The privatization drives of the 80s and 90s, the awkward management of the Euro, the emergency deregulation and defunding measures of the past years mean the old solutions (printing money, creating infrastructure/maintenance jobs, etc.) are no longer usable, and the old ideologies aren't really applicable anymore (and the new ideologies are still in the tinfoil hat phase) Ligur posted:What EU should do right now is follow Australia and make it clear if you illegally enter Europe and request asylum, you will be simply returned, post haste, you will not be given a residence permit. How do you do that? First, proving who entered illegally, second returning them (return them where?) For extra credit, what's a politically acceptable way to do it? Ligur posted:(And sooner or later cultural, and yes, I know D&D has a lot of posters who scoff at "culture" and simply make mockery of people who care about such things to the tune of "u think mooslems are smelly!" and no Charlie Hebdo attack will wake them up. They can have their view, I will have mine) This is the incredibly irrelevant poo poo you should probably keep to yourself because it paints the rest of your argument in poo poo tones
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Sep 18, 2015 13:19
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pointsofdata posted:In the UK migrants are more likely to be in work or self employed than non migrants, and on average cost less to the state, so I think most of the economic arguments are pretty flimsy looking. Obviously that means they're taking the jobs of citizens.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:21
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