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Starshark posted:I'm sure they'll manage and the extra immigrants will be a boost to your economy. You can relax. Most of the asylum seekers we receive are Iraqi and Somali. Both are worse educated on average than Syrians with the latter often having no formal education and even illiterate. That's not a good start to contribute to a society like Finland. For some reason, the Arab media has been on fire lately telling how Finland is especially good for exactly Iraqis (get a nice house, job, immediately, family unification, everything, and fast). Nobody really knows where it even started. Perhaps the smugglers have a part in it, dunno. At least they advertise using pictures of Finnish cruise ships... Anyway. Iraqi and somali employment rate has been around 15% plus/minus a little (meaning the vast majority of them are outside of the workforce for some reason or other, or unemployed) as long as they've been here (Somalis since the early 90s so I don't think "things will suddenly turn around"). As we're going through a long recession and an even longer time of no or negative growth, and we already have those 400 000 unemployed here I mentioned already. Most of those 400 000 will have far better chances of landing a job than asylum seekers who gain a residence permit. In Finland, to get a job outside of IT, it's really important to 1) speak fluent Finnish 2) Have a formal (Western) education 3) Have work experience you can prove. Asylum seekers who gain residence permit by and large cannot fill these requirements  I'm quite afraid there is no mathematical equation that can be used to say that the asylum seekers coming here will "boost" our economy. I'm not relaxing.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:25
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Finland has very low employment rates among large refugee groups. It's not due to simple lack of tolerance, the economy just can't employ them. Uh-huh. Ligur posted:Most of the asylum seekers we receive are Iraqi and Somali. Both are worse educated on average than Syrians with the latter often having no formal education and even illiterate. That's not a good start to contribute to a society like Finland. For some reason, the Arab media has been on fire lately telling how Finland is especially good for exactly Iraqis (get a nice house, job, immediately, family unification, everything, and fast). Nobody really knows where it even started. Perhaps the smugglers have a part in it, dunno. At least they advertise using pictures of Finnish cruise ships... Anyway. So you're saying that since the 90's, the Somalis have been unable to get education to participate in the workforce?  I think you need to face a few realities about your country, and it ain't the fault of the Somalis and Iraqis. Unless you can point to the gene they have that says they don't want to work or get educated.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:29
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Around Iraq(i)s, never relax(i)
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Sep 18, 2015 13:29
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It's real weird to go on about how sad you are that Iraqi refugees will have trouble learning the language and finding work in Finland while arguing we should ship them back to be beheaded by ISIS. "Wouldn't want you to have a spot of trouble finding work and have to depend on handouts and learn another language, how tough it would be for you *sigh* just go get burned at the stake by fanatics it's for your own good "
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Sep 18, 2015 13:34
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VitalSigns posted:It's real weird to go on about how sad you are that Iraqi refugees will have trouble learning the language and finding work in Finland while arguing we should ship them back to be beheaded by ISIS. You just can't find jobs for blacks and Iraqis. They can't do the same work that white people can do. Even after two and a half decades.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:37
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HRW raises an interesting comparison between Hungary's actions over this and the treatment they received when fleeing the wrath of the Soviet Union following the revolution of 1956:
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Sep 18, 2015 13:39
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Starshark posted:So you're saying that since the 90's, the Somalis have been unable to get education to participate in the workforce? IIRC those who came in the 90s ain't doing that bad. The ones who came in the 00s and later are. For some reason, our larger refugee groups don't do very well at school Many fail and stop at high school stages. I don't know why, there's speculation, like parents not appreciating education/not working therefore not setting an example and whatnot. Also 2nd generation immigrants appear, according to reports, often quite alienated. Their parents who came as refugees are fine with what they got, but now the 2nd generation kids are not happy with their lot anymore. Also we get the occasional but steady stream of news pieces about parents form conservative places like Somalia or Iraq not letting their kids grow into "Finnish culture" so they get caught between. Somali girls can't do what their classmates can on their free time, not even what their brothers can, that type of stuff.So yeah, we're not very good at integrating East-Africans and Iraqis. That doesn't change the fact they have very high unemployment numbers and those who came here young or are 2nd generation already do not do very well at school. I frankly don't know what exactly is going on. If you think "ahhah, the obvious problem is racism" it can't explain all of it. Ethiopians are pretty well employed in Finland. So are Ghanalese and Nigerians. IIRC Kenyans and Nepalese completely blow Finns out of the water when it comes to employment percentages, and in a good way! So it can't be all "racist Finns oppressing the brown and black man by not giving them jobs" either. Starshark posted:You just can't find jobs for blacks and Iraqis. They can't do the same work that white people can do. Even after two and a half decades. But this just ain't true or nearly as black and white. We already have a ton of black people and also Asians working here. My boss was a black lady, for a while. For some reason Somalis just do very bad. You guys are talking like it's somehow my fault almost? Ligur fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 13:42
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Ligur posted:
Do you have figures for all this? I can't find this myself - I can't even find figures for employment by ethnicity in Australia and am starting to wonder who would bother keeping such statistics. E: But besides that, this isn't anything new to an Australian. Only fifteen years ago we were rabidly racist against "Asians" (by which we meant the Chinese, the Vietnamese and the Japanese - but 'Asians' was the catch-all). Now we don't even blink at them. Before that we were racist against the Italians and Greeks even though they look pretty much white. Racism doesn't have a logic to it - you can even have people married to Africans who are still racist against Africans. Starshark fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 13:45
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computer parts posted:Obviously that means they're taking the jobs of citizens. If you've been a victim of slavery or human trafficking, you're allowed to stay for 6 months and work as, and only as, a domestic worker. Then you get deported. We do do some stuff to protect our citizens from lazy foreigners stealing jobs!
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Sep 18, 2015 13:48
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Starshark posted:Uh-huh. Well, the refugees were happy to get free rent from the state, without actually having to bother to learn Finnish. And trying to force them to learn the local language was racist somehow. If you want to live in Finland, then learn Finnish goddamn it.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:49
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computer parts posted:Obviously that means they're taking the jobs of citizens. Here in Italy there's a paradox of people protesting that foreigners work too hard, and grabbing onto the flimsiest excuses (security!) to limit the opening hours of foreigner-owned businesses. I'm sure everyone works under the assumption that, say, hard work and personal sacrifice are objectively good. Turns out it's only "good" if framed in a very specific narrative
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Sep 18, 2015 13:50
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thrakkorzog posted:Well, the refugees were happy to get free rent from the state, without actually having to bother to learn Finnish. And trying to force them to learn the local language was racist somehow. LOL this is like 1990's Australian racism all over again. Or maybe those facebook memes by the "Britain First" mob.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:52
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Starshark posted:Do you have figures for all this? I can't find this myself - I can't even find figures for employment by ethnicity in Australia and am starting to wonder who would bother keeping such statistics. You can find some figures quickly, even in this thread!  Check this post for example, it has a bunch of numbers. Search for "2010" it has a link to Finnish statistics. And like the post states, even though some Africans groups are pretty well employed, even in 2013 before we were slumping this bad 38% of Africans (who are included in the workforce in the fist place) were unemployed :\ Not good for economy
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Sep 18, 2015 13:53
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New UK Immigration bill is worth a look. Highlights are: -New offence of Illegal Working -New offence for driving with wrong immigration status -Requirement for landlords to check immigration status -landlords can evict without a court order if they believe the tenant has incorrect immigration status -Banks etc must do the same Oh yeah, and appeals against these decisions, and others, can only be made out of country! http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/blog/2015/09/immigration-bill-2015-what-you-need-know
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Sep 18, 2015 13:53
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VitalSigns posted:You (and some other people) are taking this more strongly than I meant it. I didn't mean it'd be super easy and required no planning, only that fears of them bankrupting one of the world's largest economic zone, somehow taking over an area fifty times them in population, or even noticeably affecting the living standards of the average European on the street are absolutely ridiculous, sorry for being unclear. I basically agree, unfortunately there are posters who unironically argue for just unconditionally opening the BTW, citizens and immigrants who registered an intention to become a citizen would be granted something like 60 ha of land under the Homestead Acts in 1870, that's something I fear no advancement in infrastructure can replace - left to sell their marketable skills in a country whose language they most likely don't speak very well, these migrants may well end up the same way as East Asian migrants to the 19th ct. USA: Poorly treated day labourers. At least for any foreseeable future. E: That's not a reason to ship them back, of course, just saying that comparing immigration stats from 19th century with today doesn't make much sense to me. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 13:54
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pointsofdata posted:-landlords can evict without a court order if they believe the tenant has incorrect immigration status oh wow, this will in no way be abused, no siree
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Sep 18, 2015 13:56
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Ligur posted:You can find some figures quickly, even in this thread! Finnish statistics in... FInnish. Oh well, have to take your word for it. As I said in the rest of my post, it's not a slam-dunk that your country isn't racist. Don't worry, you're not alone! My country is also quite racist which is why I've seen your particular brand of bullshit all before. If your country is ready to find jobs for Syrians and Iraqis, they can find jobs for Syrians and Iraqis.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:56
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pointsofdata posted:New UK Immigration bill is worth a look. Highlights are: Chinese Legalism all over again.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:58
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pointsofdata posted:If you've been a victim of slavery or human trafficking, you're allowed to stay for 6 months and work as, and only as, a domestic worker. Then you get deported. We do do some stuff to protect our citizens from lazy foreigners stealing jobs! Plus the jobs they're 'taking' from the local population are the lovely jobs Britons refuse to do for the wages that are offered. It's decent pay for many immigrants because their wages back home were shittier than ours. thrakkorzog posted:If you want to live in Finland, then learn Finnish goddamn it. Back in my long-haired metalhead days I wanted to learn Finnish but my god how many loving vowels does a word need?! In the end I just made friends with a Finn and had him translate bullshit I wanted to read.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:58
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Starshark posted:Finnish statistics in... FInnish. Oh well, have to take your word for it. As I said in the rest of my post, it's not a slam-dunk that your country isn't racist. Don't worry, you're not alone! My country is also quite racist which is why I've seen your particular brand of bullshit all before. If your country is ready to find jobs for Syrians and Iraqis, they can find jobs for Syrians and Iraqis. Don't worry, if I was lying the Finnish posters would come and correct me. But I don't know if you missed it, but our country is in the throes of a long recession (like, the goverment is trying to fix something and today I couldn't get to work because everyone is on strike) and we already have 400k+ unemployed Finns. Things have been this bad only during the -93 recession when we had to devalue our currency. If we can't find jobs for Finns who are mostly educated workers and former taxpayers, how on earth we are going to find jobs for Iraqis and Somalians just by being "ready to find jobs"  (Syrians don't really matter in this discussion as we have a couple of hundred of them, like.)edit: oh and, also, what is the "bullshit" in what I'm saying here? Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 14:02
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SaltyJesus posted:oh wow, this will in no way be abused, no siree It already was. British citizens with foreign-sounding names or accents were threatened with eviction because they didn't have a passport to hand.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:02
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Tesseraction posted:Back in my long-haired metalhead days I wanted to learn Finnish but my god how many loving vowels does a word need?! In the end I just made friends with a Finn and had him translate bullshit I wanted to read. Unfortunately for immigrants learning Finnish probably isn't a matter of hobby, but rather a matter of being able to find qualified work. Even in, say, state institutions start providing multilingual services, not speaking the local language will be a limiting factor in dealing with any private subject.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:05
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That's why given the choice I'd invest quite heavily in language learning and integration schemes. As for employment, I suppose I'd try and find out what these people were before they sought refuge and see if their job can be 'transplanted' or, failing that, what skills can be transferred. At the very least converting some of them into teachers would solve two issues at once.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:25
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steinrokkan posted:Unfortunately for immigrants learning Finnish probably isn't a matter of hobby, but rather a matter of being able to find qualified work. Even in, say, state institutions start providing multilingual services, not speaking the local language will be a limiting factor in dealing with any private subject. Yup. You can find jobs in the IT sector or certain specialist fields with English only but for the most part, no.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:26
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Tesseraction posted:That's why given the choice I'd invest quite heavily in language learning and integration schemes. As for employment, I suppose I'd try and find out what these people were before they sought refuge and see if their job can be 'transplanted' or, failing that, what skills can be transferred. At the very least converting some of them into teachers would solve two issues at once. Oh yeah. Everyone really thinks learning language is the top 1 priority. It's doable even without heavy investment, if someone wants to, but if we heavily invest that should be the top investment. Edit: our prime minister just came out and said the migrant influx is currrently a bigger issue than our long economical plight 
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Sep 18, 2015 14:29
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VitalSigns posted:Compared to 400 million Europeans, it is. Pack it up guys, forums poster VitalSigns not only is the refugee crisis not a crisis, it's not even a problem! Housing, feeding, and educating 9 million people is not a problem. Thanks Vitalsigns.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:29
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hackbunny posted:Here in Italy there's a paradox of people protesting that foreigners work too hard, and grabbing onto the flimsiest excuses (security!) to limit the opening hours of foreigner-owned businesses. I'm sure everyone works under the assumption that, say, hard work and personal sacrifice are objectively good. Turns out it's only "good" if framed in a very specific narrative This is a race issue not a class issue om shanti shanti shanti this is a race issue not a class issue ommmmm race issue not class issue ohmmm race issue not class issue ohmmm Seriously this thread is just dancing on outrage; any attempt to discuss policies towards and consequences of the migration just gets lost in the latest thing to get outraged about. And we have outrage about even things that obviously are not racism: Italian workers do not want their wages and hours undercut. That's not a racist motivation, and in fact it's one that most posters in this thread would be sympathetic to if it wasn't put of the outrage of the moment. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 14:34
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Arglebargle III posted:Pack it up guys, forums poster VitalSigns not only is the refugee crisis not a crisis, it's not even a problem! Housing, feeding, and educating 9 million people is not a problem. Thanks Vitalsigns. Same, but unironically. EU *can* afford this, the actual problem is it doesn't want to. Which is going to be really cool in a couple months, when there's refugees in tents and it's -20 outside.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:41
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Arglebargle III posted:This is a race issue not a class issue om shanti shanti shanti this is a race issue not a class issue ommmmm race issue not class issue ohmmm race issue not class issue ohmmm lmao
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Sep 18, 2015 14:41
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Truga posted:Same, but unironically. Okay the subtext was supposed to be that it's ridiculous to call this not a problem. Aid workers will need to be trained, teachers will need to be retrained, classroom aids will need to be trained and put in schools, housing will need to be found (what, is the government going to just buy up empty inventory? seize empty homes? build new units?) transportation will have to be provided, job training programs, adult language classes, vaccination programs, food distribution to temporary camps... the list goes on and on and this is assuming they just find the money to pay for all of it. And finding the money may be the least technically difficult problem but they haven't even gotten to that stage yet. It's weird to see people saying that this problem is not a problem because Europe should be able to deploy vast resources to fix it. If you have the richest continent on Earth deploying vast resources to fix something... isn't it a problem?
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Sep 18, 2015 14:50
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Ligur posted:Edit: our prime minister just came out and said the migrant influx is currrently a bigger issue than our long economical plight What are these changes to employment T&C that's causing your mass demonstrations at the moment anyway? Did your government try legalising whippings or something?
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Sep 18, 2015 14:58
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay the subtext was supposed to be that it's ridiculous to call this not a problem. Aid workers will need to be trained, teachers will need to be retrained, classroom aids will need to be trained and put in schools, housing will need to be found (what, is the government going to just buy up empty inventory? seize empty homes? build new units?) transportation will have to be provided, job training programs, adult language classes, vaccination programs, food distribution to temporary camps... the list goes on and on and this is assuming they just find the money to pay for all of it. And finding the money may be the least technically difficult problem but they haven't even gotten to that stage yet. To be fair you are attacking a strawman, Vitalsigns only said it isn't impossible and wont bankrupt any country.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:58
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Tesseraction posted:What are these changes to employment T&C that's causing your mass demonstrations at the moment anyway? Did your government try legalising whippings or something? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/16/finland-economy-pm-idUSL5N11M4ED20150916
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Sep 18, 2015 15:02
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Yeah facing that kind of kick in the balls I'd strike too.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:15
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The EU probably has the resources to fix any one problem, but if it would do so, they money would be taken away from people who are supposed to receive it right now and would be very irritated by this new development. It's a question of how much resources you can redirect before people are really pissed and start to become angry.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:15
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Over 18 trillion dollars, going by the absolute lack of anger the tax haven revelations caused back in 2013 or so.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:16
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Fake edit: ^^^ lmaoGaussianCopula posted:The EU probably has the resources to fix any one problem, but if it would do so, they money would be taken away from people who are supposed to receive it right now and would be very irritated by this new development. I'll take some irritated people over some dead people.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:18
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Tesseraction posted:Over 18 trillion dollars, going by the absolute lack of anger the tax haven revelations caused back in 2013 or so. (But it's *not* a class issue.)
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Sep 18, 2015 15:25
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Probably one of the biggest epistemic differences is what is meant by "integration". Perhaps people could go around and outline what they consider to be integration, so that "European countries are worse at integration" can be examined properly.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:26
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We need to determine the area between the line of refugees&migrants and the X-axis.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:29
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