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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Slaan posted:

Aren't documents normally declassified after 50 years? Shouldn't we have access to all of that now?

From the books I've read, the issue is more that a fair amount of what went on in the highest levels of Japanese leadership was simply never recorded and those involved didn't talk about it much. Hell to Pay noted the problem - it was easy to find complete records of the formal Japanese plans for the defense of the Home Islands, but there are historical gaps in the Japanese leadership's exact thinking and reasoning.

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Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Slaan posted:

Aren't documents normally declassified after 50 years? Shouldn't we have access to all of that now?

You know, its a good thing I haven't gotten to the part about Communist China's ammunition, markings and general info yet because that section only gets declassified next year!

It's also super cool to me that, after checking the end of each section they have distribution numbers. Some of the sections have less than 100 copies.

Oh, and I totally forgot that there's a section on signal flares for the Russians :dance:

Synnr
Dec 30, 2009

HEY GAL posted:

This one's in German (Dam Vitzthum von Eckstedt wrote it and I don't know whether or not he speaks Italian), and I guess I could translate it and post it here when I have time.

No worries, I was just curious.

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!
So here's a question. What happened to all the WWII governments in exile in the west like say, Poland, that found their countries turned into Soviet puppet states after the war. I assume that a lot of them couldn't just head home like the Free French or Norwegians did. Did some try and last a while in the west in vain hope that the communists would leave/get thrown out? Did those who were reasonably sure they weren't on a Soviet kill list decide living in the Warsaw Pact was preferable to never seeing your homeland again? Was their some Hungarian in England during the Soviet breakup running some government in exile out of a tool shed feeling vindicated?

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

galagazombie posted:

So here's a question. What happened to all the WWII governments in exile in the west like say, Poland, that found their countries turned into Soviet puppet states after the war. I assume that a lot of them couldn't just head home like the Free French or Norwegians did. Did some try and last a while in the west in vain hope that the communists would leave/get thrown out? Did those who were reasonably sure they weren't on a Soviet kill list decide living in the Warsaw Pact was preferable to never seeing your homeland again? Was their some Hungarian in England during the Soviet breakup running some government in exile out of a tool shed feeling vindicated?

I think Lithuanian one died out in exile trying to drum up support in the US for liberation or at least the partisan movement.

Kaal
May 22, 2002

through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

T___A posted:

I am of the opinion that the Soviets could've and would've attempted an invasion of Hokkaido; they invaded the Kurils successfully and the invasion of Hokkaido would've involved the same units. Now if they could successfully defeat the Japanese stationed there is a different matter entirely.

Maybe, but the Soviet officials looked at the Kuril invasion as a total debacle and saw it as evidence that they were significantly unprepared for an invasion of Hokkaido. The USSR had the advantage of complete surprise and an uncontested landing, and still ended up taking massive casualties. Without their ability to hit every part of the island chain with naval fire support - or if the islands had been fully garrisoned with 44,000 soldiers instead of 8,000 - there's a good chance they could have been driven into the sea. For some further perspective, consider that the Soviet declaration of war on Japan occurred after the atomic bombs had been dropped, and its surprise invasion of the Kuril Islands occurred after Emperor Hirohito had announced Japans surrender to the allies. It was a successful land grab, but to my mind it shouldn't be considered evidence that the USSR could or would have invaded Hokkaido.

Kaal fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Sep 20, 2015

Tevery Best
Oct 11, 2013

Hewlo Furriend

galagazombie posted:

So here's a question. What happened to all the WWII governments in exile in the west like say, Poland, that found their countries turned into Soviet puppet states after the war. I assume that a lot of them couldn't just head home like the Free French or Norwegians did. Did some try and last a while in the west in vain hope that the communists would leave/get thrown out? Did those who were reasonably sure they weren't on a Soviet kill list decide living in the Warsaw Pact was preferable to never seeing your homeland again? Was their some Hungarian in England during the Soviet breakup running some government in exile out of a tool shed feeling vindicated?

I can't speak for the other countries, but the Polish government-in-exile naturally could not go home. In fact, what few politicians stayed home or went back and tried to take part in communist-permitted forms of political opposition quickly found themselves either running West or on the receiving end of a show trial as soon as Moscow decided keeping up the pretence is no longer necessary.

Thus, the London government (government from this point on, for brevity) did not return home, nor did it disband. After the Temporary Government of National Unity formed in Poland, which involved some opposition politicians, they were informed by the Big Three that they were no longer acknowledged as the legal government, but they protested, claiming that they can only hand over their duties to a legally elected body. They moved out to a bunch of rented buildings. For a while they probably hoped that Soviet aggression would prompt the West into smashing the communist systems, but when that didn't materialize, they just watched one country after another withdrawing recognition (a process that took until 1958). At that point they just hung in a limbo, doing their best to keep the lights on and occasionally hosting some events for émigré Poles, and treating themselves to the kinds of interpersonal drama you'd expect from guardians of a lost cause. But they believed themselves to be the legal heirs of the Polish Republic, and as such, they felt they had an obligation to endure. And they were vindicated when the regime fell. In 1990, the last President in Exile, Ryszard Kaczorowski, handed over his insignia to the newly-elected Lech Walesa, restoring legal continuity to the Polish state. Kaczorowski, while (like other returning expats) not very influential in Polish politics, was much respected. He died in the 2010 Smolensk plane crash.

gipskrampf
Oct 31, 2010
Nap Ghost

galagazombie posted:

So here's a question. What happened to all the WWII governments in exile in the west like say, Poland, that found their countries turned into Soviet puppet states after the war. I assume that a lot of them couldn't just head home like the Free French or Norwegians did. Did some try and last a while in the west in vain hope that the communists would leave/get thrown out? Did those who were reasonably sure they weren't on a Soviet kill list decide living in the Warsaw Pact was preferable to never seeing your homeland again? Was their some Hungarian in England during the Soviet breakup running some government in exile out of a tool shed feeling vindicated?

The Belorussian government in exile (http://www.radabnr.org/indexen.html) is still going strong after formed in 1919 when the Bolsheviks conquered the Belorussian National Republic. After the fall of the Soviet Union there were some movements towards symbolically handing back their power to the newly formed democratic state like in Poland, but the election of Lukashenko put an end to that.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Synnr posted:

No worries, I was just curious.
I mean, I've already got it translated, I could just type it out. The translation is very unsure in places--not sure what's going on with #1, for instance.

1. 3,100 scudi, which the regiment was supposed to have received Extra Ordinaria, are charged, but it will be that such Extra were shared out before the mustering, which however have no ground, because the muster-places are always far away, can be credited to the regiment for - - - - -3,100

2. The 10,000 scudi which Adjutant di Costa received for His Grace in Germany, can likewise not be credited to the regiment, but go in the same - - - - 10,000

3. The gulden was reckoned only at 63 soldi and 4 denarii, but the Viador General had expressly promised His Grace in Gallerata at the first mustering that it would pay out at 66 soldi, this comes for the entire time to - - - - - 13,818

This one's interesting--loving with the coinage was a thing that mercenary commanders were vulnerable to. Imagine if before every contract you had to hash out how many cents made a dollar with your employer.

4. After correct accounting with the monecioner [munitioner, person having to do with supply] it was found that the latter had allotted too much bread, which comes to - - - - 7,384

5. For women, children, and servants, for their daily support - - - - - 13,464

6. The dead pays, which after the reception of the contract were done well, must come to - - - - - 4,000

Often, a mercenary commander has the customary right to "dead pays," spots on the muster roll that are not occupied by anyone but for which he receives money anyway. This is open and legal--Vizthum von Eckstedt is saying that the Duke of Feria is neglecting his customary obligations, and in such a conservative culture this is bad news..

7. The entire regiment from the 31st of March until the 30th of June 1627 had received no Comis-bread [bread from the commissary, rations], but only 13 soldi support, which adds up to, and is due to the Regiment in all correctness, and therefore to give satisfaction to the same Regiment they will have owed - - - - 8,630

Grammar in original. Vizthum von Eckstedt is so angry his big German sentences are getting away from him

8. A half month's pay at dismissal according to the contract comes to - - - 8,035

9. The three solt, which the Duke of Feria ordained to give daily on top of each ration, over and above the other support, and not to have it charged, he promised with princely words, but now such princely words and promises about the set-down and aforementioned 3 Solt are entirely annulled, come to - - - - 31,753

Remember those guys who were sentenced to death for talking about how they were promised three soldi a day more than they ended up receiving? I found the discrepancy.

In all, 128,084 scudi

Here the 64,563 too much that the regiment received shall be taken away, so the Regiment has after the presentation

63,521 Scudi.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Sep 20, 2015

Frostwerks
Sep 24, 2007

by Lowtax

Frostwerks posted:

Could you ask for a better start?

gently caress, I should have gone with a joke about the clean wehrmacht.

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010
Do we know what the Russian naval force used for the kuriles and allocated to Hokkaido looked like?

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003

Frostwerks posted:

gently caress, I should have gone with a joke about the clean wehrmacht.

Lmao.

I'm again going to recommend Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan, which for some reason is posted as a full pdf on this totally-non :filez:, very searchable Russian website :v:

quote:

In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:
The Journal of Military History 69.4 (2005) 1254-1255
Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan.
By Tsuyoshi Hasegawa. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 2005. ISBN 0-674-01693-9. Maps. Photographs. Notes. Index. Pp. 382. $29.95.

Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's Racing the Enemy is a significant contribution to our understanding of the final months of World War II in the Pacific. Provocative, balanced, and thoroughly documented, it should be required reading for anyone interested in the history of the war, as well as those with an interest in the complexities of war termination.

Most studies of American policy during this crucial period focus on the decision to use the atomic bomb, or view the end of the Pacific War in terms of a Cold War framework. Little has been written about Japan's leaders who, though aware the war was lost, were unable to find an acceptable formula to bring the fighting to an end. Until recently, Soviet documents were unavailable to researchers. Relying extensively on primary material from American, Russian, and Japanese archives, Racing the Enemy corrects all of these shortcomings, weaving the strategies and actions of the primary actors into a coherent whole and providing an international perspective lacking in previous studies.

Shifting from Washington to Moscow to Tokyo, Hasegawa illuminates the high-stakes diplomatic game Truman and Stalin played, set against the context of Japan's confused effort to find an acceptable resolution to the conflict. In Tokyo, a peace group, faced with hard-line army leaders determined to mount a last-ditch defense, enlisted the authority of the emperor in support of an approach to Moscow. Stalin, duplicitous as ever, held out the possibility of mediation while secretly preparing to enter the war against Japan. In Washington, the Americans tried to balance the competing interests of ending the war with Japan quickly while preventing Soviet expansion into the Pacific.

Hasegawa brings these threads together at Potsdam in June 1945. It was here that Truman learned of the success of the Manhattan Project, allowing him to resist Stalin's efforts to obtain a clear Allied request for Russian participation against Japan. Stalin wanted this as political cover for breaking the nonaggression pact with Japan. Truman and Byrnes, already wary of Soviet intentions, viewed the A-bomb as an alternative to Russian entry into the war. The author goes on to describe the dropping of the two atomic bombs on Japan, the launch of Soviet military operations in the Far East, and the ensuing deliberations within the Japanese leadership ultimately leading to their surrender. While the overall outlines of these events may be well known, Racing the Enemy offers new detail and insight into this critical period.

In a concluding chapter, Hasegawa speculates on a number of different scenarios and questions, including whether the atomic bomb forced Japan's capitulation. He argues it was not the shock of the A-bombs, but Soviet entry into the war that finally compelled the Japanese to surrender. In his view, fear of Soviet expansion and influence was of greater concern than the prospect of more cities being destroyed.

Racing the Enemy is detailed, clearly written, and is highly recommended to serious historians as well as the general reader with an interest in the Second World War.

David T. Fuhrmann
Tenafly, New Jersey

P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007

Someone likened the crazy nonsense going on in 1856 to Game of Thrones, so I considered it appropriate to take a break between seasons after a shocking bloodbath. (Actually I was on vacation and then starting a new job, so I had to put this on the back burner for a bit). It's customary for historians to skip over 1857 and 1858, as there is an awful lot of bloody but confusing and indecisive fighting going on. I'll do my best to make sense of it.

Taiping Tianguo


Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
Part 4 Part 5 Part 6
Part 7 Part 8 Part 9
Part 10 Part 11 Part 12
Part 13 Part 14 Part 15
Part 16 Part 17 Part 18
Part 19 Part 20

Recap
Hong Xiuquan, convinced he is the younger brother of Jesus Christ, leads a rebellion against Manchu rule. After a stunningly successful campaign, the Taiping army seizes Nanjing and establishes a new state. Their armies crush the weak and corrupt imperial forces, but overreach when they launch simultaneously campaigns to the north and south. The Xiang army, a gentry led militia, begins to turn the tide from their base in Hunan. The Taiping hold out, and seem to turn the tide when they destroy the imperial army besieging their capital. At this critical moment, they fall into a bloody internal power struggle that leaves much of their original leadership dead and the survivors struggling to hold the movement together.


The Decline and Fall of the Taiping Army
The internal dissension crippled the emerging Taiping state. The bureaucracy, never as developed as that of the Qing, was largely composed of the East King and his servants, who have now been ruthlessly exterminated. When Shi Dakai leaves with many of the remaining comnpetent commanders, the resistance to Zeng Guofan will fall into the hands of the best two generals the Taiping have left- The "four-eyed dog", the future Brave King Chen Yucheng and the future Loyal King Li Xiucheng. These are talented military commanders and Li Xiucheng in particular will show a gift for civil administration. With the Taiping government still in the hands of Hong and his incompetent brothers, he will soon be left effectively alone to both command the armies and formulate strategy.


Li Xiucheng, the Loyal King


Chen Yucheng, the Brave King

In 1856 the Nien forces to the north of Taiping territory swell with tens of thousands of recruits following devastating floods. This huge force is largely focused on its base area of northern Anhui, but could tip the balance in the Yangtze area if persuaded to intervene. Li Xiucheng is under siege in Tongcheng and the Taiping position in Anhui is desperate for relief. Fortunately, he has with him a man named Li Zhaoshou. Li Zhaoshou was a Nien chief who had surrendered himself and his army to imperial Daotai He Guizhen. Shortly after surrendering, though, he uncovered secret correspondence in which He receives orders to remove the untrustworthy Li. The enraged Li murders He and flees, eventually joining up with Taiping forces. Li Xiucheng dispatches Li to reestablish contact with his former Nien comrades. The plan succeeds spectacularly, and Zhang Lexing and other major Nien chiefs bring their armies to Anhui and accept titles from the Taiping government. Meanwhile, Li Xiucheng has also requested assistance form Chen Yucheng. Chen's relief army strike the imperial besiegers in the rear as Li Xiucheng sallies forth, and the imperial army is crushed.

The Taiping armies are swelled with Nien and recruits from the starving peasantry. They have never been stronger in numbers, but at the same time discipline, organization, and leadership have never been weaker. The original veterans who took Nanjing in 1853 can be relied on, if simply because the Qing are unlikely to accept surrender from the "real longhairs." The more recent recruits could be and often were threatened or bribed into imperial service. Ominously, men like Li Zhaoshou have already switched sides twice. To maintain loyalty of his wavering generals, Hong begins promoting many additional leaders to wang status (the character used is slightly modified and historians often translate these titles as "prince" and not "king".) This solves the loyalty issue temporarily, but confuses the already inchoate command structure. The Taiping armies serve their general, and their generals are often acting entirely on their own accord. The main armies under Li Xiucheng and Chen Yucheng will maintain more of the old Taiping discipline, but myriad smaller bands become barely distinguishable from bandits, terrorizing the common people as much as the Green Standard does.

And the common people suffer greatly indeed. Floods and natural disasters occur with greater frequency as the dikes have been neglected, and neither side has resources to spare for disaster relief. A population already on the knife edge of Malthusian disaster will fall into a downward spiral as land is abandoned by starving peasants turned into refugees, bandits, soldiers or prisoners. Internal transport of food and other necessities is disrupted as the rebellion cuts off the Yangtze and the Grand Canal. The only merchants who can trade safe from both sides are foreigners, whose ships are typically more suited for transporting silk and opium than food. Most peasants would have nothing with which to pay regardless. Entire villages will disappear, leaving behind only ruins and the bleached bones of the unburied dead. In some of the hardest hit areas, the taboos against consuming human flesh give way. While incidents are greatly exaggerated in lurid popular rumors, the reality is bad enough, even if most cannibals only eat the flesh of those who have died of natural causes.

A man not yet thirty, with no formal education, Li will rise to the occasion as the great Taiping commander of the second half of the war. The gap in leadership capability will only widen, though. Li and Chen are only two men, and there are few men with education and leadership experience available to command the Taiping armies and run the Taiping state. Their enemies, meanwhile, have men like Zeng Guofan, Li Hongzhang, and Zuo Zongtang, with many other men of learning and talent available to assist them in reconquering cities and maintaining order. It seems an odd thing, to say that the imperial government was full of talent considering its performance to date. The explanation is that the Qing started the war with all of the talented commanders they needed- nowhere near command positions, which were staffed primarily on the basis of bribery, nepotism, and Manchu ethnicity. Now, sheer necessity is propelling the most talented men to the top, and incompetents to exile or early graves. This process has a side effect with implications for the future of the empire. The governors and generals which were split evenly between Manchu and Han at the start of the war will be overwhelmingly Han by its end.

The Xiang Counterattack
With Taiping forces occupied destroying the southern barracks and then themselves, Zeng Guofan's Xiang army receives a much needed respite. Zeng is still isolated in Nanchang, but the army he built still functions, and field commanders like Bao Chao and Li Xuebin will prove much more succesful battlefield commanders than Zeng himself. The bloody siege at Wuchang turns in their favor once Shi Dakai leads his army back to Nanjing in the fall of 1856. Yang Caifu, commander of the Xiang naval forces, successfully prevents reinforcement and supply by river, and the isolated garrison is slowly ground down by Li Xuebin's ground army. Their commander, Wei Chun, is Wei Changhui's cousin, and news of Changhui's bloody fall no doubt contributes to the collapse of Taiping morale. Hubei governor Hu Linyi's forces seize Wuchang and Hanyang from the fleeing Taiping.

It is the first step in a fairly well thought out strategy that Zeng had first formulated several years earlier. It had collapsed ignominously with the naval defeat at Jiujiang, but Zeng and the Xiang army commanders are farsighted enough to distinguish tactical failures from strategic ones. The plan was simple- to seize control of the river, then reduce isolated Taiping strongpoints one by one. Once the upstream cities are firmly in imperial hands , Nanjing could be isolated and encircled. It is a slow, steady process, not unlike the crushing coils of some kind of constricting snake. The ability of the Xiang army to pick a sound plan and stick to it despite sometimes very threatening developments contributed greatly to their success.

Zeng himself does not oversee these victories. It a testament to his talent at building an army that it functions so well without him. He had been granted leave in 1857 following the death of his father, and refuses orders to return for an entire year. He protests to the government that he cannot take responsibility for military affairs without being given the power and authority needed to obtain funds and cooperation from other officials. His resignation accepted, Zeng seems happy to return home. It is not until 1858 that he is finally persuaded to return to action.

Following the capture of Wuchang, Hubei was relatively easily pacified and Hunan secured from possible attack (or so it seems). Yang Caifu has built the Xiang army a powerful surface fleet of purpose built warships that, when used properly, easily outmatch the Taiping navy. The Taiping were able to resist for a time by careful coordination with land based fortifications, but this inherently defensive and inflexible strategy can only hold out so long. With internal problems and the decimation of their leadership, effective naval resistance falls apart and the Xiang navy advances relentlessly downriver. They begin 1857 by laying siege to Jiujiang. The decision is made to take Hukou to isolate Jiujiang, as Zeng had attempted previously. Taiping commander "Tiger" Huang Wenqin has heavily fortified the chokepoint of Hukou. This time, however, Yang Caifu's navy and Li Xuebin's infantry carefully coordinate and steer clear of possible traps.

The operation to retake Jiujiang is put on hold temporarily to deal with a Taiping counterattack on Hubei. The Taiping army of Chen Yucheng, swelled by recruits from Nian rebels as well as the starving masses of Anhui, seeks to retake Wuchang, assuming Xiang army forces to be fully committed in Jiujiang. Instead, sufficient reserve forces under talented commanders like the Manchu Duolunga and the Hunanese Bao Chao blunt the Taiping advance. They tie Chen's army down in attritional warfare until Li Xuebin returns to tip the balance and drive the Taiping forces back to Anhui. The days of inevitable Taiping victory have passed, and it is now the Xiang army which is the premiere fighting force in China, man for man.

Li returns his attention to Jiujiang, and in October an attack is finally launched on Hukou. Their forces are joined by the naval force of Peng Yuliang, which had been stranded in Poyang lake years before. They successfully break out, devastate the Taiping navy, and force Huang to retreat from Hukou. Jiujiang is now completely isolated, but does not fall easily. After months of siege, the Xiang army finally blow a tunnel under the wall and seize the city in May of 1858. The Taiping garrison neither asks for nor recieves quarter.

The imperial navy soon clears the river between Wuchang and Hukou, but the battle is not yet won. To truly control the entire Yangtze and clear a path to Nanjing, they must first take Anqing, a city whose importance cannot be overstated. The Vicksburg of China must fall, and Zeng Guofan will be the man who must make it happen.


Next I'll get into the Arrow War. I'm going to hold off on the Miao rebellion since I want to discuss it in conjunction with the Panthay and I still need to read up on that one more.

I've been listening to y'all who want to read everything in one go because Chinese names are hard to remember. I've been thinking of turning this into a book project, and part of that will be going through the text, and seeing which names recur and which can be safely relegated to footnotes. I'm thinking there might actually be a place in the world for a history that incorporates the Taiping and the half dozen other rebellions into a combined coherent narrative. The academic literature pulls the various threads of the history apart for closer individual examination, because a chronological approach is hopelessly convoluted. I'm thinking I'd aim to turn the lack of depth into a strength and refocus on the forest since much better writers than myself have covered the trees.

I've still got a lot of research to do so this is far in the future,I still need to learn Chinese, etc. Also need a title. I was thinking "The Twenty Years War".

e: alternately, I could put that energy into unfucking some of the wikipedia articles, but it's wikipedia.

P-Mack fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Sep 20, 2015

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard

bewbies posted:

So, the US army is starting to give serious thought to abandoning the brigade/BCT as the basic deployable element and going back to division as the primary employment echelon. That was a cool experiment I guess.
Are there any further details available about that?

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

Slaan posted:

Aren't documents normally declassified after 50 years? Shouldn't we have access to all of that now?

The stuff the Americans found regarding the Nazi nuclear bomb project is still mostly classified, and will only become fully declassified in 2045.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

Last call to buy the book! Return it 48 hours later for all I care, but buy the thing and give me a sales bump.

100 Years Ago

Yesterday: Finding a good place to do mining on the Western Front can be rather like Goldilocks; you need a place that's not too wet, and not too dry, but just right. Corporal Moylan of the 1/7th Londons needs emergency dental surgery after coming a cropper on an army biscuit, and the world is falling out of Kenneth Best's bottom once more.

Today: The British Empire continues to cover itself in something other than glory in Tanzania. There's no show-stopping intervention by bees this time, but the responsible officer still manages to march two companies of men into each other, with predictable results. The BEF is singing about all the artillery that's been brought up for the Battle of Loos (the preliminary bombardment is imminent), Kenneth Best still has the trots, and extremely bad news for Louis Barthas, as he gets orders to move on the eve of a major offensive.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
Awesome to hear you are pretty serious about also publishing this stuff into a proper book P-Mack.

Hazzard
Mar 16, 2013
I will buy the book later. I read a few updates on the blog and didn't know how much I needed this.

Nebakenezzer posted:

The stuff the Americans found regarding the Nazi nuclear bomb project is still mostly classified, and will only become fully declassified in 2045.

What's the justification behind this?

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Hazzard posted:

What's the justification behind this?

Well we won't know until they become declassified.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Well we won't know until they become declassified.

Einstein was playing both sides, that's why he built a time machine and killed Hitler by giving him a handshake.

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



Hazzard posted:

What's the justification behind this?

They really don't want information about nuclear bomb design and uranium-235 production to be declassified. Although with all the information out there, everyone knows to make a 20-kiloton nuclear bomb, the real challenge is purifying uranium-235 without the Americans noticing. Plutonium-239 bombs are trickier, but with a helpful friend any country with the wealth and technology of North Korea can pull it off.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

Chamale posted:

They really don't want information about nuclear bomb design and uranium-235 production to be declassified. Although with all the information out there, everyone knows to make a 20-kiloton nuclear bomb, the real challenge is purifying uranium-235 without the Americans noticing. Plutonium-239 bombs are trickier, but with a helpful friend any country with the wealth and technology of North Korea can pull it off.

There's this, and also when it was classified the United States really, really, really didn't want to help the Soviets in their atom bomb endeavors. At the time people also thought it might be possible that the Atom bomb would remain a United States monopoly.

If you've read My Tank is Fight, Zack Parsons does a rundown of the German atomic bomb program. It makes me think there might be another reason why German research was classified so hard. The two accepted ways to make a atom bomb are the 'gun' type method, and the implosion method, all of which demand huge resources to perfect. It sounds like the design the Germans were working on was a design that was meant to work with much less fissile material than the other two designs. Assuming this was true, it'd be of no interest to people with a big-5 level of technology - but might be interesting to smaller powers looking to join the nuclear club.

Squalid
Nov 4, 2008

P-Mack posted:

I've been listening to y'all who want to read everything in one go because Chinese names are hard to remember. I've been thinking of turning this into a book project, and part of that will be going through the text, and seeing which names recur and which can be safely relegated to footnotes. I'm thinking there might actually be a place in the world for a history that incorporates the Taiping and the half dozen other rebellions into a combined coherent narrative. The academic literature pulls the various threads of the history apart for closer individual examination, because a chronological approach is hopelessly convoluted. I'm thinking I'd aim to turn the lack of depth into a strength and refocus on the forest since much better writers than myself have covered the trees.

I've still got a lot of research to do so this is far in the future,I still need to learn Chinese, etc. Also need a title. I was thinking "The Twenty Years War".

e: alternately, I could put that energy into unfucking some of the wikipedia articles, but it's wikipedia.

Seems to me you've already written half a book, might as well finish it imo. Trying to track all the characters in Chinese histories often makes my head ache, anything that simplifies that part of the narrative help's me better engage.

I think your work could use a more descriptive title. "The Twenty Years War" sounds like it could have happened anywhere at anytime, and doesn't draw much attention. Take a look at the titles used by popular histories here: http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/hardcover-nonfiction/list.html Try to use at least one active verb, or a descriptive phrase specific to the era.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Squalid posted:

I think your work could use a more descriptive title. "The Twenty Years War" sounds like it could have happened anywhere at anytime, and doesn't draw much attention. Take a look at the titles used by popular histories here: http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/hardcover-nonfiction/list.html Try to use at least one active verb, or a descriptive phrase specific to the era.
my title is going to be War People because that's what my dudes call themselves (like most other groups, their word for themselves is People) and because it sounds like The Fierce People or something. the subtitle is going to be pompous and horrible, and i'll hate it

Squalid
Nov 4, 2008

I like that title Hegel. The Chinese during the Taiping Rebellion had a lot of amazing titles good for piquing a reader's curiosity, like the Ever Victorious Army, or the Brave Camps. I could see a similar tack working for P-Mack.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

HEY GAL posted:

my title is going to be War People because that's what my dudes call themselves (like most other groups, their word for themselves is People) and because it sounds like The Fierce People or something. the subtitle is going to be pompous and horrible, and i'll hate it

Shooting Pistols Out A Window For Fun And Profit

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

NO HALF MEASURES - Jesus's Brother and the Chinese Pesantry try to end the Manchu Dynasty and set up a Christan Theocracy in China - and they get it a bit wrong

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003

Nebakenezzer posted:

It sounds like the design the Germans were working on was a design that was meant to work with much less fissile material than the other two designs. Assuming this was true, it'd be of no interest to people with a big-5 level of technology - but might be interesting to smaller powers looking to join the nuclear club.

The only way to use less fissile material for a same-sized bang is a more efficient implosion, since to my knowledge there are no other 'grand' design alternatives outside smashing a fuckload of U235 at each other at horrible cost and weight. Hollow cores, levitated ones, two-point or linear implosion, boosting, and ultimately thermonuclear: you get there by first building a big soccerball of high explosives shooting into a plutonium sphere, and moving onwards with the data you gather.

The Germans got absolutely nowhere on weapons research anyway, dabbling around with macro level questions on nuclear fssion. In no way was this near a working weapon design, let alone a deliverable device. I don't know what elpintogrande wrote with regard to their project, but to imply that it somehow has to be kept secret because of its (relatively) advanced nature sounds preposterous to me.

I'd pose the hundred-year rule or whatever imposed on it is yet another example of nuclear secrecy run amok.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

Koesj posted:

The only way to use less fissile material for a same-sized bang is a more efficient implosion, since to my knowledge there are no other 'grand' design alternatives outside smashing a fuckload of U235 at each other at horrible cost and weight. Hollow cores, levitated ones, two-point or linear implosion, boosting, and ultimately thermonuclear: you get there by first building a big soccerball of high explosives shooting into a plutonium sphere, and moving onwards with the data you gather.

The Germans got absolutely nowhere on weapons research anyway, dabbling around with macro level questions on nuclear fssion. In no way was this near a working weapon design, let alone a deliverable device. I don't know what elpintogrande wrote with regard to their project, but to imply that it somehow has to be kept secret because of its (relatively) advanced nature sounds preposterous to me.

I'd pose the hundred-year rule or whatever imposed on it is yet another example of nuclear secrecy run amok.

Oh, poo poo no. What EPG wrote is what you said. All the stuff about another nuclear design was wild-assed speculation on my part. I should have made that clearer.

Suspect Bucket
Jan 15, 2012

SHRIMPDOR WAS A MAN
I mean, HE WAS A SHRIMP MAN
er, maybe also A DRAGON
or possibly
A MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL TEAM
BUT HE WAS STILL
SHRIMPDOR

Nebakenezzer posted:

NO HALF MEASURES - Jesus's Brother and the Chinese Pesantry try to end the Manchu Dynasty and set up a Christan Theocracy in China - and they get it a bit wrong

Hell, just Jesus' Brother Hong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVVOUHTtJkY

Suspect Bucket fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Sep 21, 2015

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe

Mirificus posted:

Are there any further details available about that?

Not publically at least, this is just starting to emerge from experimentation/conceptual stuff.

Basically the BCT has become so overburdened with missions that their headquarters has become...huge, which doesn't jive with the upcoming drawdown. So, the BCTs are relying very heavily on division and corps headquarters, which really defeats the purpose of the "independent BCT". The new factors driving this is stuff like cyber, UAS, and EW, all of which are capabilities/missions that are supposed to reside at the brigade echelon but which have to be seriously enhanced by higher echelons if a brigade is to do them effectively.

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

P-Mack posted:

I love that they stick it in the corner of the map on Euro notes.
:stare:

I always assumed that was random anti-counterfeiting greebles.

HEY GAL posted:

my title is going to be War People because that's what my dudes call themselves (like most other groups, their word for themselves is People) and because it sounds like The Fierce People or something. the subtitle is going to be pompous and horrible, and i'll hate it
"War People - a comprehensive examination of the effects of excessive alcohol consumption upon decision making facilities within the context of early modern small-arms marksmanship in confined spaces".

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

bewbies posted:

Not publically at least, this is just starting to emerge from experimentation/conceptual stuff.

Basically the BCT has become so overburdened with missions that their headquarters has become...huge, which doesn't jive with the upcoming drawdown. So, the BCTs are relying very heavily on division and corps headquarters, which really defeats the purpose of the "independent BCT". The new factors driving this is stuff like cyber, UAS, and EW, all of which are capabilities/missions that are supposed to reside at the brigade echelon but which have to be seriously enhanced by higher echelons if a brigade is to do them effectively.

That actually makes a lot more sense. There are only so many attachments you can throw at a brigade before it starts to look more like a division with only a single combat brigade. If half the corps has to deploy just to support a single brigade then the whole concept makes no sense.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

ArchangeI posted:

That actually makes a lot more sense. There are only so many attachments you can throw at a brigade before it starts to look more like a division with only a single combat brigade. If half the corps has to deploy just to support a single brigade then the whole concept makes no sense.

I guess it says something about modern war when BCTs can't handle all the mission load put on them.

In other three day old news, gently caress F-35, A-10 is God's own support choice, where my prop-driven planes at?

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands
Can anybody recommend any good general overviews on the English Civil War? Preferably something that can be found on a Kindle.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Tomn posted:

Can anybody recommend any good general overviews on the English Civil War? Preferably something that can be found on a Kindle.

you mean my war's less interesting later appendage?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

JcDent posted:

I guess it says something about modern war when BCTs can't handle all the mission load put on them.

In other three day old news, gently caress F-35, A-10 is God's own support choice, where my prop-driven planes at?

The A-29 Super Tucano: the reason why AAMGs remain relevant in the 21st century.

But then again here is one of them getting a legit gunkill on a drug runner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHDZqUa0m1s

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

HEY GAL posted:

you mean my war's less interesting later appendage?

Are you suggesting that there is such a thing as "enough pike and shot"?

But more seriously I've always been a bit fuzzy on what went into the ECW, particularly the aftermath. Something something, Parliament revolts, and then the king's head comes off and suddenly there's a military dictatorship except that disappeared too for some reason? Come to think of it, books on what happened AFTER the Parliamentary victory would be pretty informative as well.

Nothingtoseehere
Nov 11, 2010


Tomn posted:

Are you suggesting that there is such a thing as "enough pike and shot"?

But more seriously I've always been a bit fuzzy on what went into the ECW, particularly the aftermath. Something something, Parliament revolts, and then the king's head comes off and suddenly there's a military dictatorship except that disappeared too for some reason? Come to think of it, books on what happened AFTER the Parliamentary victory would be pretty informative as well.

While it's not a book, the Revolutions podcast (same guy who did History of rome) has a series on the ECW which I found informative all the way up to the restoration of the monarchy.

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Negligent
Aug 20, 2013

Its just lovely here this time of year.

JcDent posted:

I guess it says something about modern war when BCTs can't handle all the mission load put on them.

In other three day old news, gently caress F-35, A-10 is God's own support choice, where my prop-driven planes at?

I feel there is a big gap in the article, specifically if you are flying low and slow in order to shoot people on the ground, doesn't that equally mean its easy for people on the ground to shoot you

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