Tesseraction posted:Yes as a Prime Minister the first thing I'd think of is lying to my citizens to put them in danger of criminals. This could not backfire at all. He doesn't want the refugees to stay in Serbia any longer than necessary. The recipient of that message are not necessarily his own people.
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Sep 21, 2015 08:40
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lol I mean I wouldn't put anything past Vučić but people here are aware we're set to receive refugees for another 5 years at least. Even if they all pass through we'll still deal with the situation years from now. e: what I mean is, even if he gets foreign gov'ts to take in refugees it's not like we won't have more coming in every month SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 09:12
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SaltyJesus posted:lol I mean I wouldn't put anything past Vučić but people here are aware we're set to receive refugees for another 5 years at least. Even if they all pass through we'll still deal with the situation years from now. I'll call this phenomenon "Serbian Realism".
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Sep 21, 2015 09:57
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't apply that standard when I help people, but I'm not the one arguing that there is an unlimited moral duty to help others at your own expense. In this lovely analogy, you're the one saying that anyone who does not give their surplus income above subsistence (or as much of their income as you feel sufficient) to the Red Cross is a bad person, because that money could have been spent on saving lives instead. (Also, the moral duties of individuals do not apply to nation states and vice versa.) If you're not willing to take a stance on the limit of how much someone should be expected to sacrifice in order to help others, you don't actually have a coherent moral framework. If you think there is a limit, then you should be able to explain why limited resources should be used to help some people and not others. If you think it's unlimited, you should be prepared to discuss the ramifications of that. So let me make sure I understand. Your argument is that no refugee should be housed unless we can save all the people in the world and usher in utopia. Is that your argument, and do you really need me to explain why that's stupid? You are arguing against every humanitarian endeavor ever undertaken by man since, to my knowledge, none of them have helped every single person on the globe. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 10:27
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You can't even make this stuff up: http://rudaw.net/NewsDetails.aspx?pageid=159906 quote:The Syrian refugee who was tripped by a Hungarian camerawoman earlier this month was a member of the radical al-Nusra Front and fought the Kurds on many fronts in Syria, the Democratic Union Party (PYD) said Saturday.
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Sep 21, 2015 13:33
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Latvian Television sent guy to Turkey to observe how smugglers help refugees to get over to Europe. There's a video which should give the general idea despite commentary in Latvian. Highlights include smugglers showing refugees boat controls, direction, and bailing out.
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Sep 21, 2015 13:33
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Narciss posted:You can't even make this stuff up:
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Sep 21, 2015 13:52
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Starshark posted:As Richard Littlejohn aptly demonstrates on a near-daily basis, you can actually make this stuff up. And I believe your source was outed last time you tried to use it. Rudaw is a Kurdish news organization; if you have some reason to believe the article is fake feel free to enlighten us.  edit - It begins: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3241889/Syrian-asylum-seeker-German-shelter-filmed-migrants-boasting-having-killed-ISIS.html quote:The Syrian man, who lives in a shelter in the north-east region of Brandenburg, allegedly told other refugees he had been a member of ISIS. Have fun with that, Europe! Narciss fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 13:58
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Narciss posted:Rudaw is a Kurdish news organization; if you have some reason to believe the article is fake feel free to enlighten us. Well, I, for one, am terrified by this news. 
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Sep 21, 2015 14:01
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TomViolence posted:Well, I, for one, am terrified by this news. The guy was being championed as an example of Successful Integration because hey, it's this harmless old man who got tripped by a mean woman and now he's a football coach. Woops, turns out he's a member of Al-Qaeda.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:03
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Man who was fighting in al-Nusra while it was primarily anti-Assad and not overtly pro-Jihad leaves once it becomes overtly pro-Jihad. How is this surprising?
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Sep 21, 2015 14:10
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Tesseraction posted:Man who was fighting in al-Nusra while it was primarily anti-Assad and not overtly pro-Jihad leaves once it becomes overtly pro-Jihad. How is this surprising? If we can't even agree on al-Nusra being bad dudes and that wanting to establish an Islamic Caliphate in the levant is probably a bad thing, I'm not sure we have much common ground to even discuss things. As far as I know al-Nusra was started as an off-shoot of Al Qaeda, it was never a savory group of freedom fighters.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:13
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al-Nusra are bad people, that doesn't mean everyone who joined them were always bad people and will always remain bad people... well to you I suppose they would, since they're brown.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:19
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Tesseraction posted:well to you I suppose they would, since they're brown. Ah and out comes the Racist card (again, Islam isn't a race and Radical Islam certainly isn't either) once it's clear that backpedaling won't suffice. Only here would you be called a racist for saying that maybe it's a bad idea for European nations to let in avowed terrorists. Narciss fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 14:24
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Narciss posted:Ah and out comes the Racist card (again, Islam isn't a race) Who said anything about Islam? I was talking about them being brown. Narciss posted:once it's clear that backpedaling won't suffice. No, once it became clear that you don't know what you're talking about and rely on knee-jerk assumptions that 'their name is Arabic, so every single one of them is an Islamic fundamentalist who stomped babies.' Read the Middle East thread for more on this (but please for the love of God don't post in there). Narciss posted:Only here would you be called a racist for saying that maybe it's a bad idea for European nations to let in avowed terrorists. Avowed terrorist? Tell me where he's shown any kind of interest in bringing down any state other than the dictatorship that America is also trying to bring down in the spirit of bringing 'democracy' to Syria. If they are avowed terrorists, so is the United States.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:30
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Tesseraction posted:Avowed terrorist? Tell me where he's shown any kind of interest in bringing down any state other than the dictatorship that America is also trying to bring down in the spirit of bringing 'democracy' to Syria. If they are avowed terrorists, so is the United States. Al-Nusra is a radical Islamist terror group that wants to establish an Islamic Caliphate in Syria. This guy was a long-time member of the group and apparently fought with them. Am I being trolled here? 
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Sep 21, 2015 14:35
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Other countries need to step up. GCC countries especially, as well as Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, and North/South American countries. This is not only a problem for Europe, and I can't believe that other countries are getting a pass, particularly Japan. They have a duty to help refugees.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:36
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When hundreds of thousands of people are coming from an area with several terrorist or otherwise violent organizations, it's quite likely some of these people have been or are members of these organizations, right guys? I don't know why this is something we should just shrug or lol over. I think it's quite obvious we're receiving bus drivers, students, nurses, doctors, construction workers, electricians, soldiers and killers. Regarding ISIS making threats Europe to the tune of "haa haa, thousands our fighters are infiltrating your infidel countries among asylum seekers, the secret cells will strike one day and your blood will flow while your women taken as loot", quite likely, that's pro-level strategic alignment by the Islamic state  It's a good publicity stunt which makes it sound they are all over the place, hiding anywhere, ready to cut your head off. If this makes EU officials treat Muslims more suspiciously because they believe ISIS propaganda, hey even better, if Muslims feel EU treats them like poo poo and become more radicalized that only serves the Islamic state [note: you don't need to submit the "lol but doesn't EU already treat muslim like poo poo" reply even though you thought of it]. But they are probably far too busy fighting in Syria and Iraq to actually send thousands of allahu akbar -men to hide among asylum seekers. ISIS is also rich as hell. They would possibly find easier ways to get people in than on foot through several countries, fighting fences and border controls, much less on a a dangerous boat trip hiding among asylum seekers.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:37
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Tesseraction posted:America United States America United States America United States. What's your obsession with USA? Can you think of 1) Anything that isn't by some turn of events or another actually USA's fault at least to some extent if not completely 2) Anything you don't have to compare to USA (or perhaps some general Western evil like "colonialism") 3) or count how often do you make a post without going "America United States" on our asses? ISIS tortures prisoners and hits civilian targets -> USA has also tortured prisoners and hits civilian targets = ISIS AND USA ARE THE SAME?!?! AT LEAST WE WESTERNERS DON'T HAVE ANY MORAL UPPER HAND ON MIDDLE-EASTERN MUJAHIDEEN LIKE AL-NUSRA WHO MACHINE GUN CIVILIANS AND USE SUICIDE BOMBERS AND PRACTICE SLAVERY!!! WOW! Yeah totally new and cool and good and rad argument, thumbs up!! Narciss posted:Al-Nusra is a radical Islamist terror group that wants to establish an Islamic Caliphate in Syria. This guy was a long-time member of the group and apparently fought with them. Am I being trolled here? I also had my doubts, but having read Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 14:45
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Finnish thread thrown you out again has it Ligur?Narciss posted:Al-Nusra is a radical Islamist terror group that wants to establish an Islamic Caliphate in Syria. This guy was a long-time member of the group and apparently fought with them. Am I being trolled here? They have fought alongside the other anti-Assad forces since the early days and depending on where one was depends on which anti-Assad force one would join. This is not to say joining al-Nusra is a good idea but fighting the Assad regime under their banner does not make one an 'avowed' terrorist. It is perfectly possible to get involved with them and become disillusioned and leave without having a residual terror gene now active in your body waiting to jihad at a moment's notice. Ligur posted:What's your obsession with USA? Can you think of It's where the poster I'm replying to is from. It's why I bring up Finland when I talk to you or why I bring up the UK a lot.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:52
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Ligur posted:When hundreds of thousands of people are coming from an area with several terrorist or otherwise violent organizations, it's quite likely some of these people have been or are members of these organizations, right guys? Sweden identified at least 40 war criminals/terrorists (regime, ISIS and AQ) among the asylum seekers first half of this year. I know Norway's seen an uptick as well, and I'd assume the same is true elsewhere. No doubt the amount will increase as the war drags on and more fighting men jump ship. Being a literal terrorist/war criminal is a pretty clear-cut reason for being denied asylum, though, and I expect the same will happen to the Syrian football coach (should the allegations be true, etc). Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 14:57
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Tesseraction posted:Finnish thread thrown you out again has it Ligur? Hey now! We Finns get along just fine :3 Tesseraction posted:It's where the poster I'm replying to is from. It's why I bring up Finland when I talk to you or why I bring up the UK a lot. Ahh ok! Can you quickly make a list of countries Finland has: - Invaded - Colonized - Looted from, so they are now under developed - Oppressed - Bombed - You can probably think of further regular Western evils by yourself
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Sep 21, 2015 14:58
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Ligur posted:Ahh ok! Can you quickly make a list of countries Finland has: Well us Brits are still pretty sore about the whole Viking thing... Or more seriously what does this have to do with anything? I haven't at any point equated 'Finland' with 'the West.' For all your whining about me having strange hang-ups about race or America you sure have your own weird latch-ons on these discussions. Do you actually have anything constructive to add to this? Also Narciss I'll be a little clearer here before it becomes fully mired in this cesspit of a derail: if the guy is a bona fide war criminal then yes, he shouldn't just be given a carte blanche, but if he's a defector from one of the war factions then I don't see much of a problem. He could well have taken up arms to protect his family rather than ideological desire for regime change. My point is 'he was one of the fighting forces' does not necessarily mean he's a terrorist.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:03
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finland ain't really where vikings came from 
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Sep 21, 2015 15:04
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Tesseraction posted:Well us Brits are still pretty sore about the whole Viking thing... Finns weren't Vikings. You need to learn more about history.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:04
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SaltyJesus posted:finland ain't really where vikings came from Nothing comes from Finland.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:07
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Narciss posted:The guy was being championed as an example of Successful Integration because hey, it's this harmless old man who got tripped by a mean woman and now he's a football coach. Woops, turns out he's a member of Al-Qaeda. "OMG, guy who was living in the middle of a civil war might have fought on one side or the other, SEND EM ALL BACK!"
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Sep 21, 2015 15:07
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For what it's worth I know, the joke was meant to be on two levels but I suppose unless you know I know it looks like plain ignorance.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:08
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CommieGIR posted:" Don't worry man I got you covered
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Sep 21, 2015 15:29
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CommieGIR posted:"OMG, guy who was living in the middle of a civil war might have fought on one side or the other, SEND EM ALL BACK!" Are you suggesting that countries should let in Al Qaeda and Al Nusra members? What the gently caress
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Sep 21, 2015 15:32
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Sweden identified at least 40 war criminals/terrorists (regime, ISIS and AQ) among the asylum seekers first half of this year. I know Norway's seen an uptick as well, and I'd assume the same is true elsewhere. No doubt the amount will increase as the war drags on and more fighting men jump ship. Well that's not surprising. What's more surprising to me is people getting defensive when someone suggests there are terrorists and religious radicals among the asylum seekers. You can accept the fact without saying or implying something like "but that equals all Arabs are suicide bombers!! Now the racists won!!" I can't remember for the life of me where, but yesterday I stumbled on a piece about a shi'ite militant/terrorist whose group started giving up on their arms and loving off to EU lately because of casualties, exhaustion & and not getting paid regularly Might have been an internet claim though, seemed shady but then again doesn't sound at all unrealistic.Tesseraction posted:Well us Brits are still pretty sore about the whole Viking thing... Finns are still grieved over both at the Swedes and the Russians for lording over us for centuries. Swedes treated us like second class citizens and "simple sub-humans of the forests" up until the 19th century. There isn't even a translation for the expression used, "eräänlaisina metsien pölkkypäinä", I could think of with my English skills. We demand compensation!  No I don't have anything else to add, I was just taking the piss at your latch-ons (latch-on: pretty well put) to see if you'd start ranting about our collective responsibilities to repay for the past ages of colonialism or something 
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Sep 21, 2015 15:33
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The US should let in cartel members, it's not their fault that they were forced to behead people and disembowel them. Those poor, poor refugees.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:34
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Gravel Gravy posted:Nothing comes from Finland. Phones used to come from Finland. Now they certainly don't. Now only this comes from Finland 
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Sep 21, 2015 15:40
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Ligur posted:No I don't have anything else to add, I was just taking the piss at your latch-ons (latch-on: pretty well put) to see if you'd start ranting about our collective responsibilities to repay for the past ages of colonialism or something I'm not against compensation, but frankly I just believe that the world is more than capable of solving 95% of the problems we're currently facing if people weren't so loving timid of the opinion polls and thought more about leading the country rather than following the chitter-chatter.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:40
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Narciss posted:Don't worry man I got you covered Its cool, I got your back too: quote:I'm not sure about a quota, but Tunisia does have a higher proportion of woman in parliament than the US does in Congress. As for your citizenship idea, my God that would be a nightmare. We'd have hordes of mainstream Sunni muslims coming in, going "yup I'm *oppressed religious minority*" and then ghettoing it up in Dearborn, Michigan. You're an idiot who is trying to race bait by equating that there might be a minority of BAD guys among the vast majority of innocents. So, no, your point does not stand. If he was actually part of ISIS or one of the groups, yes, deport him. But you don't get to pretend that you are arguing in good faith considering your history of race baiting and outright blatant bias. FINGERBLASTER69 posted:The US should let in cartel members, it's not their fault that they were forced to behead people and disembowel them. Those poor, poor refugees. "We cannot risk allowing one baddy to enter, so block em all" 
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Sep 21, 2015 15:43
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FINGERBLASTER69 posted:Are you suggesting that countries should let in Al Qaeda and Al Nusra members? What the gently caress  Just because you fought in the German army during wwii doesn't mean you are a war criminal. life and morality is really complicated outside of your head. if that dude is a war criminal, then a court should lock him up for life, if he isn't then no one should lock him up. how about that? realistically there is no way to screen for potential war criminals though, that's why cases like this will happen all the time and no one expected anything else.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:47
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waitwhatno posted:
So by that logic regime figures from oppressive regimes should be let in as well because hey, they chose a side in a civil war! Just because they picked a bad side and executed/tortured people doesn't make them bad guys! And war criminals should not be accepted as the price of letting people flood in. I can't believe some of the things that I'm reading in this thread. "Taking in war criminals is the cost of saving lives" holy poo poo.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:50
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What's that, you're defecting from North Korea? Step up to this wall and smile for the firing squad good buddy we can't have you infecting our democracy.
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Sep 21, 2015 16:00
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Ligur posted:eräänlaisina metsien pölkkypäinä Good God, those words have too many vowels and, somehow, too many consonants
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Sep 21, 2015 16:03
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Even assuming that that guy is an actual member of al-nusra and it's not something made up to nobly discredit the wicked cultural Marxist conspiracy present in liberal media, plenty of people join orgs and gangs that have done/does bad poo poo/will do bad poo poo either before or after they join/leave without turning these ex-members into embodiments of all the evil poo poo these organizations do sometimes. Hell, many often leave when they realize they made a mistake, if they aren't killed for planning to defect before they can make their exit. Do they deserve to be left to be stoned to death or crucified or thrown into a volcano because they are trying to make the right choice and divorce themselves from violent organizations?
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Sep 21, 2015 16:06
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