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Convicted (in Germany) Iraqi terrorist allowed to stay in Germany (Merkel pls) and stabs police officer: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/berlin-terrorist-attack-police-stabbed-islamic-extremist-10506370.html
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Sep 18, 2015 15:34
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An integrated person respects and follows the values and laws of their new country ( and thus is willing to abandon any traditions that go directly against them). They can also communicate with other locals (in some countries english is enough) and can take care of their daily poo poo without assistance. just my 2 (euro) cents. kikkelivelho fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 15:35
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Not long until Hungarians will be fleeing Russian tanks, I doubt anybody will give them poo poo for being refugees.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:37
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Effectronica posted:Probably one of the biggest epistemic differences is what is meant by "integration". Perhaps people could go around and outline what they consider to be integration, so that "European countries are worse at integration" can be examined properly. Kikkelivelho covered it pretty well. I've never known any Muslim immigrants that have not integrated very well (this is in the U.S., not Europe), but I've met Hispanic immigrants from both Cuba and Mexico who manage to live here for decades without learning more than a few basic English phrases.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:37
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Narciss posted:I've never known any Muslim immigrants that have not integrated very well reflect on this observation
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Sep 18, 2015 15:40
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Arglebargle III posted:reflect on this observation I would be remiss to paint all immigrants from the Muslim world with a broad brush, and so would you (whether it's in a positive or negative light). Europe has problems with their Muslim immigrants that we don't.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:41
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You mean like al-Awlaki?
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Sep 18, 2015 15:42
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Tesseraction posted:You mean like al-Awlaki? I think you're well aware that it's a matter of degree. Yes, there are Muslims living in the U.S. that became Islamic terrorists, but Europe has entire communities full of festering fundamentalism. The idea of a Sharia law-governed zone in the U.S. sounds like the laughable fantasy of a xenophobic neocon, but in Europe that's actually a real thing that exists in TYOOL 2015.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:47
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Where?
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Sep 18, 2015 15:49
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Narciss posted:I think you're well aware that it's a matter of degree. Perhaps. So what is your suggestion as the cause of radicalisation of Muslims in the European Union, and how has America 'managed' to avoid the same?
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Sep 18, 2015 15:52
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Where? http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5512/sharia-courts-muslim-women http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/samfund/indvandrer-bander-bruges-som-sharia-taeskehold/5341201 (Chrome translator is good) http://www.dw.com/en/germany-wont-tolerate-sharia-police/a-17906086
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Sep 18, 2015 15:53
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Ah yes, the Gatestone Institute, which proudly shows an anti-Islam-in-all-forms message and even dares claim Muhummad left no tolerance for other religions, completely ignoring the concept of Dhimmi and Jizyat. I'll accept the premise of the other 2.
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Sep 18, 2015 15:58
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Narciss posted:http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5512/sharia-courts-muslim-women I understand Danish well enough. There's no "Shariah law governed zones" in Denmark. Neither is there in Germany nor UK, far as I can tell. '
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Sep 18, 2015 16:04
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Narciss posted:I would be remiss to paint all immigrants from the Muslim world with a broad brush, and so would you (whether it's in a positive or negative light). Europe has problems with their Muslim immigrants that we don't. Ugh. I meant the reason you haven't met immigrants who don't show their face in broader society is...
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Sep 18, 2015 16:06
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:I understand Danish well enough. There's no "Shariah law governed zones" in Denmark. Neither is there in Germany nor UK, far as I can tell. Pretty much. They point out incidences of over-zealous individuals. Given that America is potentially facing ANOTHER government shutdown over abortion rights based in religious/ideological reasons I'd say I'm more worried about Christian extremists.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:12
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Tesseraction posted:We need to determine the area between the line of refugees&migrants and the X-axis.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:29
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Effectronica posted:Probably one of the biggest epistemic differences is what is meant by "integration". Perhaps people could go around and outline what they consider to be integration, so that "European countries are worse at integration" can be examined properly. "Speaks the dominant (or a dominant, thanks Belgium) language fluently." That's about all for me, off the top of my head.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:32
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Tesseraction posted:Pretty much. They point out incidences of over-zealous individuals. Don't mistake me; I'm under no illusions as to the threat Salafists/Wahhabists pose (both radical and quietist). I made some posts on this theme in the Islam thread, and I don't want to repeat myself, but Saudi influence is a problem, for sure, and a blight upon our muslim communities. Muslims are being harassed by Wahhabists, yes, but what Narciss suggest is something else entirely. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 16:32
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Yeah, basically whenever I think of problems with Islam I think of the Saudi royal family and their stupid facial hair.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:34
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Arglebargle III posted:And we have outrage about even things that obviously are not racism: Italian workers do not want their wages and hours undercut. I'm specifically talking about small, family-owned businesses, so those workers are irrelevant Some people (can't really put a label on them, you can hear it from literally anyone) maintain that said too-hard-working foreigners do not really benefit Italy because they send all their money abroad. "Do you ever see any Chinese in an Italian restaurant?" is the kind of rhetorical question they'll ask. It's also considered distasteful and highly suspect when an Italian-owned business fails and is bought out by some Chinese who proceed to keep it profitable for years (what other measure of success is there for a business?). There are the aforementioned "makes u think"s, and then we have my architect friend who outright says Chinese buy-outs are a sign of the decline of a neighborhood e: why are we talking about this again? Is it that Europeans fear they will no longer be competitive without lowering their standards of living? hackbunny fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 16:49
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Italians do not want their wages and hours undercut. The Greeks though? Pillage their nation for the good of the Volk. 
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Sep 18, 2015 16:53
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kikkelivelho posted:An integrated person respects and follows the values and laws of their new country ( and thus is willing to abandon any traditions that go directly against them). They can also communicate with other locals (in some countries english is enough) and can take care of their daily poo poo without assistance. So in your view, the native culture changing at all is morally wrong?
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Sep 18, 2015 16:56
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Nonsense posted:Italians do not want their wages and hours undercut My limited understanding is that workers' rights have been cut as an emergency measure to make hiring look more appealing. It doesn't seem to have worked at all, except in changing the expectations of young people (work for
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Sep 18, 2015 17:08
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Demanding that the immigrants are not used as underpaid labor would be a rational reaction to the refugee crisis, but it's not the reaction I'm seeing Sure, it will be pushed hard as a talking point, but it's not what people will say on their Facebook pages and in comment sections
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Sep 18, 2015 17:22
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computer parts posted:So in your view, the native culture changing at all is morally wrong? Many reasonable people believe that a country has some right to retain it's existing culture. Gradual change is inevitable in a globalized world, but there's nothing bigoted about not wanting your country to serve as an incubator for Syria 2.0. ----------------
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Sep 18, 2015 17:27
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Come on, don't you think it's overblown? Re-read what you wrote and tell me you're not taking the piss
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Sep 18, 2015 17:28
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Really, a lot of this stems from the idea of the nation-state. When the state is explicitly identified as a construct for the sole benefit of a nation of people, people that are not of that nation must obviously be second-class in some way. Thus, the scaremongering about loss of culture is really just a way to sublimate the essentially ethnic nature of this conflict.
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Sep 18, 2015 17:34
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Arglebargle III posted:Seriously this thread is just dancing on outrage; any attempt to discuss policies towards and consequences of the migration just gets lost in the latest thing to get outraged about. I don't think unintended consequences have been discussed enough in this thread. For instance, redistribution of wealth is a social good, however, it is not good to drop wads of $100 bills collected from the rich into a dense crowd of poor people. Likewise, I think there is a real question about the wisdom of national leaders suddenly and widely publicizing that they have room for hundreds of thousands of refugees. Are we setting up people who live in relatively safe but impoverished areas of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc to make a long, dangerous journey across major warzones and then cross to Europe in a rubber boat? Also, integrating people into a community seems to work best when there are a handful of new people who move to an established community. It's not clear how Germany and other countries can avoid making massive ghettos with the sheer numbers of refugees they are going to accept. I presume they're going to have to build more housing to accommodate these refugees, and if that's the case, will they also ensure that enough native citizens share these new dwellings to get desirable integration effects?
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Sep 18, 2015 17:46
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hackbunny posted:I'm specifically talking about small, family-owned businesses, so those workers are irrelevant Worry that the profits from that business will flow to China rather than remain in the community is a perfectly legitimate concern. Chinese buy-outs are a sign that local businesses will disinvest in the community, just as it would be if a big corporate chain opened a franchise and sent all the profits to Connecticut or the Cayman Islands. If you're talking about Chinese buying real-estate, absentee owners are a big issue with Chinese buyers and that's a reasonable worry as well. If Chinese nationals start buying up a significant part of your neighborhood there's a real possibility that those homes will sit empty for years and contribute nothing to economic activity in the area. Your architect friend might know more about neighborhoods than you do. We're talking about this because some posters in this thread are responding to reasonable concerns from European middle and lower classes who see their already lousy economic prospects threatened by an influx of cheap labor as though they were totally driven by racism. I'm sure there are racists in Europe, (and as notable crazy person Effectronica points out, the whole concept of the European nation-state is a bit orthogonal to multiculturalism) but these are legitimate class issues. Witness the trillion-dollar tax evasion schemes pumping capital out of Europe and into the bank accounts of the economic elites coupled with an inability to find jobs and homes for Europeans much less millions of Syrian refugees. Newly arrived ethnic outsiders are a proximal cause of suffering for the lower classes and are easier to identify and attack than the root cause of policy (and often outright crime) transferring wealth to economic elites. It's easy to mix up the reasons for hostility (and the perpetrators often do) but there are rational concerns for the lower classes. Really the answer is
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Sep 18, 2015 17:54
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Nonsense posted:Italians do not want their wages and hours undercut. The Greeks though? Pillage their nation for the good of the Volk. 
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Sep 18, 2015 18:27
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Arglebargle III posted:Newly arrived ethnic outsiders are a proximal cause of suffering for the lower classes and are easier to identify and attack than the root cause of policy (and often outright crime) transferring wealth to economic elites. It's easy to mix up the reasons for hostility (and the perpetrators often do) but there are rational concerns for the lower classes. Really the answer is Part of the problem is the left has largely been trampled in Europe, center-left parties have marginalized themselves through triangulation and the result is the rise of either harder left-wing parties who seem to have a problem (for a variety of reasons) getting into power or far-right populists. It is quite clearly a issue of materialism, but Europe really doesn't have the framework anymore of addressing the compounding crises they are facing. They once did, after the war, Europe was awash with refugees, hunger and poverty but the fall of the social market model has opened a very predictable opening for xenophobia. To be honest, I think that xenophobia was always going to exist *nation states largely built around a single ethnic identity don't seem to do that well at assimilation) but the political history of Europe from the 1980s until now has laid the perfect foundation for hatred and self-interest. It is difficult to be surprised by any of it, even as horrible as it all is.
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Sep 18, 2015 18:33
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Arglebargle III posted:Worry that the profits from that business will flow to China rather than remain in the community is a perfectly legitimate concern. It's a perfectly legal system that can be used by Italians too (and they do). I get the impression that it's considered clever when Italians do it, and immoral when foreigners do it. It's good to think about this rationally and thanks for the analysis (I still have no idea WTF "disinvest in the community" is supposed to mean though), but don't kid yourself, the people directly affected are not going to think about it rationally. Maybe you could have been right, what, thirty years ago? when workers still had a political conscience. Heck, I don't have one, and I was raised by a communist rail worker Arglebargle III posted:If you're talking about Chinese buying real-estate I'm not, and I don't think it's happening either (for one, my friend works in real estate and he would have told me with great glee). Plus Italy in general and Milan in particular has a long and varied tradition of squatting abandoned buildings and turning them into non-profit social clubs, so it's not always a total loss Arglebargle III posted:I'm sure there are racists in Europe Jesus christ dude, need a lantern because you can borrow mine Arglebargle III posted:Really the answer is I did say that new ideologies are popping up, didn't I? I follow a lot of "counter-information" blogs and I can see legitimate concerns and ideas shining from the pile of manure (a lot of them are pretty loving racist, incidentally). Meanwhile you can see the old ideologies struggling to wrap themselves around the new reality (gay people: abomination unto God or bourgeois decadence?)
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Sep 18, 2015 19:13
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay the subtext was supposed to be that it's ridiculous to call this not a problem. Aid workers will need to be trained, teachers will need to be retrained, classroom aids will need to be trained and put in schools, housing will need to be found (what, is the government going to just buy up empty inventory? seize empty homes? build new units?) transportation will have to be provided, job training programs, adult language classes, vaccination programs, food distribution to temporary camps... the list goes on and on and this is assuming they just find the money to pay for all of it. And finding the money may be the least technically difficult problem but they haven't even gotten to that stage yet. Are you illiterate, I didn't say it's not a problem or that it doesn't take effort, I said it won't bankrupt Europe or America or even really affect our standard of living. poo poo, America spent what $3 trillion pointlessly knocking over Iraq. 3 million millions, that's $300,000 per refugee, you could buy each family of four a nice house and hand them $1 million for what we frivolously spent on a fruitless war.
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Sep 18, 2015 19:40
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VitalSigns posted:Are you illiterate, I didn't say it's not a problem or that it doesn't take effort, I said it won't bankrupt Europe or America or even really affect our standard of living. Iraq is an example of what happens when you pump a lot of resources into a complex situation through underdeveloped and inadequate channels, and an example of what happens when a strong political mandate conflicts with inadequate institutional competence. You can not, in fact, 'buy each family of four a nice house and hand them a million,' even if the political will for it is there. Let's say we have a mandate to house them at any cost: Who's going to build the houses? Certainly not private developers, what happens to them when some substantial proportion of the refugees go home? If we're going to use currently unused housing, how are we going to avoid creating ghettos? It's not like unused housing is evenly distribution over cities. On an EU-wide scale, you wouldn't even end up with an even distribution over countries. There's a reason migrations are historical empire-killers: it's just not that easy.
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Sep 18, 2015 20:39
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Ligur posted:IIRC those who came in the 90s ain't doing that bad. The ones who came in the 00s and later are. For some reason, our larger refugee groups don't do very well at school So while race is apparently the primary determining factor of your educational performance and employment prospects, you don't think racism is the reason for that disparity? Zodium posted:Iraq is an example of what happens when you pump a lot of resources into a complex situation through underdeveloped and inadequate channels, and an example of what happens when a strong political mandate conflicts with inadequate institutional competence. You can not, in fact, 'buy each family of four a nice house and hand them a million,' even if the political will for it is there. Let's say we have a mandate to house them at any cost: Who's going to build the houses? Certainly not private developers, what happens to them when some substantial proportion of the refugees go home? If we're going to use currently unused housing, how are we going to avoid creating ghettos? It's not like unused housing is evenly distribution over cities. On an EU-wide scale, you wouldn't even end up with an even distribution over countries. There's a reason migrations are historical empire-killers: it's just not that easy. Ooo I know, you pay some people to build the houses and then rent them out at reasonable rates to people when they become vacant. What a novel idea, I think I'll call it "Social Housing"
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Sep 18, 2015 21:01
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Many fail and stop at high school stages. I don't know why, there's speculation, like parents not appreciating education/not working therefore not setting an example and whatnot. Also 2nd generation immigrants appear, according to reports, often quite alienated. Their parents who came as refugees are fine with what they got, but now the 2nd generation kids are not happy with their lot anymore. Also we get the occasional but steady stream of news pieces about parents form conservative places like Somalia or Iraq not letting their kids grow into "Finnish culture" so they get caught between. Somali girls can't do what their classmates can on their free time, not even what their brothers can, that type of stuff.
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OwlFancier posted:"Social Housing" Isn't that pretty much a synonym for poverty, crime, hopelessness? I'm for it, but you have to admit that it has a strong tendency of not working
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Sep 18, 2015 21:14
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hackbunny posted:Isn't that pretty much a synonym for poverty, crime, hopelessness? As opposed to private rented housing which is synonymous with..? Housing sucks full stop if it's poorly managed, and communities suck if they aren't well integrated with each other. You can't just build houses and put people in them but the idea that we can't build houses for people because of some mysterious magical force that doesn't permit a government to just pay money, build a house, then charge a modest sum for people to live in it is stupid. My granny lives in a social house and it's a nice house, I'd like to live in a house like it. The main issues with them are that they tend to not be properly serviced or maintained, and they also are often poor quality and nobody spends money on them if they start going kind of downhill. If properly maintained there's nothing wrong with them. But as always, it comes down to money, and the idea that we shouldn't spend money on poors because they're not as good as rich people.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:22
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hackbunny posted:Isn't that pretty much a synonym for poverty, crime, hopelessness? It works pretty great if the government is actually committed to it, look at the Vienna social housing system.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:23
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hackbunny posted:Isn't that pretty much a synonym for poverty, crime, hopelessness? What? It's historically done really well when a mixture of different incomes are placed into the area. It works poorly when said housing is purely a place to keep poor people out of sight, far from the locations of workplaces and in general considered 'out of sight, our of mind.'
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Sep 18, 2015 21:26
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VitalSigns posted:Are you illiterate, I didn't say it's not a problem or that it doesn't take effort, I said it won't bankrupt Europe or America or even really affect our standard of living. The social systems of Europe are already strained and being dialed back, to say that the increased demand on them and the increased competition for low wage jobs will not hurt the poor in Europe is simply sticking your head in the sand because the facts aren't convenient for you.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:50
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