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Kanos posted:I guess I just fundamentally don't agree. When people discuss Char's megalomania or Zeta vs ZZ or character interactions in CCA I usually(not always) end up finding something interesting or a new perspective that makes me think about something differently. On my first watch through Unicorn I was struggling to find a character that I liked until I read ImpAtom talking about Riddhe in a way I hadn't considered, which made me go back and look at Riddhe's actions and motivations again and now he's easily my favorite character in Unicorn(and one of my favorite characters in the UC, actually). It's especially good when new voices get involved because that means new perspectives. I'm not saying effortposts are bad. I just think not every post needs to be five paragraphs long. And while that thing you brought up is cool and good I don't understand how you can think people making the exact same complaints about destiny/age/whatever in the same way over and over again is good posting.
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Sep 18, 2015 11:44
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BlitzBlast posted:Srice, is your argument literally "Nobody should complain because I am sick of seeing people complain"? I've been pretty clear that seeing the exact same whining repeated over and over and over gets quite tiring and is generally lame Variety, is good
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Sep 18, 2015 11:57
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Basically what Droyer just said above
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Sep 18, 2015 11:59
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Let's talk about Sekai.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:02
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Who wants a pure blue sekai
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Sep 18, 2015 13:45
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BlitzBlast posted:Srice, is your argument literally "Nobody should complain because I am sick of seeing people complain"? This is my argument
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Sep 18, 2015 14:37
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The Sekai is not square
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Sep 18, 2015 14:46
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Let's talk about how much I love Hathaway's Flash and Gaia Gear. Cause I do, I really do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SftVvcOSGqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOkWvUWxl7Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk34CGYxyvE
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Sep 18, 2015 14:47
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MonsieurChoc posted:Let's talk about how much I love Hathaway's Flash and Gaia Gear. Cause I do, I really do. Did that guy translating Gaia Gear finish? Because if so I wanna listen to/read it
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Sep 18, 2015 14:51
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MonsieurChoc posted:Let's talk about how much I love Hathaway's Flash and Gaia Gear. Cause I do, I really do. Hathaway's Flash is great, and goddammit, it deserves an OVA or two. If just so we can get the two best mobile suits animated, as well as Bright's Burger Barn.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:31
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Droyer posted:Did that guy translating Gaia Gear finish? Because if so I wanna listen to/read it The Drama CD translation is up to Episode 14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IenLj7_Pps It's great, and shows why Gaia Gear would make a really good 26-episode animated series. That soundtrack. 
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Sep 18, 2015 15:38
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Drama CD translation is up to Episode 14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IenLj7_Pps How many episodes is it total?
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Sep 18, 2015 15:40
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Droyer posted:How many episodes is it total? 26, so the translation is just past the halfway point.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:48
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Honestly, I'll take a different bullet and discuss the strengths of series considered flawed, because I find that more interesting: Gundam AGE is, at its core, a very strong concept bolstered by some interesting ideas. The first arc is genuinely considered a 'waste' but it's a waste only in the way the Phantom Menace is a waste. What happens there could largely be covered in flashbacks and the rest of the story stands on its own. Flit is a genuinely interesting Gundam protagonist concept even if he doesn't fully live up to his expectations. All Gundam protagonists basically go the path of rejecting the corrupt society they are a part of in some way or another. Flit doesn't. He is effectively what you get if Lalah's death had the same impact on Amuro that it did on Char, and despite AGE's many fumblings Flit has a mostly-solid character arc. He goes from plucky kid to hardened adult and you see him gradually getting worse and worse. Intentional or not he is presented as someone who was so hosed up by his Lalah's death that he devotes his entire life to dealing with it. He has a kid and promptly tries to mold that kid into his personal successor. He uses his connections to get him assigned to a good unit with a custom-build Gundam and it's clear he strongly intended for him to be an X-Rounder too. By the third generation he is a bitter old man training his grandson in war machines in hopes he'll be a great killer. The only real flaw in his arc is that it ends with his redemption and even that is only really a flaw in that it is too quick and easy. Seeing NotAmuro screaming that they should execute war prisoners is a really interesting idea. Likewise, Asemu is a great idea. The concept of "Newtype > Oldtype" is pretty hard-coded into Gundam's DNA and no Gundam series ever really dealt with it. Gundam X kiiiiinda did but Gundam X never really dealt with the idea strongly beyond one fight. The idea of a protagonist who literally can't keep up physically with his friends and his foes is interesting because it forces the protagonist into the underdog role and makes him victories feel more impressive even when he is in a top-of-the-line robot. The combat choreography can't always keep up but it's still a solid idea. Thematically he also works by going the exact opposite of Flit. He isn't an X-Rounder but he chooses to reject society and become a pirate and would rather find a peaceful solution than kill everyone, but he also doesn't go Full Defection. His plot with Zeheart fizzles due to the dumb ending but it is 90% of a strong concept. Even the Zeheart thing could have worked if Asemu had been the sole protagonist and they could have had his death be a catalyst for the ending. Both characters are within a stone's throw of not just being good characters but being among the more interesting protagonists Gundam has even had. Even with AGE's missteps they are still incredibly distinctive and dynamic characters and their strong core concepts actually bolster a lot of the show. The fact they get so much focus during the second generation is probably why it is widely considered the best of the three generations. Gundam AGE is the kind of show where a minor rewrite could make it a great show which is why I think its frustrating to so many people. It is like the iconic "bad execution" show.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:49
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ImpAtom posted:Honestly, I'll take a different bullet and discuss the strengths of series considered flawed, because I find that more interesting: This is a super good post, thank you ImpAtom. I disagree with one thing though. I feel like X went even further with the newtype/oldtype things. Asemu's story in AGE is that he becomes a great pilot despite not being an X-rounder, X-rounders are still superior 99% of the time and the story still treats being an X-rounder as a Good Thing. Gundam X however rejected Newtypes as a concept, as part of a larger rejections of the U.C.s (perhaps unintentional) transhumanism.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:45
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That's another interesting bit of squandered potential in AGE. the show itself treats being an X-rounder as being a good thing, because it let's you fight better, but there's dialogue in there about it being a bad thing. They need to wear the special helmets to limit their X-Rounder abilities, and it's even mentioned once that X-rounders get their ability from activating a primitive part of the brain, like being an X-Rounder is a sort of de-evolution. Newtypes are a good thing that's turned into a bad thing by war, but it seems like at some point there was the idea that X-Rounders were supposed to be a bad thing that was turned into an asset and encouraged by war.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:57
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Droyer posted:This is a super good post, thank you ImpAtom. I disagree with one thing though. I feel like X went even further with the newtype/oldtype things. Asemu's story in AGE is that he becomes a great pilot despite not being an X-rounder, X-rounders are still superior 99% of the time and the story still treats being an X-rounder as a Good Thing. Gundam X however rejected Newtypes as a concept, as part of a larger rejections of the U.C.s (perhaps unintentional) transhumanism. boom boom boom posted:That's another interesting bit of squandered potential in AGE. the show itself treats being an X-rounder as being a good thing, because it let's you fight better, but there's dialogue in there about it being a bad thing. They need to wear the special helmets to limit their X-Rounder abilities, and it's even mentioned once that X-rounders get their ability from activating a primitive part of the brain, like being an X-Rounder is a sort of de-evolution. I think the interesting thing about X-Rounders is that, as presented in AGE, they are effectively hyper-Newtypes. They don't just have empathy for people but have absurd super-empathy for people. This leads to the absurd situation that due to the ongoing war and most of them coming from HellMars, the huge bulk of them are effectively being bombarded nonstop by Angry War Waves. This leads to guys like Desil who only can really respond by enjoying what they feel or guys like Zeheart who frantically get more and more desperate to stop feeling death and to make what he felt already worth something. (Something that is only really emphasized in Memories of Eden.) Asemu's arc is not just becoming a better fighter than an X-Rounder but being capable of empathy without getting lost in it. He can engage in wars and fight his enemies but does not become overwhelmed by it the way Flit and Zeheart are. It is AGE, however briefly, arguing that it is necessary and even important to be able to fight but merely being good at fighting is useless without having empathy for your enemies. It's one of the few things the series does well. Kio is supposed to be the opposite direction: a kid who is so bombarded by Sad Tragedy that his response is to desperately try to stop it, which is an understandable direction for the show to go but poorly executed. X-Rounders effectively take the idea that Newtypes can feel emotion and go all-in on it so feeling horrific mind-scarring damage leaves them all absurdly hosed up people because that is what a war would do to incredibly empathy-driven people. It's also why all the really screwed-up X-Rounders are driven by close personal trauma.
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Sep 18, 2015 17:28
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ImpAtom posted:Gundam AGE is, at its core, a very strong concept bolstered by some interesting ideas. I've been considering watching AGE for a while now because I love a lot of its mech designs and the character design is interesting, and I've always held back because people keep mentioning how bad it is. I guess I'll go ahead and add it to my to-watch list now, so thanks.
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Sep 18, 2015 19:59
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I've been considering watching AGE for a while now because I love a lot of its mech designs and the character design is interesting, and I've always held back because people keep mentioning how bad it is. I guess I'll go ahead and add it to my to-watch list now, so thanks. AGE is sorta interesting because it's the kind of bad writing that is so raw and basic that it's very easy to place where it went wrong or why you don't like it. It's so mechanical at times, with introducing basically interchangeable love interests in each generation because of course, the hero needs to have a child; there's one female character that has something like a one or two episode arc that encapsulates all the issues the show has with women in one neat package; the 1st generation ship captain's weird moral ambiguity where it's never really clear if he's meant to be bad, or if the show was making a point, or if the writers just forgot or couldn't be bothered... It's a mess, but it's sometimes an interesting mess. EDIT: I forgot, there's a point where someone receives a bribe and it's a sack of gold coins. It gets so nonsensical at times it could almost be outsider art. Red Bones fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 20:25
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Gundam AGE also has really good music, especially in part two. The OP, ED and the battle song from that arc are some of my favorite Gundam music
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Sep 18, 2015 20:36
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boom boom boom posted:Gundam AGE also has really good music, especially in part two. The OP, ED and the battle song from that arc are some of my favorite Gundam music That battle song just fits perfectly witih Asemu just beating the poo poo out of Decil. One of the few really good moments from age.
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Sep 18, 2015 20:39
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Red Bones posted:EDIT: I forgot, there's a point where someone receives a bribe and it's a sack of gold coins. It gets so nonsensical at times it could almost be outsider art. I laughed about this too but i think it's worth pointing out that this is a Gundam reference. Miharu has the exact same thing happen in her arc in the original show.
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Sep 18, 2015 20:44
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I think the one positive thing I can always bring up about AGE is that its pacing is way better than the average mecha show of its length. It's a real basic method to do so, in that the generational aspect means constantly having to set up new status quos and introduce lots of characters at a time, but it's something that really goes a long way. I think it's something that could be repeated in a Gundam series, the generational part isn't important but it would be nice to see that change in protagonists happening within a single show instead of happening between sequels of very long shows.
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Sep 18, 2015 20:56
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Srice posted:I think the one positive thing I can always bring up about AGE is that its pacing is way better than the average mecha show of its length. That is a thing about AGE i hadn't thought of, and now that I do, you're right, the pacing is really good. They move from place to place, there's little side plots that get resolved reasonably quickly, The robots upgrades mean you don't see the same finishing move or whatever every fight, basically the only things that stay from one generation to the next one are things you want to see in the next generatin(Woolf, Flit, Zeheart). Nothing overstays it's welcome, except the show itself.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:45
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They even gently caress up the pacing sometimes though, like the bizarre sidetrack the first gen arc takes where it spends several episodes in that space colony with the dueling mobile suit gangs. Eventually it pays off in the final battle but I remember it coming off as kind of a boring waste of time when it happened. Aside from that instance I can't think of a time the pacing was bad though, so it's a good point to make. I think each generation was about 12 episodes, which is a good length for a story arc.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:53
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I liked the dueling colonies. It was like something from ZZ.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:56
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The dueling colonies is really bad in the anime. Oddly the game actually makes it more sensible. Like all the stuff about people living in fear and poo poo is actually addressed there. There are actual animated cutscenes of the fighting spilling into the underground, emphasizing that these fights are not just wacky nothing but a serious war that intrudes even on the few safe spaces people have. It's still pretty goofy but even the one cutscene of them basically leaving the underground area in a wreck (and sparking Beeflegs Noname to get in his shovelbot and fight back) does a lot to make it feel more coherent. The game also really presents the Vagans in a different light and actually makes use of the Age system in a more coherent manner. It's really clear they designed the game first despite it having a lot of issues.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:04
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ImpAtom posted:The dueling colonies is really bad in the anime. How does the game present the Vagans? A Gundam game getting the proper gundam approach of a new setting, suits, getting model kits etc was a cool thing about AGE. I mean, bandai got so excited about it that they span it out into a lovely tv series, but the original concept of a new Gundam story to be told through a game was a cool one.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:17
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boom boom boom posted:Gundam AGE also has really good music, especially in part two. The OP, ED and the battle song from that arc are some of my favorite Gundam music Yeah, I really liked most of the OPs when I listened to them. Not sure I like that battle rave song, though. 
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Sep 18, 2015 22:17
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Red Bones posted:How does the game present the Vagans? The Vagans are a little more sensible (but only a little their core overaching threat is the same.) They have a little more sensible characterization due to being in an RPG and their method of attacks work a bit better. They're also not immune to damage. The ~magic drill beam~ isn't really a thing in the game. Everyone can damage the Vagans effectively. Flit's opening AGE thing isn't even a gun. It's a giant beam-bladed weedwacker instead.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:24
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Over the years I've learned that hte most boring gundam fights happens when the suits can just tank the enemy's shots. It happened a lot in age and it's one of the reasons I find the fights in wing really, really boring. 00 s1 wasn't so bad about this, because it was neat seeing the rest of the world attempting to figure out how to get around the fact that they couldn't damage them. So they did stuff like immobile them or tire the pilots out.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:29
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Monaghan posted:Over the years I've learned that hte most boring gundam fights happens when the suits can just tank the enemy's shots. It happened a lot in age and it's one of the reasons I find the fights in wing really, really boring. Wing and 00 are really the only two series where the protagonist suits were so far ahead of the antagonist suits technologically that they were functionally invincible, and in 00 that did not last long because 00's antagonist factions were actually written as people who adapt and try different solutions to an intractable problem(until everyone achieves rough tech parity at the end of S1). Wing really had pretty much the most boring overall fight choreography in the entire Gundam franchise.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:59
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I thought it was cool in 00 that the world's managed to kick the ever-loving poo poo out of the Meisters once they reached CB's tech level. The Meisters were coasting on their tech and Sumeragi backing them up, and when both of those were removed, it turned out they weren't all that hot as pilots.
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Sep 19, 2015 00:04
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00 really kinda suffers for that though. It's a neat concept but it effectively means that the protagonists are either completely dominant or completely overwhelmed. The closest to a real 'even' fight was probably the last battle in S1 and even then the Meisters were tremendously outnumbered, a man down and their opponent had a giant golden god and the fight basically amounted to them getting their asses kicked a lot. Invincible Super Suits are hard to work out and be interesting with unfortunately.
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Sep 19, 2015 00:07
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ImpAtom posted:I laughed about this too but i think it's worth pointing out that this is a Gundam reference. Miharu has the exact same thing happen in her arc in the original show. Especially in a devastated warzone hard currency would definitely be way more useful than whatever scrip the armies are using. For miharu at least.
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Sep 19, 2015 00:13
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Monaghan posted:Over the years I've learned that the most boring gundam fights happens when the suits can just tank the enemy's shots. 
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Sep 19, 2015 00:31
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Monaghan posted:Over the years I've learned that hte most boring gundam fights happens when the suits can just tank the enemy's shots. It happened a lot in age and it's one of the reasons I find the fights in wing really, really boring. Hey, Kamille versus Paptimus in the The O and Judau versus Ple Two in the Psyco Gundam were pretty rad.
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Sep 19, 2015 00:35
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I just want to point out that OZ uses strategy against the Gundams, too. See the whole Taurus Transport thing where Heero eventually self-destructs. It wasn't a bad plan, what with the whole decoy route, as well as focusing on making Heavyarms waste all its ammo. Of course , OZ also had the benefit of the Tallgeese, which is roughly on par with the Gundams. I notice things become a lot less hilariously one-sided in outer space. Mobile Dolls actually did okay against everyone who wasn't Heero or Zechs as I recall everythingWasBees posted:I honestly don't get the love for Zeta. It was just more Gundam. It was a decent series, sure, but it felt like a retread of the original and half the series after it were retreads of retreads of the original burned out halfway through because I just didn't care anymore. I was going in chronological order and people retread the War is Hell adults are corrupt thing so often that you could just watch 0080 and be done with it. I'm of the opinion that, while Zeta did have a lot of similar plot points to the original MSG, it did them all way better. I actually like the crew of the Argama for one thing while I never liked anyone on White Base except Kai. To me, Zeta just has a much stronger cast overall. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 01:35
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ImpAtom posted:00 really kinda suffers for that though. It's a neat concept but it effectively means that the protagonists are either completely dominant or completely overwhelmed. The closest to a real 'even' fight was probably the last battle in S1 and even then the Meisters were tremendously outnumbered, a man down and their opponent had a giant golden god and the fight basically amounted to them getting their asses kicked a lot. The final fight of S2 was probably the best overall fight in the series, in my opinion. Hallelujah and Lockon got to have really sweet fight sequences there, and Setsuna vs Ribbons wasn't horrible aside from Ribbons taking advantage of the 00's absolutely idiotic design flaw and jacking a drive so they could have their final mutual suicide duel.
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Sep 19, 2015 03:17
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NikkolasKing posted:
The WB team doesn't have a lot of personality for the most part. Sayla feels worthless until the Ral arc, Hayato is just...there, Ryu is only notable as the token wingman, Mirai gets a story in the last bits of the show, and then there's the faceless characters, like Job John, that everyone turns into major characters as jokes. Meanwhile, in Zeta and ZZ, I liked characters like Apolly, Torres, and Astionage, even though they were just as two dimensional (except Torres in ZZ) as someone like Hayato because they had something going for them, like "trusty mechanic", "buddy wingman", and "sassy ship pilot". At least they had some sort of gimmick.
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Sep 19, 2015 07:30
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