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And they don't do it in the Alpha Quadrant due to a treaty which everyone abides to for no reason.
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Sep 21, 2015 00:30
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There was also that episode where Eddington's wife bluffs cloaked missiles heading to Cardassia.
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Sep 21, 2015 06:05
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plape
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Sep 21, 2015 06:39
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Okay let's get this thread moving or I'm going to start dropping those weird sexy cheesecake Voyager drawings from Deviant Art
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Sep 21, 2015 21:37
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Please post those drawings.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:54
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shadow puppet of a posted:Please post those drawings.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:57
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Man, Season 6 is so cool. Sisko and crew off on a space ship, the station's under Dominion control, Kira has weird and creepy sexual tension with Gul Dukat, forgets that she used to be a terrorists for a few episodes, then fails to be a terrorist for awhile... I really dig the power politics between the Vorta, the Jem'Hadar and the Founders. The Dominion is honestly the most interesting "villain" I've seen in a Star Trek...well, anything, really. They're cool, they're well-designed, and the stuff you don't know about them is usually on purpose. My girlfriend and I were debating as to why a Vorta comes along with every Jem'Hadar. I explained it was more like a Roman situation, with the Vorta being rich noblemen who buy armies and the Jem'Hadar are the conscripts too poor to say no. Then we discussed whether the Vorta or the Founders are actually responsible for making the Jem'Hadar, and I reckoned that the Founders probably don't actually DO anything in regards to controlling their empire. They lead from the shadows, and I reckon that the Vorta are probably the ones who created the Jem'Hadar, and the Vorta--being genius genetic manipulators--are the chief source of the Founders' artificial military might. The question neither of us could answer is how the Founders earned the Vorta's unwavering worship and loyalty.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:04
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shadow puppet of a posted:Please post those drawings.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:10
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BottledBodhisvata posted:The question neither of us could answer is how the Founders earned the Vorta's unwavering worship and loyalty. BottledBodhisvata posted:Kira has weird and creepy sexual tension with Gul Dukat,
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Sep 21, 2015 22:16
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BottledBodhisvata posted:My girlfriend and I were debating as to why a Vorta comes along with every Jem'Hadar. I explained it was more like a Roman situation, with the Vorta being rich noblemen who buy armies and the Jem'Hadar are the conscripts too poor to say no. Then we discussed whether the Vorta or the Founders are actually responsible for making the Jem'Hadar, and I reckoned that the Founders probably don't actually DO anything in regards to controlling their empire. They lead from the shadows, and I reckon that the Vorta are probably the ones who created the Jem'Hadar, and the Vorta--being genius genetic manipulators--are the chief source of the Founders' artificial military might. Most of this is fairly well explained but possibly easy to miss on a first watch. Spoilers ahead because I'm not sure how much of this is known by season 6. 1) Basically the Jem'Hadar are grunts and the Vorta are analogous to officers. You don't let grunts operate without supervision, there is always an officer around somewhere to make decisions just like any real army today. It's that simple. 2) The Founders are the ones who are the master gene-manipulators. This is clear because the Vorta are as heavily engineered as the Jem'Hadar, just in different ways. The Jem'Hadar's alterations are primarily physical, the Vorta's primarily mental. In both cases loyalty to the founders is heavily ingrained into them. 3) The Founders do indeed operate from behind the scenes most of the time or simply not operate at all and hang out in their pool. In times of peace they probably do very little. Either way pretty much 100% of the day-to-day running of the Dominion is handled by the Vorta, the Founders only handle the highest level decisions or act as elite operatives.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:22
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My memory is dim, but I guess the Vorta are unwaveringly loyal to the Founders because the Founders engineered them that way, and the Vorta always go with the Jem Hadar because otherwise the Jem Hadar wouldn't have anyone to passive-aggressively distrust, disclose seditious feelings towards or spitefully resent, and the Vorta hang around the Jem Hadar because they need someone to generate stupid workplace drama with and argue with about whether or not to hand out the addictive extortion drugs before or after snack time. I mean, the Vorta are cool, and the Jem Hadar are cool, but by the end of the series it sure seems like somebody kind of government-contractor half-assed the whole "let's breed perfect fanatical soldiers and administrators so we can play while they run the empire" thing. Maybe that was the point, I dunno. 
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Sep 21, 2015 22:26
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The Vorta are squirrels, raised up from their nut-stuffed warrens to act as party political morale and discipline officers.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:28
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  god drat, imgur change your interface a few more times every week gently caress Tujague fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 22:29
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But that begs the question of HOW the Founders could do all this stuff while remaining unseen. They have no visible technology--no space ships on their world, no buildings, no infrastructure. If there's any realism to Trek's scale, then you'd need a planet, maybe several planets, devoted entirely to the breeding and manufacture of Jem'Hadar and Vorta. How did the Founders build all this stuff? Weren't they persecuted by the rest of the galaxy so bad they became hermits? Do they possess a biotechnology that we don't ever see, or do they somehow birth the Vorta out of their gooey slime pool ocean? shadow puppet of a posted:Everyone has weird creepy sexual tension with Gul Dukat. My girlfriend thinks Cardassians are kind of hot and I guess this explains it then.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:30
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BottledBodhisvata posted:But that begs the question of HOW the Founders could do all this stuff while remaining unseen. They have no visible technology--no space ships on their world, no buildings, no infrastructure. Keep in mind the Founders relocate once within the series already, so there is no reason to believe the planet we first see them on is their home world. In fact since it's a specifically hard to find planet inside a nebula it almost certainly not their place of origin. It is a retreat for them, a place where they can pool in seclusion, not a seat of power. For all we know their home world (or other worlds since it's implied their home world is long gone) are technological wonders with enormous facilities. Since Dominion territory is not well explored in the series it's hard to say, but it seems to me that judging the Founder's infrastructure by their pool planet would be like judging American military power by looking at G.W's ranch.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:35
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Tujague how could you not post that Harley one? Or these:    
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Sep 21, 2015 22:39
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Janeway got a case of game hen-hand from being in space so long Neelix contracted many similar, simultaneous ailments.  This one looks like a Tupac shirt you'd get at the mall.  This one comes AV-ready. 
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Sep 21, 2015 22:43
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shadow puppet of a posted:This one looks like a Tupac shirt you'd get at the mall. He's livin'!
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Sep 21, 2015 22:44
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Sep 21, 2015 22:44
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The vorta and the jem hadar are designed the way they are so that they'll never overthrow the founders. The jem hadar and vorta don't like each other, so they could never work together if they didn't have to. The jem hadar can't survive without their ketracel white, the vorta aren't fighters and couldn't do much of anything without the jem hadar, and all of them are genetically programmed to worship the founders. Also, it was stated in one episode that the Vorta started as some sort of little squirrel or monkey creature, which the founders took and turned into the vorta. They and the jem hadar were created, basically from scratch, to be exactly what the founders wanted them to be.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:45
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I was going to try again with the whole "Virtuoso genetic engineers who create poo poo from the ground up shouldn't really need multiple semi-functional redundant control features" but I guess it's just not going to penetrate the goon skulls so now I'm going to post this stuff I drew, which would probably be funny again if I get stoned 
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Sep 21, 2015 22:53
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Chomp8645 posted:Keep in mind the Founders relocate once within the series already, so there is no reason to believe the planet we first see them on is their home world. In fact since it's a specifically hard to find planet inside a nebula it almost certainly not their place of origin. It is a retreat for them, a place where they can pool in seclusion, not a seat of power. For all we know their home world (or other worlds since it's implied their home world is long gone) are technological wonders with enormous facilities. Since Dominion territory is not well explored in the series it's hard to say, but it seems to me that judging the Founder's infrastructure by their pool planet would be like judging American military power by looking at G.W's ranch. That makes sense, although I rather liked the idea that the Founders' strategy was entirely in basically using other creatures to service their own goals. It'd be kind of symbolic--the Federation's strength is that it treats other sentient beings as equals, even their enemies. When the Klingons, Romulans and Federation come together, it's a really huge moment--three enemies who had at various points been in full out war with each other are now allies, brothers in arms, standing together against a new and alien threat and also those loving spoon-headed rear end in a top hat. The Dominion see people--solids--as tools, as lesser beings. So, they have the power of super science and fanatical servants but the Federation wins because they have the power...of friendship. I still wish that Garak had loving vaporized their entire planet. Stupid slime monsters.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:59
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I always think most of the weapon type critiques are pretty easy to deal with. One thing that has been almost consistent throughout Trek is that deflector shields defeat impact of solid masses. Otherwise, travelling at warp would be no fun at all, given that there are small debris particles. Imo the technical manuals even state that the weakest navigational deflectors basically deal with all solid objects effordlessly, and that they are based on subspace technology where mass*speed doesn't count as factor (ie see Warp). Whenever a weapon is used, it is some sort of energy. Either phasers, disruptors or a torpedo which has some sort of magic energy explosion which doesn't really have too much impact on the hull (compared to what we can achieve now) but somehow affects shields that can stop micro-comets hitting the ship at warp 9. And even then, it is more or less compatible with canon that phasers target shields while torpedos work against the hull (which is also made out of some intricate future material such that pure TNT probably wouldn't do poo poo). It's quite possible to say that the weapons in Trek are built to a specific purpose, much like kinetic penetrators in tanks are today: big explosions do not penetrate the actual armor of the tank and at best damage the tracks (and the crew by vibration/shock). Instead, kinetic penetrators are used which would do comparably little gainst softer targets. Photon torpedos may not be overly impressive in making a big explosions (this is supported by Voyager carrying otherwise useless explosion torpedos called Tricobalt), but they serve their penetration purposes for whatever special space poo poo the Klingons and Romulans could come up with as armor. These armors, together with basically magic subspace deflector shields, seem to defeat both big explosions and mass/speed based penetrators - pretty much consistently throughout Trek. So that's probably why you don't see them as weapons. It's a fair assumption that earth, main world of the federation, has some sort of mobile or wide range deflector shield or tractor beam assembly which would automatically get rid of any asteroid thread. Boner Slam fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 23:04
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are you cut-and-pasting poo poo from some sperg fansite or v awesome Tujague fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 23:07
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Tujague posted:are you cut-and-pasting poo poo from some sperg fansite or On the contrary, I just literally typed this into my computer.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:09
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Tujague posted:I was going to try again with the whole "Virtuoso genetic engineers who create poo poo from the ground up shouldn't really need multiple semi-functional redundant control features" but I guess it's just not going to penetrate the goon skulls so now I'm going to post this stuff I drew, which would probably be funny again if I get stoned If I were to make a race of super soldiers, I would absolutely want a dozen failsafes built in, so they don't get any bright ideas and kill everybody and start a new society they can't really have, cause all they know is killing.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:12
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Boner Slam posted:I always think most of the weapon type critiques are pretty easy to deal with. but not the breen
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Sep 21, 2015 23:14
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The General posted:If I were to make a race of super soldiers, I would absolutely want a dozen failsafes built in, so they don't get any bright ideas and kill everybody and start a new society they can't really have, cause all they know is killing. Well, then my impression would be that you are more inept at breeding perfect soldiers than illiterate Scottish bumpkins from the 1700s are at breeding sheepdogs, and I would be unable to suspend disbelief long enough to buy that you were a galactic-class genius with incredible future technology and untold millennia at your disposal to get the kinks out of the program Holy poo poo is this really that hard to understand?
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Sep 21, 2015 23:20
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Tujague posted:Well, then my impression would be that you are more inept at breeding perfect soldiers than illiterate Scottish bumpkins from the 1700s are at breeding sheepdogs, and I would be unable to suspend disbelief long enough to buy that you were a galactic-class genius with incredible future technology and untold millennia at your disposal to get the kinks out of the program i dont watch star trek but this doesnt make any sense. also y r u so angry over nerd poo poo
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Sep 21, 2015 23:31
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curious lump posted:i dont watch star trek but this doesnt make any sense. also y r u so angry over nerd poo poo sort of right that I get annoyed when people are dense but nobody is genuinely as stupid as you are trying to sound so congrats
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Sep 21, 2015 23:35
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Tujague posted:sort of right that I get annoyed when people are dense but nobody is genuinely as stupid as you are trying to sound so congrats help the brony guy is getting mad at me
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Sep 21, 2015 23:41
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Tujague posted:I was going to try again with the whole "Virtuoso genetic engineers who create poo poo from the ground up shouldn't really need multiple semi-functional redundant control features" but I guess it's just not going to penetrate the goon skulls so now I'm going to post this stuff I drew, which would probably be funny again if I get stoned There was that one Jem Hadar who didn't need ketracel white, and another Weyoun who tried to defect. I guess if you're creating millions of these clones there's bound to be the occasional mutant who breaks through one layer of control, so you need multiple redundancies to keep them in line.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:43
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"WHY DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND!?" Tujague yells as he bolts up from his chair. His fedora flies of his head and catches a lamp, which tumbles to the floor and shatters it's bulb. From downstairs his mother yells that he better not be breaking stuff again like the last time he got into an argument on the internet.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:45
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BottledBodhisvata posted:But that begs the question of HOW the Founders could do all this stuff while remaining unseen. They have no visible technology--no space ships on their world, no buildings, no infrastructure. All of Dominion technology is the founder's technology technically, they just choose to hang out on a hidden rock in the eternal orgy sea. Even that planet had some technology on it though. Weyuon said the Dominion was 10,000 years old. Back in the beginning the changlings probably had to sully themselves with things like flying the ships or researching advanced gene slicing themselves, but they created the vorta and taught them to do it. After being maintained and incrementally upgraded by the vorta for so long, I doubt much of the original remains, but it's still all based on the founder's technology. Cloning and breeding and manufacturing facilities in the alpha quadrant are mentioned in the show, but I bet the gamma quadrant has some 40k type poo poo going on, with entire factory worlds and such. The Dominion is bigger than anything, except the borg collective next door. I was always disappointed there weren't more vorta though. I guess Weyuon like personally ran everything in the alpha quadrant, except for one or two extras, and Iggy Pop of course. Like when DS9 was occupied, there should have been several other Weyuons doing stuff in the background, all of them played by Jeffery Combs.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:53
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im gay
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Sep 21, 2015 23:54
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I definitely get a 40k vibe from the Dominion, although it also seems to suggest that there's a buffer zone of "unoccupied space" between the Dominion and the Wormhole. Like, a bunch of aliens come through the wormhole and they only know of the Dominion as this huge authoritarian force nearby, but never particularly present. Then again, it could be that the discovery of the Wormhole prompted the Dominion/The Founders to just finish taking over the Quadrant. I dunno, I have to see how the war ends, but I do not expect the Dominion to exist anymore once Captain Sisko is through with them. They did find Odo on a space ship, come to think of it, so they must have some kind of vessels they send out. Actually, wasn't Odo one of a crop of young Changelings dispatched to "explore the stars"? He's the only one who had returned, but I'm surprised they hadn't brought in another one to act as a foil to Odo. Or is that what the implication was of the little baby Changeling Odo adopts at one point?
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Sep 21, 2015 23:57
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Boner Slam posted:It's a fair assumption that earth, main world of the federation, has some sort of mobile or wide range deflector shield or tractor beam assembly which would automatically get rid of any asteroid thread. Or they still use those giant gently caress-off lasers, even if they get hijacked by space Bond villains occasionally.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:07
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Crashbee posted:There was that one Jem Hadar who didn't need ketracel white, and another Weyoun who tried to defect. I guess if you're creating millions of these clones there's bound to be the occasional mutant who breaks through one layer of control, so you need multiple redundancies to keep them in line. There were also jem hadar shooting without orders, talking poo poo to their wounded boss, talking poo poo about their wounded boss to the enemy, refusing direct orders to kill klingons, starting insubordinate arguments about who was born in the Gamma quadrant and who was born in the Alpha quadrant, and blah blah blah. I guess they should have built in more redundancies because of these drat mutants. I mean, maybe it was the only interesting direction to take the characters after relentlessly framing them as perfect soldiers, but after season 6 started they started sounding more like these fat tough guy tard posters and it got tiresome.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:09
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Tujague posted:There were also jem hadar shooting without orders, talking poo poo to their wounded boss, talking poo poo about their wounded boss to the enemy, refusing direct orders to kill klingons, starting insubordinate arguments about who was born in the Gamma quadrant and who was born in the Alpha quadrant, and blah blah blah. I guess they should have built in more redundancies because of these drat mutants. None of those cases involve the Jem Hadar rebelling against the Dominion though, they're still operating within spec as obedient soldier-slaves. If anything those stories are showing the practical limits of the genetic super soldier trope - the Jem Hadar have enough free will to operate autonomously for years on end, but they're also clearly aware that their loyalty is conditioned rather than earned, even if they're unable to do anything about it. How much genuine loyalty would you be able to expect from someone who knows they're programmed to die for you? Crashbee fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 00:42
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Crashbee posted:None of those cases involve the Jem Hadar rebelling against the Dominion though, they're still operating within spec as obedient soldier-slaves. If anything those stories are showing the practical limits of the genetic super soldier trope - the Jem Hadar have enough free will to operate autonomously for years on end but they're also clearly aware that their loyalty is conditioned rather than earned, even if they're unable to do anything about it. How much genuine loyalty would you be able to expect from someone who knows they're programmed to die for you? How is refusing an order from the guy the dominion specifically sent to boss you around not rebelling against the dominion? How is flat disobeying any order ever within spec as obedient? Are you using the Mirror Universe definition? What does 'practical limits' mean to a fictional alien slave race from a sci-fi show? How much loyalty do I expect from someone who knows they're programmed to be die for me? All of it. Especially if I did the programming. That's what 'programming' means. Every time the Jem Hadar had a speaking role in a late DS9 ep, they did poo poo that wouldn't fly in the U.S. Coast Guard and we don't even genetically manipulate those guys OR get them hooked on crack cocaine.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:05
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