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Wheeee posted:Why? Myself, and likely a significant portion of this forum for automobile enthusiasts, titled Automotive Insanity. I think the forum called Automotive Mediocrity is down the hall
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Sep 21, 2015 20:32
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CornHolio posted:Myself, and likely a significant portion of this forum for automobile enthusiasts, titled Automotive Insanity. $40.00 for a lifetime premium membership? You'd be insane not to buy!
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Sep 21, 2015 20:40
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Thinking more about the VW issue and how they may fix it. What if there isn't a fix? Rather, what if the implications of the car running in "EPA Test Mode" aren't performance or fuel economy related? What if they are engine health related? If running in an emissions compliant mode will affect the medium or long term health of the engine, they may very well be truly hosed. They'll likely be forced to buy back and crush every vehicle on top of paying fines.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:54
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bull3964 posted:Thinking more about the VW issue and how they may fix it. Why would they be forced to crush cars if they were somehow less reliable long term, and more importantly, how would VW owners ever tell the difference?
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Sep 21, 2015 20:57
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Why would they be forced to crush cars if they were somehow less reliable long term, and more importantly, how would VW owners ever tell the difference? VW: thank you, dear customer, for your unwavering support through these tough times. Again, we are deeply sorry for misleading you. Your total bill for parts and labour comes to $$$$. Customer:  how much? VW: well, you see, *laundry list of ridiculous engineering decisions* Customer: best car I ever owned 
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Sep 21, 2015 21:07
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imho they should handle it like they did all those illegally imported GT-Rs. Impound, seize, and crush.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:09
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I'm just thinking of how pissed I would be to bring my brand new Jetta TDI or whatever in for an oil change and leave with half the torque.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:10
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blugu64 posted:imho they should handle it like they did all those illegally imported GT-Rs. Impound, seize, and crush. They might do this for owners that refuse to have their car fixed.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:13
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If they did have to refund customers and buy back the cars, is there any regulatory body stopping them from shipping them overseas and selling them used somewhere that doesn't care about pollution, like China? I don't know if VW is big in China but there must be somewhere that doesn't care about the planet, which means they'd still be out there polluting just as much as if they had stayed here I suppose. Edit: vv no familiar with the cars that much, but all these TDI models came with other engine options, right? Could customers be given the option to swap in a gas engine if they prefer? Edit: Wow I just compared a 2013 Golf TDI to the gas version. I can see why diesel is so desirable, if you actually thought it was meeting environmental standards there's really no downside. Only 30 less hp but way better torque and mileage. I figured it'd be a little closer than it is. davebo fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 21:17
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KillHour posted:They might do this for owners that refuse to have their car fixed. They were illegally imported in the first place. There shouldn't be a 'oops we got caught' option. They should be crushed, and vw should get the tab.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:22
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CornHolio posted:Myself, and likely a significant portion of this forum for automobile enthusiasts, titled Automotive Insanity. No, there's nothing Automotively Insane about about that crap, it's just generic consumer culture driven by aspirational marketing. Automotive Insanity is building an old IROC Camaro into a track car that eats exotics. Anyway, this VW thing is hilariously awesome and the most entertaining thing to happen to the industry since GM management decided to pull a Pinto. Suddenly that Cruze diesel looks a lot better if you want a little diesel car in America!
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Sep 21, 2015 21:27
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What are the chances that the Mercedes diesel engines were doing something similar for emissions testing?
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Sep 21, 2015 21:54
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Wheeee posted:Suddenly that Cruze diesel looks a lot better if you want a little diesel car in America! Speaking of which, I wonder why VW had to cheat on the first place. Unless I'm missing something, the diesel Cruze, 328d, and E-class all get roughly similar power, torque, and fuel economy numbers (well better power and torque in the case of the 328d and E-class) with the same cylinder count and displacement. Did VW cheap out on parts to improve their margins? Or did everyone cheat and this opens up a whole new can of worms?
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Sep 21, 2015 22:02
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The others use Urea injection, VW didn't to hold costs down.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:16
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I was wondering why they were the only ones that didn't need it to hit numbers.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:17
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:The others use Urea injection, VW didn't to hold costs down. Tell VW owners to piss into their fuel tanks, problem solved.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:32
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:The others use Urea injection, VW didn't to hold costs down. That's all that stuff is? I thought, given what I've heard about the price, it was fossilized pygmy tears or something.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:11
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Not really. It's like the difference between ocean water and medical saline. Both salt water, only one you want in your veins.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:15
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Sudo Echo posted:Not really. It's like the difference between ocean water and medical saline. Both salt water, only one you want in your veins. I knew it wasn't literally piss, but I thought it was something distinctly more novel than (even really pure) urea. Am I right in assuming that Mercedes et al. are making a killing off that stuff? Even if synthesized to a very high purity, it simply can't be that expensive.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:33
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The big cost with diesel emissions isn't from the urea itself, it's all the extra components that are expensive as hell and also break at a high rate. Diesels in consumer vehicles are only a thing in other markets due to fuel prices and tax structures, they're actually pretty poo poo car engines. Heavier, slower, more expensive to build, more expensive to maintain, dirtier emissions, and far less reliable than comparable gasoline engines. Unless you spend half your life cruising on the highway they aren't sufficiently more efficient to pay themselves off, either. Diesel cars are for people who want to feel quirky, or European, and who think they're too cool for a hybrid. And on the topic of the Cruze, I'd never personally want one but I have a friend with one and it's an extremely solid little car. I'm also not the only person who's been impressed at how solid a rental Cruze feels. It is of course a product of Euro GM, and I don't like it much, but I do respect the bland little fuckers. I fully expect that years from now, dirt cheap old Cruzes will be the real utilitarian buyer's gem, in place of the Corollas or Civics that are the darlings of that market today.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:38
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You could probably use piss without much trouble. it doesn't run through anything in the engine. exhaust comes out of the engine, through the turbo, through the DPF, then through the SCR reaction chamber, which is where the DEF is injected. the big jugs you see at truck stops are about 30% urea, 70% water. the bajillion dollar a gallon mercedes adblue is eactly the same, in a lot of cases likely filled from the exact same spout in the plant.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:39
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Wheeee posted:The big cost with diesel emissions isn't from the urea itself, it's all the extra components that are expensive as hell and also break at a high rate. Driving a rental Cruze was a non-trivial factor in my decision to buy a Volt. (Same platform.)
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Sep 22, 2015 00:02
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Wheeee posted:
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Sep 22, 2015 00:33
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You Am I posted:At my work we have a Cruze Diesel hatch and it suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Hard, uncomfortable seats, awful UI for the radio, diesel has a gently caress ton of turbo lag and noisy as heck (as well as the lack of a dead pedal/foot rest, but most new cars don't have that due to crash worthiness). The only good thing about it is the amount of front seat travel it has. Every Chevy has the most godawful interior though. That's one of the reasons I'd never by a Corvette. Yes, it's a great piece of engineering, but you have to put up with an interior put together by the same geniuses that gave us the Camaro.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:35
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Wheeee posted:Diesel cars are for people who want to feel quirky, or European, and who think they're too cool for a hybrid. Agreed 100%. They really don't have much of a future in passenger cars, and they shouldn't.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:46
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Wheeee posted:Diesel cars are for people who want to feel quirky, or European, and who think they're too cool for a hybrid. I've been driving a VW my whole life until about a year ago. I wanted a TDI, but I bought a Prius. When I did the math it made way more sense for me.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:49
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Wheeee posted:No, there's nothing Automotively Insane about about that crap, it's just generic consumer culture driven by aspirational marketing. I don't know if you missed the memo, but we currently have three regular posters here who have a Viper, a Lamborghini, and a just purchased Ferrari.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:51
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davebo posted:If they did have to refund customers and buy back the cars, is there any regulatory body stopping them from shipping them overseas and selling them used somewhere that doesn't care about pollution, like China? I don't know if VW is big in China but there must be somewhere that doesn't care about the planet, which means they'd still be out there polluting just as much as if they had stayed here I suppose. China actually has relatively strict emissions standards for cars, and diesel passenger cars are more or less banned even harder than the US. There are occasionally higher end MB or LR diesel trucks, but no diesel Golfs or anything like that. China's air quality problems are caused by the massive use of coal. VW's diesel take rate was very high because VW's gas engines are all relics from the late 1990s that are laughable compared to a Honda or Mazda engine. Also if you want a diesel with an automatic then enjoy your pot metal DSG transmission which VW has been promising for the last 10 years will finally be reliable with the newest mechatronic/software flash any day now guys. quote:It is of course a product of Euro GM The original Cruze was primarily a product of GM Korea formerly Daewoo. The Euro market Cruze is even built in Korea. It went on sale in Korea and China 2 years before it was brought to the US. Amusingly enough, the average Chinese consumer, if you ask him about American cars, has pretty much the same experience that American consumers do - poor fuel economy, poo poo auto transmissions but somewhat made up for by being a bit larger and a bit more quiet than Japanese cars. Except in this case it's not because GM cars all have huge murrican pushrod engines but because all GM Korea's power trains just suck.
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Sep 22, 2015 00:57
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HotCanadianChick posted:I don't know if you missed the memo, but we currently have three regular posters here who have a Viper, a Lamborghini, and a just purchased Ferrari. And other expensive cars too, at least until people started being goons and creeped them out of the forum.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:12
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Exotic halo cars are good for everyone, not just the people that own them.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:22
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MikeyTsi posted:And other expensive cars too, at least until people started being goons and creeped them out of the forum. WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING AND WHAT WAS YOUR MAJOR AND WHERE DID YOU GO TO SCHOOL AND HOW OLD ARE YOU AND HOW RICH ARE YOUR PARENTS AND WHY IS MY LIFE SO PATHETIC
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Sep 22, 2015 01:58
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El Scotch posted:Exotic halo cars are good for everyone, not just the people that own them. Half the fun of driving something exotic is sharing the experience with other people. I spent several days giving friends and my neighbors rides in the i8, R8, and Huracan.
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Sep 22, 2015 03:02
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CornHolio posted:I'm kind of sad because I know that the crazy-arm VAG stuff like Lamborghini, Bugatti and Porsche are going to take the brunt of this. If they cancel the 919 or the Veyron replacement to help pay for this, I'll be pretty mad. I doubt they let it impact Porsche TOO much since that's one of the most profitable parts of VAG. They need the bacon to keep coming in so that they can pay off the fines, class action findings, retrofit costs, etc. Well, if they want to stay in business. What if VW figures out a reasonable way to retrofit Urea injection, does it for all impacted cars and says "Free Urea to the current owner for as long as they have the car"? It would be SUPER expensive, but could they make such a big action and start to rebuild their reputation before this shitstorm really gets rolling? I'm with a lot of you in finding this whole thing very interesting and in part have been having "what if" thought experiments about what they could maybe do to fix the fubarred situation.
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Sep 22, 2015 03:31
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They might have an out if the EPA finds other manufacturers are also cheating. 
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Sep 22, 2015 03:40
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Things are continuing to unravel for VW. http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/09/vws-dirty-mission-wheres-the-beginning-and-wheres-the-end/ quote:The situation is so problematic that German regulators are now probing Volkswagen for similar emissions fraud in its home market. And other government regulators like the Department of Health and Human Services may weigh in too, since the nitrogen oxide emissions elements involved in the findings are classified by many governments as health risks. So, let's sum up. Here are all the US agencies looking at VW. EPA Department of Health US Department of Justice Department of Commerce Also, this is relevant as well "Any EPA dictum is separate from the California Air Resources Board (CARB), which can levy its own fines." So, CARB can fine VW separate from the EPA. On top of all that, they are going to start to be investigated in their home country and you can bet Europe in general is going to follow. Any improprieties are going to be put under a microscope. Also, they were caught back in July but denied anything was wrong. They only came clean (pun intended) once the EPA threatened to put a stop sale on ALL their vehicles. quote:Right after these tests, CARB informed VW in July that its vehicles still showed excessive nitrogen oxide emissions. Volkswagen denied fault, instead laying blame on "various technical issues and unexpected in-use conditions," according to the EPA. The EPA then threatened not to certify for sale any 2016 VW cars. So in a September 3 meeting, VW admitted that it had used a second calibration in the diesels intended to run only during certification testing.
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Sep 22, 2015 03:41
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They are so hosed.
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Sep 22, 2015 04:02
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bull3964 posted:Things are continuing to unravel for VW. Why did they decide to do this can they not look 5 feet in front of them
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Sep 22, 2015 04:32
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bull3964 posted:Things are continuing to unravel for VW. VW is the biggest selling car brand in China. China has a major and public air pollution problem that is a big deal for the communist government and any measures taken to comabt the problem will have plenty of public support. Certain elements in China also find it a bit distasteful that a third of the cars on the road carry the badge of a foreign company and wouldn't be too sad to see them taken down a peg.
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Sep 22, 2015 04:46
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I've never been a fan of VW, quick what's german for shadenfruede?? 
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Sep 22, 2015 04:50
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Navistar paid $2000 per an engine in a similar case to VW's without trying to cheat the epa. http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-12-20/years-later-navistar-haunted-by-a-big-engine-blunder
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Sep 22, 2015 05:26
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