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OwlFancier posted:If the disaster is unpredictable in both nature and magnitude then what do you propose we do about it? End consumerism, end growth. The ecological weight of 7 billion humans, let alone the 9 or 10 billion the UN predicts by 2100, clambering to live energy-rich, stuff-rich Western lifestyles isn't sustainable barring some unforeseen technological miracle.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:15
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Dead Reckoning posted:
I feel the need to reply to this again because you're so fundamentally wrong on how logic works. Please assure me you aren't involved in it professionally.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:15
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KaptainKrunk posted:End consumerism, end growth. The ecological weight of 7 billion humans, let alone the 9 or 10 billion the UN predicts by 2100, clambering to live energy-rich, stuff-rich Western lifestyles isn't sustainable barring some unforeseen technological miracle. Good ideas but not really disaster proofing. Also if the idea is to minimise effects on society, then changing society radically to prevent the disaster seems... self defeating? Additionally, good luck telling everyone "OK, I know we invaded your countries and stole a bunch of poo poo from you but this rich lifestyle we have, you can't have it, because it's bad for the planet, so stop developing." OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 01:16
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KaptainKrunk posted:End consumerism, end growth. The ecological weight of 7 billion humans, let alone the 9 or 10 billion the UN predicts by 2100, clambering to live energy-rich, stuff-rich Western lifestyles isn't sustainable barring some unforeseen technological miracle. In terms of energy needs, the technology already exists and has existed for half a century.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:20
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computer parts posted:In terms of energy needs, the technology already exists and has existed for half a century. And that technology is...?
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Sep 19, 2015 01:25
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OwlFancier posted:Policies such as "stop the bad stuff" and "protect against things going wrong"? Are you retarded? We're obviously talking about the problem of how to deal with large flows of migrants heading towards the developed world due to strife in their native countries. Planning for this would include developing border protection policies that can prevent an uncontrolled influx. Examples would include the soon to be completed fence around Israel (which i believe they are in talks with several EU countries about exporting) and Australia's boat turnback policy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 19, 2015 01:25
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KaptainKrunk posted:And that technology is...? Guessing nuclear power. Ian Winthorpe III posted:Are you retarded? We're obviously talking about the problem of how to deal with large flows of migrants heading towards the developed world due to strife in their native countries. Planning for this would include developing border protection policies that can prevent an uncontrolled influx. Examples would include the soon to be completed fence around Israel (which i believe they are in talks with several EU countries about exporting) and Australia's boat turnback policy. Holy poo poo, you're actually suggesting building the Great Wall of Europe to hold off the endless migrant hordes! You know if we destroyed all ports except for the ones in the black sea we could like, channel the migrants through the Greek peninsula and get free shots on them, they only directly attack your walls if you don't leave them an entrance you know! Did you think Land of the Dead was a historical piece? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 01:27
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Jeeeesus people, there's people who need help, how about we help the people who need help? Crazy idea. I don't recall discussing economic consequences when there's a tsunami or earthquake, how about not doing that when there's a human-created disaster? e: and it doesn't matter for poo poo who created it first, why is half the world 12 years old when it comes to things like this?
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Sep 19, 2015 01:38
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I See it now. The Germans will close their borders. The hungarians, the romans, the poles. They will all be angered. The Germans will laugh at them : you are part of the eurozone. You accept the refugees or leave. Accept the refugees or your economies will tank, and your nations will be ruined. The same power they had over Greece they will use here. The leaders of their nation, racist scum as they may be; will have no reason but to give in to this new Roman Holy Empire. Hundreds of Thousands of Refugees will flood into these countries. Who, hate them. They won't spend a dollar on integrating them into society. Class and sectarian strife will rise. Crime levels will rise. Extremism will rise. The poles, the hungarians, the romanians, will want to leave; they'll become refugees of their own; they will try to flee to other parts of europe, the USA. Those left behind will fight for their homelands, civil wars will arise. Soon the relocated syrians will want to move to and try to flee these countries. They cycle will continue. Forever until the end of time. While Merkel sits in a golden chair, bathed in blood, laughing.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:39
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VitalSigns posted:Are you illiterate, I didn't say it's not a problem or that it doesn't take effort, I said it won't bankrupt Europe or America or even really affect our standard of living. You heard it here first everyone: $3 trillion is not a lot of money.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:41
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PerpetualSelf posted:I See it now. The Germans will close their borders. The hungarians, the romans, the poles. They will all be angered. Did you cum? That's what matters.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:41
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Arglebargle III posted:You heard it here first everyone: $3 trillion is not a lot of money. It's an amount of money we managed to find to kill hundreds of thousands of people for no reason, anyway.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:49
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Arglebargle III posted:You heard it here first everyone: $3 trillion is not a lot of money. $3 trillion is the amount of money America is perfectly willing to spend on things which do not benefit it materially, but which are beneficial to its politicians.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:49
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Integration takes time and money, and you have to prevent ghettos forming. The EU doesn't have a good track record of that, though I'm not terribly sure why. Best possible outcome: The EU works together, spreads the refugees across the countries in the EU, takes control of the situation and deports the people who are obviously faking. Crisis solved with minimal damage, the migrants become citizens and life goes on. Most likely outcome: Each countries shoves the problem from one to another, until a crisis occurs for the refugees (riots, deaths, etc.) inside the EU. The blame for that crisis will itself be treated like the refugees (ignored/moved), with the most likely winners of this being the far-right, who'll just throw up barriers and shot anyone who crosses them. OwlFancier posted:$3 trillion is the amount of money America is perfectly willing to spend on things which do not benefit it materially, but which are beneficial to its politicians. rudatron fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 01:53
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TomViolence posted:EDIT: Also, I can't wait for Ian Winthorpe III, if that even is his real name, to get back to us and explain this figure. my dad posted:Are you the poster Ironic War Criminal? I mean, if I substitute the III for the 3rd letter of the alphabet, you're IWC. Jagchosis posted:Oh its confirmed in his rap sheet. Well this is less fun now Called it!
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Sep 19, 2015 01:54
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Arglebargle III posted:You heard it here first everyone: $3 trillion is not a lot of money. I'm choosing to believe you're not that dense and actually have some point that in my limited intelligence am unable to see. But as far as that quote on that response goes I really have no idea. I beg you, please explain to me how that would make any loving sense, am I really that dense? Are you seeing things that lesser people as you would miss? Or are you just a gigantic loving rear end in a top hat just vomiting whatever you heard somewhere? It's a mistery, but one I would love to know the meaning behind. e: no wait I don't give a poo poo about what you think, I didn't realize you were a troll 
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Sep 19, 2015 01:56
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Arglebargle III posted:You heard it here first everyone: $3 trillion is not a lot of money.  He quite clearly said that $3 trillion is not enough to bankrupt the US or even cause a decline in our standard of living. Not that 3 trillion isn't a lot of money.
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Sep 19, 2015 02:02
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Rincewind posted:It's an amount of money we managed to find to kill hundreds of thousands of people for no reason, anyway. As proven by the pluck and determination of the Iraqi people, killing Iraqis is cheap if that's all you care about.
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Sep 19, 2015 03:37
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't think technological optimism is a terribly sound basis for policy. "We've managed to stave off resource exhaustion so far, surely this means that it can never happen in the future and any concern about it is a cover for racism." "So let's make sure they don't get any of it" is not a reasonable or moral response to the realization that your standard of living and appetite for luxuries are unsustainable. It's completely ridiculous that this thread has devolved into Malthusian doomsaying to not help people who need help, when the same arguments could be leveled against Europe's existing social welfare system. "Whoa whoa don't give impoverished Europeans food, housing, or education, they'll just become middle-class consumers who will bring us closer to the apocalypse". "Hey mom, I would like to help you now that dad's gone but it would be better for the earth to let you live in squalor and die before your time while I upgrade to the latest MacBook" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 03:49
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Jagchosis posted:Whatever may be done to guard against interruptions of supply and to develop domestic alternatives, the U.S. economy will require large and increasing amounts of minerals from abroad, especially from less developed countries. That fact gives the U.S. enhanced interest in the political, economic, and social stability of the supplying countries. Wherever a lessening of population pressures through reduced birth rates can increase the prospects for such stability, population policy becomes relevant to resource supplies and to the economic interests of the United States. MIGF, is that you?
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Sep 19, 2015 04:34
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icantfindaname posted:MIGF, is that you? i was actually just copy pasting henry kissinger so sort of
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Sep 19, 2015 04:38
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icantfindaname posted:MIGF, is that you? Jagchosis via Kissinger (and MIGF) are not wrong. If we want to keep running the US the same way it has been running, someone is gonna get hurt.
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Sep 19, 2015 04:40
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Come to think of it, this Malthusian excuse for turning back the boats depends on two completely contradictory premises (1) Our current economy is unsustainable and the first world will have to accept reductions in its standard of living (2) It's immoral to ask Europeans to accept any possibility of a reduction in their standard of living even to save hundreds of thousands of lives
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Sep 19, 2015 04:56
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VitalSigns posted:Come to think of it, this Malthusian excuse for turning back the boats depends on two completely contradictory premises Listen, I worked HARD to be born in the right part of the world.
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Sep 19, 2015 05:16
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Eventually I'm sure the average third worlder will have so many poisonous metals in their bodies we can just harvest them directly from the surplus population. Win-win IMO
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Sep 19, 2015 05:47
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VitalSigns posted:"So let's make sure they don't get any of it" is not a reasonable or moral response to the realization that your standard of living and appetite for luxuries are unsustainable. Oh I remember this from a different thread, you think "there are challenges that need to be overcome" means "we should do nothing." It was something about nuclear power or something and you went off on somebody who enumerated some political opposition. With this attitude no one can begin to talk about what might be done btw hth
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Sep 19, 2015 06:32
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VitalSigns posted:It's completely ridiculous that this thread has devolved into Malthusian doomsaying to not help people who need help, when the same arguments could be leveled against Europe's existing social welfare system. "Whoa whoa don't give impoverished Europeans food, housing, or education, they'll just become middle-class consumers who will bring us closer to the apocalypse". "Hey mom, I would like to help you now that dad's gone but it would be better for the earth to let you live in squalor and die before your time while I upgrade to the latest MacBook" Admittedly, much of the motivation for the social welfare state even in Europe was motivated by the Cold War. To be honest, if the Soviets hadn't existed, living standards probably wouldn't have risen nearly as high. Even in present-day Europe, the social welfare state wasn't created out of moralistic reasons but practical (as far as politics goes) ones.
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Sep 19, 2015 07:38
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Not to mention that since the decline and fall of he Soviet Union, the neoliberal project has been relentlessly chipping away and rolling back the welfare state, almost as if capitalists no longer see a compelling reason to allow its continued existence.
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Sep 19, 2015 09:42
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Obviously neoliberalism has undermined the welfare state, but I think it's a bit naive to simply blame a right-wing conspiracy for stealing OUR poo poo. Europe didn't just forget that the welfare state is good, the movement of capital simply makes it difficult to sustain (and believe me I'd like to see it survive). It's bit of a chicken-or-egg question, but I'm certain that economic conditions influence ideology more than ideology influences economic conditions.
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Sep 19, 2015 10:44
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So, uh. Refugees that tried to enter Slovenia yesterday evening got stopped by police, they decided to wait on the bridge on the border, since it was late kids went to sleep, then suddenly tear gas on said bridge. Also refugee kid died in a hospital in Krško this morning, "circumstances being investigated". I knew this country was poo poo but jfc. This easily takes the cake.
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Sep 19, 2015 10:47
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Nah, that's just riot police in general
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Sep 19, 2015 10:52
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Russia should start rounding up hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian laborers/unemployed and giving them rides via planes, trains, and automobiles to the border of Germany. A new type of weapon, even more devastating than hydrogen bombs, I call them, Population Bombs.
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Sep 19, 2015 13:15
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Manifest Despair posted:Russia should start rounding up hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian laborers/unemployed and giving them rides via planes, trains, and automobiles to the border of Germany. A new type of weapon, even more devastating than hydrogen bombs, I call them, Population Bombs. I'm pretty sure this was a Clancy (or equivalent) story.
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Sep 19, 2015 13:22
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"The welcome was very touching," said Syrian refugee Mohammed Abdullahi, tearing up, "the gas made it really feel like home."
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Sep 19, 2015 14:51
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The Germanic region had experienced huge influxes of migrating tribes in the previous decades before. The Turkites, the CIS Slavs and the Yugo Slavs, all coming in millions, were settled peacefully and without any problems. On arrival at the borders the tribes were usually disarmed and broken up into small groups to settle all over the country. Settlement happened on German conditions and under close scrutiny from the authorities and the army. The major mistake that led to the Fall of Germany was, like so often in history, a streak of bad luck and coincidents. When a large horde of Syrianite Wüstennegers arrived at the German border in 44 BTF, Germany was just getting caught up in a conflict with the eastern Putinites. In its desperation Merkela offered the arriving Syrianites to settle in the southern Bavarian regions, on their conditions, in exchange for their military service and their experiences fighters. While the Syrian Bundes Generals played a huge role in taking down the Putinites in the coming war, the genie was out of the bottle for Germany. The Syrinite Generals would be a enormous political force within the Bund from that moment on until the sack of Berlin and abdication of the last German chancellor Ursula I in 22 BTF.
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Sep 19, 2015 15:19
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Manifest Despair posted:Russia should start rounding up hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian laborers/unemployed and giving them rides via planes, trains, and automobiles to the border of Germany. A new type of weapon, even more devastating than hydrogen bombs, I call them, Population Bombs. Also, Russia should empty its prisons and mental health facilities and send them to Germany, just like Cuba did during the Mariel boatlift.
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Sep 19, 2015 15:19
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on the left posted:Also, Russia should empty its prisons and mental health facilities and send them to Germany, just like Cuba did during the Mariel boatlift. That might not be such a bad idea: http://imrussia.org/en/projects/pol...n-rights-center
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Sep 19, 2015 15:47
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Manifest Despair posted:Russia should start rounding up hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian laborers/unemployed and giving them rides via planes, trains, and automobiles to the border of Germany. A new type of weapon, even more devastating than hydrogen bombs, I call them, Population Bombs. Pretty sure the Germans did something pretty similar in WW1 and it worked out fine for them.
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Sep 19, 2015 16:13
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VitalSigns posted:Come to think of it, this Malthusian excuse for turning back the boats depends on two completely contradictory premises It's not immoral, it's just going to hilariously backfire because people just aren't going to sacrifice much even if you call them racist a bunch of times. This will lead to a surge in the right wing and ultimately regressive policies for everyone. Truga posted:So, uh. Refugees that tried to enter Slovenia yesterday evening got stopped by police, they decided to wait on the bridge on the border, since it was late kids went to sleep, then suddenly tear gas on said bridge. Also refugee kid died in a hospital in Krško this morning, "circumstances being investigated". E.G. Also: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34302285 Like we aren't even seeing much of the real negatives yet and things are already exploding. Just wait until the inevitable cutbacks in social services and increases in unemployment happen, then things will get real interesting. TROIKA CURES GREEK fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 16:27
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The Belgian posted:A Belgian tv channel went to people who posted bad facebook comments about the refugees and bradcast their faces nationally along with their facebook messsages. Interesting that they holding people accountable for their words, still, what did they say? Is there a subtitled version
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Sep 19, 2015 20:53
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