TG September Chat Thread: Back To School Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG September Chat Thread: Back To School Thread

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Helical Nightmares posted:

I haven't played Witcher 1 (played Witcher 2 almost to completion) but I am midly curious why some people don't like shades of grey stories.

He seems to be complaining that what is being presented is not actually that grey despite the game saying it is.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 05:30

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# ? May 20, 2024 15:49

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Zereth posted:

He seems to be complaining that what is being presented is not actually that grey despite the game saying it is.

It's the Bioshock Infinite thing where one side is comprised of militant white supremacists using an aerial city-fortress to intervene in foreign wars and exploiting/persecuting minorities and the other side is those very same slaves and minorities getting fed up with all that poo poo, and then suddenly WOAH MAN did you know that BOTH SIDES are actually bad and maybe the truth is in the middle hmmmm

A lot of people think they're making a great "shades of grey" story when they're actually just writing a dumb one where characters act like idiots and assholes not for compelling or interesting reasons but because "how else am I gonna show that this is a serious, mature story?"

# ? Sep 22, 2015 05:56

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

On a completely unrelated note: Apparently Drivethru's doing an R.Tal sale.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/13/R-Talsorian-Games-Inc?&src=dtrpgsaleguide

4.50 for TFOS is a loving steal, and you can get the entire Castle Falkenstein line other than that one Gurps dual-statted book for about 35 bucks.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 08:39

The Deleter: May 22, 2010

Aced my probation at work, got a HWK-290 for X-Wing on the way. Life is good.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 11:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Are there games whose primary combat system resembles that of mass combat?

That is, a lot of mass combat systems boil down each side's various combat factors into a single number, plus terrain, leadership and other modifiers, compares the two numbers into a ratio, then the die roll inflicts damage to both sides simultaneously, with the final ratio influencing the results: that is, if the force ratio is 2-to-1 in your favor, then rolling average still gives you favorable results.

To be clear, the characteristics I'm looking for are:

1. The results are inflicted simultaneously to both parties, rather than IGOUGO
2. The results are based on a differential between the two sides' relative strengths
3. Because of both 1 and 2, it's likely that even the winner will always take damage no matter what

# ? Sep 22, 2015 14:36

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Tunnels and Trolls, maybe? Combat boils down to "Add up the dice and adds from one side", add up the dice and adds from the other, roll off, winner damages the other side.

There's the added wrinkle that ranged weapons and some spells will -always- do their damage to the other side even if you lose the rolloff.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 14:47

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

gradenko_2000 posted:

I can follow everything else, but that seems like a LOT of HP. A level 2 monster would have 4 hit dice, then 20 HP per hit dice for 80 HP total?

EDIT: Also how about damage/hit?

A lot of times hp doesn't even matter because the casters will just geek the main target with a Save-or-die/suck and at that point it's basically "how many CdG attempts do you want to force?" When it does and any PC decides to go for damage, they can usually shell out a huge pile of it.

Damage I forgot, should probably be something like "the biggest HD+con score in the party" with ability scores of "whatever will let it stay up against a single ray of enfeeblement/shivering touch/etc."

# ? Sep 22, 2015 14:59

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Kai Tave posted:

It's the Bioshock Infinite thing where one side is comprised of militant white supremacists using an aerial city-fortress to intervene in foreign wars and exploiting/persecuting minorities and the other side is those very same slaves and minorities getting fed up with all that poo poo, and then suddenly WOAH MAN did you know that BOTH SIDES are actually bad and maybe the truth is in the middle hmmmm

A lot of people think they're making a great "shades of grey" story when they're actually just writing a dumb one where characters act like idiots and assholes not for compelling or interesting reasons but because "how else am I gonna show that this is a serious, mature story?"

If you played BioShock 1 and that didn't made you realize that Ken Levine is a hack and an idiot then you only have yourself to blame.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 15:01

Glorified Scrivener: May 4, 2007; His tongue it could not speak, but only flatter.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Are there games whose primary combat system resembles that of mass combat?

That is, a lot of mass combat systems boil down each side's various combat factors into a single number, plus terrain, leadership and other modifiers, compares the two numbers into a ratio, then the die roll inflicts damage to both sides simultaneously, with the final ratio influencing the results: that is, if the force ratio is 2-to-1 in your favor, then rolling average still gives you favorable results.

To be clear, the characteristics I'm looking for are:

1. The results are inflicted simultaneously to both parties, rather than IGOUGO
2. The results are based on a differential between the two sides' relative strengths
3. Because of both 1 and 2, it's likely that even the winner will always take damage no matter what

I can't think of anything that specifically hits all of your marks, but Combat Results tables were used in the fashion you're describing in a lot of game books like the Lone Wolf series. I'll second Tunnels & Trolls, and the Pacesetter games line (Cryptworld/Chill, Timemaster) might be something else to look at, while the resolution system from the TSR Marvel Superheros game might be hackable to produce the results you're interested in.

I know those are older games, but the mechanic you're describing is one more familiar to me from war games. Come to think of it, you might find a system like you're describing in a squad level miniatures war game.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 16:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Thanks for the responses.

As a follow-up, are there games (or supplements to games?) that'd let you play with mass combat right away? It seems like most such systems assume you'll be a single-person adventurer for a half-dozen levels before you leverage your earned riches into buying an army, so I was wondering if a game has ever experimented with starting you off as landed noble/force commander right off the bat.

And yes, I know there's a pall of "just play hex-and-counter wargames or miniature mans games" hanging over this, but you know, narrative

# ? Sep 22, 2015 18:01

Benly: Aug 2, 2011; 20% of the time, it works every time.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Thanks for the responses.

As a follow-up, are there games (or supplements to games?) that'd let you play with mass combat right away? It seems like most such systems assume you'll be a single-person adventurer for a half-dozen levels before you leverage your earned riches into buying an army, so I was wondering if a game has ever experimented with starting you off as landed noble/force commander right off the bat.

And yes, I know there's a pall of "just play hex-and-counter wargames or miniature mans games" hanging over this, but you know, narrative

Probably not what you're thinking of but the Hardholder and Chopper in Apocalypse World both start with combat-ready forces at their command.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 18:13

long-ass nips Diane: Dec 13, 2010; Breathe.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Thanks for the responses.

As a follow-up, are there games (or supplements to games?) that'd let you play with mass combat right away? It seems like most such systems assume you'll be a single-person adventurer for a half-dozen levels before you leverage your earned riches into buying an army, so I was wondering if a game has ever experimented with starting you off as landed noble/force commander right off the bat.

And yes, I know there's a pall of "just play hex-and-counter wargames or miniature mans games" hanging over this, but you know, narrative

GURPS, Reign (kinda), I think Pendragon.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 18:21

Glorified Scrivener: May 4, 2007; His tongue it could not speak, but only flatter.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Thanks for the responses.

As a follow-up, are there games (or supplements to games?) that'd let you play with mass combat right away? It seems like most such systems assume you'll be a single-person adventurer for a half-dozen levels before you leverage your earned riches into buying an army, so I was wondering if a game has ever experimented with starting you off as landed noble/force commander right off the bat.

Traveller: Mercenary? I didn't play in a campaign that used it, but the assumption in the rules seemed to be the pcs were the leaders from the get go. Assuming your character survived the creation process.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 18:41

Galaga Galaxian: Apr 23, 2009; What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!

You can get a small private army pretty easy even as a starting Rogue Trader crew.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 18:44

01011001: Dec 26, 2012

Bedlamdan posted:

Basically it's a group of baddies that has a nice guy who is treated as a useful idiot front and center, while the other side is less villainous in its aims but is led by a tool.

This is the case more so than any strange reductionist interpretation. On top of that, the "useful idiot" gains prominence if you actually take that path, though the organization isn't wildly better for it in the end.

Not that it matters much because both serve the main goal of reflecting how you think Geralt considers himself (human vs not, and to what degree), and because it doesn't really matter after the first game.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 18:52

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Tulpa posted:

Everyone needs a paycheck. I haven't read the novel that author bio is from, but the amazon and goodreads 1 star reviews indicate that it's probably a lot better than most licensed fic.

What FR novel is this?

Zephirum posted:

Has anyone tried to fit D&D 4E's monster design model into 3.x or Pathfinder? I've seen XP budget tables online but no codified role templates, etc.

Pathfinder Unchained includes templates and so on to do concept-first monster design, so basically what you're asking for. It's not as simple as 4e of course, but it does work fairly well.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 19:08

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Galaga Galaxian posted:

You can get a small private army pretty easy even as a starting Rogue Trader crew.

The mass combat/mass starship rules for Rogue Trader are pretty decent and are possibly the best designed ruleset in the entire game. The game would probably been a lot better on the whole if it focused more macro like that.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 19:56

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

01011001 posted:

This is the case more so than any strange reductionist interpretation. On top of that, the "useful idiot" gains prominence if you actually take that path, though the organization isn't wildly better for it in the end.

Not that it matters much because both serve the main goal of reflecting how you think Geralt considers himself (human vs not, and to what degree), and because it doesn't really matter after the first game.

Yeah. Though I think the real lesson, what with the neutral option being arguably the best is, 'don't let yourself get involved in strangers' feuds'

# ? Sep 22, 2015 20:17

fosborb: Dec 15, 2006; Chronic Good Poster

gradenko_2000 posted:

1. The results are inflicted simultaneously to both parties, rather than IGOUGO
2. The results are based on a differential between the two sides' relative strengths
3. Because of both 1 and 2, it's likely that even the winner will always take damage no matter what

Mouse Guard's argument mechanics.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 00:06

mycot: Oct 23, 2014; "It's okay. There are other Terminators! Just give us this one!"; Hell Gem

Helical Nightmares posted:

I haven't played Witcher 1 (played Witcher 2 almost to completion) but I am midly curious why some people don't like shades of grey stories. I've run into a similar situation where some players detest Dark Sun because "it's too morally ambiguous" when really it's about the choices you make in a survival situation. Yet these same people have no problem with zombie games that should technically be the same thing: a survival story.

Shades of grey stories (if not written by a moron like Dragon Age 2) are more grounded in realism and that makes a story more compelling. The Last of Us is a great example of a morally ambiguous story done well.

I don't think you're getting the point of the comment; read the first part of the sentence, then the second, and you realize that the "there is no good or evil" moral is bullshit because there totally still is.

I think a lot of people are just tired of the sort of story that has good guys with a couple of babyeaters sprinkled in fighting what are essentially "the worse guys", and has the nerve to say "yes this is a nuanced and multifaceted conflict".

mycot fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Sep 23, 2015

# ? Sep 23, 2015 02:35

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

mycot posted:

I don't think you're getting the point of the comment; read the first part of the sentence, then the second, and you realize that the "there is no good or evil" moral is bullshit because there totally still is.

Uh... um... I don't think you'd have to say "well maybe aristocracy has some good points" in order to suggest that the Russian Civil War wasn't a battle of good in the form of the Bolsheviks versus evil in the form of the Whites. Or to point out how the American Civil War, despite the massive, massive good of the destruction of slavery and the Confederacy, wasn't a case of the good Union versus the bad Confederacy either.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 02:41

Safety Biscuits: Oct 21, 2010

Arivia posted:

What FR novel is this?

The Rose of Sarifal: http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/bookwyrms/20120501 I've only read one of his books, Sugar Rain, but it was pretty good.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 02:45

orangelex44: Oct 11, 2012; Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

Possibly stupid question: Is there a thread anywhere for random gaming/comic/nerdy conventions? I know a couple of the biggies get threads in this subforum, but is there something either here or elsewhere for the dozens of more local ones (or non-tabletop-gaming ones, for that matter)?

# ? Sep 23, 2015 03:53

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

orangelex44 posted:

Possibly stupid question: Is there a thread anywhere for random gaming/comic/nerdy conventions? I know a couple of the biggies get threads in this subforum, but is there something either here or elsewhere for the dozens of more local ones (or non-tabletop-gaming ones, for that matter)?

Start one. I dunno how long it would last, but my local-local convention is coming up soon.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 03:57

Lurks With Wolves: Jan 14, 2013; At least I don't dance with them, right?

orangelex44 posted:

Possibly stupid question: Is there a thread anywhere for random gaming/comic/nerdy conventions? I know a couple of the biggies get threads in this subforum, but is there something either here or elsewhere for the dozens of more local ones (or non-tabletop-gaming ones, for that matter)?

I remember the goon who makes the Gencon threads mentioning that people keep trying to make a thread for that kind of thing but they keep dying because people just don't have that much to say about local cons. Still, it's not like having another one is going to hurt anyone, so someone may as well try making another one.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 04:52

Tulpa: Aug 8, 2014

House Louse posted:

The Rose of Sarifal: http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/bookwyrms/20120501 I've only read one of his books, Sugar Rain, but it was pretty good.

Yep, that's the one, sorry I forgot to name it.

I've only read a handful of his short stories. The Tourist is one of the better Sci Fi shorts I have read in the last couple of years, so if you want to get a taste for his writing, I recommend checking it out.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 08:52

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Game idea: A Mad Max/Death Race-style vehicle game where opposing factions race to survive. It's called "Race War."

You can have that one, you're welcome.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 11:37

Serf: May 5, 2011

FactsAreUseless posted:

Game idea: A Mad Max/Death Race-style vehicle game where opposing factions race to survive. It's called "Race War."

You can have that one, you're welcome.

So like Race Wars from The Fast and the Furious, just with murder?

# ? Sep 23, 2015 11:49

Haystack: Jan 23, 2005

Set it in a theocracy and make it a RAcing HOly WAr.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 13:12

Esser-Z: Jun 3, 2012

FactsAreUseless posted:

Game idea: A Mad Max/Death Race-style vehicle game where opposing factions race to survive. It's called "Race War."

You can have that one, you're welcome.

Isn't that called "Death Race"?

# ? Sep 23, 2015 13:14

Ningyou: Aug 14, 2005; we aaaaare
not your kind of pearls
you seem kind of pho~ny
everything's a liiiiie

we aaaare
not your kind of pearls
something in your make~up
don't see eye to e~y~e

oh oh maybe one of the factions is a bunch of suddenly unemployed weather channel reporters calling themselves "stormfront"

too subtle?

# ? Sep 23, 2015 13:52

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Road infrastructure has degraded in the post-apocalypse so it's a (pot)holey war.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 13:54

Forums Terrorist: Dec 8, 2011

e: lol

# ? Sep 23, 2015 14:22

Forums Terrorist: Dec 8, 2011

So I got the Millenium's End bundle a while back and it's sort of intrigued me despite its 90sness. Anyone else here had any experience with it?

Forums Terrorist fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Sep 23, 2015

# ? Sep 23, 2015 14:23

Davin Valkri: Apr 8, 2011; Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

Ningyou posted:

oh oh maybe one of the factions is a bunch of suddenly unemployed weather channel reporters calling themselves "stormfront"

too subtle?

Now I'm wondering whether anybody misinterprets Stormgale's name.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 15:32

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

I just got a new Elminster novel I'd missed to read and IM SO EXCITED. More Elminster yes please

Also I will check out the Rose of Sarifal at some point.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 22:56

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

so is anyone around here familiar with the war game Mobile Frame Zero(a mecha game that you use Legos to build your units out of), cause I'm tinkering with some houserule/expansion ideas and I thought that a second opinion might be a good idea

also for anyone not familiar with it, the PDF version is free; http://mobileframezero.com/mfz/

# ? Sep 24, 2015 06:18

fosborb: Dec 15, 2006; Chronic Good Poster

Yeah played it a few times. I like it better than BrikWars. Fun quick war game.

# ? Sep 24, 2015 13:20

Rockman Reserve: Oct 2, 2007; "Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

jesus christ

I got a buttload of CthulhuTech books used for dirt cheap since despite knowing some...questionable...things about the setting, the overall themes and ideas sounded rad as poo poo.

Then I opened it and started reading the actual rules.

Did....did anyone, at any point during the creation of this book, ever, actually try to roll for average or challenging tests? It's so absurdly flawed!

And they're really proud of how they plan to use this rules framework (no pun intended, ugh) for other games?!

It's so egregiously bad!

# ? Sep 24, 2015 23:12

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# ? May 20, 2024 15:49

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

Ryoshi posted:

Did....did anyone, at any point during the creation of this book, ever, actually try

Nope.

# ? Sep 24, 2015 23:18

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