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Effectronica posted:I gotta admit, the trick people pulled where they pretended to believe race is immutable, and so Kenyan integration proves Somali lack of integration can't be due to discrimination, is a good one. The Finns have a deep historical experience with Somalia and Kenya that has granted them an inherent prejudice against one of them, and a perfect ability to distinguish and discriminate among them from pure racial hatred. The Offended Brigade is really grasping at straws in this case.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:47
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steinrokkan posted:The Finns have a deep historical experience with Somalia and Kenya that has granted them an inherent prejudice against one of them, and a perfect ability to distinguish and discriminate among them from pure racial hatred. Well, I guess it wasn't a trick after all. Good God.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:49
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Effectronica posted:I gotta admit, the trick people pulled where they pretended to believe race is immutable, and so Kenyan integration proves Somali lack of integration can't be due to discrimination, is a good one. The vast majority of Finnish people literally can't distinguish between black people in regards of their origin and generally think anyone few shades darker then an Arab is a Somali. You're welcome.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:51
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VitalSigns posted:So you don't have an actual solution in mind Ligur, you're just complaining then? 
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Sep 23, 2015 21:53
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DarkCrawler posted:*mumble mumble impotent rage* Are you really using Russia as an example, considering they started the conflict in Ukraine? Just... wow. But thanks for reminding the thread that Poland and Eastern Europe is already dealing with war refugees of their own. As to your other points about Europe's duty to refugees, fine, I agree that Europe should help. However, the entire point of refugees is that it should be temporary, as most refugees want to go home again. So Europe, if it wanted to help, should be more proactive in helping end the war, help the countries housing the refugees with money. supplies, and personnel. However, what we're seeing here, as others brought up, is not 100% refugee movement, because if they were fleeing war, why would they shop around Europe? Again, if I was fleeing a war-torn hellscape, any place in Europe would be enough for me to start. Instead you have people picking the most lucrative countries because there are large numbers of economic migrants. Europe has no obligation to them, and taking in unlimited numbers of them would only weaken a fragile European economy. I just wonder where one starts to consider the moral hazard this introduces, where if you ever have a problem in your part of the world, just pack it up and go to somewhere else, because they owe you. Again, I'm all for helping refugees and ending the war and helping them rebuild Syria, but opening the doors to anyone without caution is asking for trouble. It also makes me wonder where their urge to fix up their part of the world went. When the US had it's Civil War, did they all pack up and go "screw it, going to Canada/Europe?" No, they made the mess, and they cleaned it up.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:06
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:I can't tell if this is even a serious post. He literally answered this question in the same post. Hey remember when you complained this thread is obsessed about the racism question? And I replied here: Tesseraction posted:Now with that in mind, what do you think is the current issue we should focus on (but not solely work on) with the refugee crisis at the current time? Why do you then not reply to me but reply to another conversation that's about the racism question? Especially given my question is intended to be an attempt to restart the constructive discussion this thread could have. I would actually much prefer this thread were a meaningful discussion and given that I handed out an easy segue I'd appreciate if you could help steer this thread back on track by helping me start a rail.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:10
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Griffen posted:Are you really using Russia as an example, considering they started the conflict in Ukraine? Yes, but they're also taking in refugees. It's not like UK doesn't have its hands on Iraq, or in Afghanistan, for example. Griffen posted:Just... wow. But thanks for reminding the thread that Poland and Eastern Europe is already dealing with war refugees of their own. Yes, Poland is bearing the horrible burden of 200 middle class Ukrainians. How you have not heard of this almost Atlas-like effort before in the news, I don't know. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31903681 Griffen posted:As to your other points about Europe's duty to refugees, fine, I agree that Europe should help. However, the entire point of refugees is that it should be temporary, as most refugees want to go home again. So Europe, if it wanted to help, should be more proactive in helping end the war, help the countries housing the refugees with money. supplies, and personnel. However, what we're seeing here, as others brought up, is not 100% refugee movement, because if they were fleeing war, why would they shop around Europe? Again, if I was fleeing a war-torn hellscape, any place in Europe would be enough for me to start. Instead you have people picking the most lucrative countries because there are large numbers of economic migrants. Europe has no obligation to them, and taking in unlimited numbers of them would only weaken a fragile European economy. I just wonder where one starts to consider the moral hazard this introduces, where if you ever have a problem in your part of the world, just pack it up and go to somewhere else, because they owe you. Again, I'm all for helping refugees and ending the war and helping them rebuild Syria, but opening the doors to anyone without caution is asking for trouble. quote:Most of the European countries recognize what absolute international suicides both courses would be, which is why they just voted 120,000 refugees to be relocated around the EU. Add that in to 20,000 Refugees UK will get even when they're not at our borders. And the 40,000 they agreed previously. It is also why they are focusing on trying to create more effective border mechanisms so that the economic migrants can be separated from genuine refugees. That's why they have increased Mediterranean patrolling. There are actual proposals and plans, free for everyone to read, and they look like pretty good ones to me. Maybe read my post next time instead of bypassing it as "impotent rage" there because it was 100% fact based. Griffen posted:It also makes me wonder where their urge to fix up their part of the world went. When the US had it's Civil War, did they all pack up and go "screw it, going to Canada/Europe?" No, they made the mess, and they cleaned it up. The U.S. Civil War had virtually no violent civilian casualties in the greater scheme of things, most dying from disease spread by soldiers (of whom most also died by disease) it's in no way shape or form comparable to the Syrian Civil War and the differences between the two are so varied that if you want, I would love to write some hilarious comparison between the two because the only thing similar about them are that they were fought by humans. When Europeans poo poo their bed, a lot of them packed it up and said screw it, going to America/Africa/Asia/Australia, by the way. Only they kept doing that for centuries up until the last few decades. Europe made a lot of messes and cleaned very little of them up, Syria is one of them too. As is Iraq (the way back original one, the current one is America's baby but Europe is still at least a step parent to it, including Poland). As is...well, every country in the word with loving bizarre straight borders because Europeans loved putting people who hated each other inside arbitrary lines and their descendants usually kept on hating each other. So I think if you don't know that, and if you don't know what the U.S. Civil War was like, don't go down this road. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 22:16
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Effectronica posted:Well, I guess it wasn't a trick after all. Good God. Here I thought that integrating couple thousand illiterate goat herders into modern society might be hard, especially when they have a habit of moving into groups that stop interacting with the native population as much as possible. But no, it's because finnish have innate ability to distinguish various afrikan people from each other and are racist only against some of them. But hey, there's good news from the integration front, their children have much brighter prospects and according to fairly recent study they have probably stopped sending children onto a trip back to Somali for genital mutilation and only ~50% of 18-29 year old somali women have experienced that.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:20
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Starshark posted:It doesn't take 12 years to learn to read and write, I don't give a gently caress what country you're in. lol so the only prerequisite for getting into an uni in your country is that you can read and write what kind of 3rd world shithole are you living in?
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Sep 23, 2015 22:21
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Puistokemisti posted:Here I thought that integrating couple thousand illiterate goat herders into modern society might be hard Wait, I knew the GOP primaries were awful but I didn't realise Iowa was suffering this badly??
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Sep 23, 2015 22:22
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Hogge Wild posted:lol so the only prerequisite for getting into an uni in your country is that you can read and write Counterpoint: Bob Jones University.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:24
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Hogge Wild posted:lol so the only prerequisite for getting into an uni in your country is that you can read and write Australia has five universities in the top 50 universities in the world. How's Finland doing?
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Sep 23, 2015 22:24
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Volkerball posted:It's pretty drat easy to learn a language when you're immersed in it, and not all jobs require a degree. In Denver, basically every taxi driver was an immigrant from Eritrea for some reason, and while they had noticeable accents, talking with them, they were generally getting by and happy, having only been in the US a few years. You're exaggerating how difficult it is to assimilate. if people need to learn the language to survive, they will learn the language this is not the case in most european countries there are turks in germany who have lived there since the 60s and still dont speak germany
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Sep 23, 2015 22:24
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Hogge Wild posted:there are turks in germany who have lived there since the 60s and still dont speak germany Being fair the language is 'German' or Deutsch if you're being accurate.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:25
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Hogge Wild posted:if people need to learn the language to survive, they will learn the language Yeah, Europe has plenty of ghettoes and projects of its own (at least the big countries), we just don't constantly sic firing squads on them
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Sep 23, 2015 22:26
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DarkCrawler posted:Yes, but they're also taking in refugees. Russia and Ukraine have a storied history of migration between them. Millions of Ukrainians have worked in Russia as temporary workers on an annual basis, and there's a huge established labour market for Ukrainians in there. Similarly thousands of Ukrs. have moved to other countries that also have had a large Ukr. work force since at least the fall of the USSR: Poland, the Czech republic... The Russians are also largely taking in Russian speakers, often ethnic or self-identified Russians with relatives / acquaintances already in Russia. Those who come without any connections sometimes have to go through sorting camps where they browse available housing and job opportunities, and generally have to limit themselves to unqualified jobs, because that's what the market for CIS migrant labour is 99% geared for. However, I don't think their situation is remotely similar to that of Middle Eastern refugees. In short, the situation is different because Russia was already accustomed to provide jobs and services to millions of Ukrainians and other CIS citizens on a regular basis, and there was already a huge established Ukr. community. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 22:28
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steinrokkan posted:Russia and Ukraine have a storied history of migration between them. Millions of Ukrainians have worked in Russia as temporary workers on an annual basis, and there's a huge established labour market for Ukrainians in there. Similarly thousands of Ukrs. have moved to other countries that also have had a large Ukr. work force since at least the fall of the USSR: Poland, the Czech republic... Eh, it's not really that simple, because there were already millions of Ukrainians with jobs on Russia when the crisis happened and almost a million more moved in and Russia entered a huge economic slump: https://www.opendemocracy.net/dmitry-okrest/ukrainian-refugees-in-moscow-face-uncertain-fate
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Sep 23, 2015 22:31
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DarkCrawler posted:Eh, it's not really that simple, because there were already millions of Ukrainians with jobs on Russia when the crisis happened and almost a million more moved in and Russia entered a huge economic slump: Yeah, the timing was pretty bad for the influx, and the country as a whole has been suffering economically, disposable labourers especially, but I don't think it invalidates my point that immigration to Russia from Ukraine was a much more seamless process than from the Middle East to Europe because there was an existing infrastructure, however strained it became due to general economic depression.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:36
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DarkCrawler posted:The vast majority of Finnish people literally can't distinguish between black people in regards of their origin and generally think anyone few shades darker then an Arab is a Somali. You're welcome. The vast majority of Americans are unable to determine whether someone is African-American or an African immigrant (and there'd be plenty of difficulty identifying someone who was Black West Indian) but there are still significant differences in socioeconomic status between the two groups. Similarly, the "model minority" status of Chinese-Americans and Japanese-Americans isn't conferred on Hmong-Americans. Puistokemisti posted:Here I thought that integrating couple thousand illiterate goat herders into modern society might be hard, especially when they have a habit of moving into groups that stop interacting with the native population as much as possible. But no, it's because finnish have innate ability to distinguish various afrikan people from each other and are racist only against some of them. I certainly can't imagine how someone could think Somalis could be discriminated against in Finland after reading a post like this.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:40
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steinrokkan posted:Yeah, the timing was pretty bad for the influx, and the country as a whole has been suffering economically, disposable labourers especially, but I don't think it invalidates my point that immigration to Russia from Ukraine was a much more seamless process than from the Middle East to Europe because there was an existing infrastructure, however strained it became due to general economic depression. Yes, and they used to be the same country 25 years ago. But it is still a million refugees on top of millions of more foreign citizens, and they are still paying for them and they are far poorer, far less populous and more unstable then the European Union. It is another country at least keeping its mess contained while the shitstorm U.S. and Europe started...well most recently in 2003 is burning and catching everything around it on fire. We have really not seen much fallout from the Ukrainian Civil War at all touch us except for economic push-backs, but nothing compared to Russia, again and we chose it ourselves (not that Russia doesn't deserve sanctions). Effectronica posted:The vast majority of Americans are unable to determine whether someone is African-American or an African immigrant (and there'd be plenty of difficulty identifying someone who was Black West Indian) but there are still significant differences in socioeconomic status between the two groups. Similarly, the "model minority" status of Chinese-Americans and Japanese-Americans isn't conferred on Hmong-Americans. Yeaaah, Americans have a bit more decades on us in this. All of these people came here in the 90's and were speaking about like...40-50,000 people in total? Like with their descendants included. Where there is prejudice it hasn't progressed past the "his skin is different color then mine" point. You should hear what we think about Russians and Estonians and Swedes though. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 22:43
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The nice thing about America is that we're proud of being racist, instead of being crypto-racist human rights crusaders like Europeans. Better the devil you know.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:53
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Effectronica posted:The vast majority of Americans are unable to determine whether someone is African-American or an African immigrant (and there'd be plenty of difficulty identifying someone who was Black West Indian) but there are still significant differences in socioeconomic status between the two groups. Similarly, the "model minority" status of Chinese-Americans and Japanese-Americans isn't conferred on Hmong-Americans. So in the US there've been decades of racial politics that led to differentiated treatment of different minorities, and saying that people "can't determine" who's who seems disingenuous, while technically true from a specific standpoint. Finland (AFAIK) and Eastern Europe in general doesn't have this experience in the case that you are talking about (of African immigration specifically) as it's a recent phenomenon with the difference occurring among concurrently introduced groups with no previous exposure. E: Yeah, as DarkCrawler said, people in this area are more likely to have very nuanced and numerous racist attitudes towards other white people than towards some strangers from two "obscure", far away countries¨(that is to say, if they are going to be racist against black people, it sure as hell doesn't matter if they are from Nigeria or Uganda). Because their formative experience with the "others" is fundamentally different than that of Americans. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 22:55
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It doesn't matter in terms of the arguments put forward, but where is DarkCrawler living at the moment? Just because it's been alluded to and I've missed the post that specifies it.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:59
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Tesseraction posted:It doesn't matter in terms of the arguments put forward, but where is DarkCrawler living at the moment? Just because it's been alluded to and I've missed the post that specifies it. Finland.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:02
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steinrokkan posted:So in the US there've been decades of racial politics that led to differentiated treatment of different minorities, and saying that people "can't determine" who's who seems disingenuous, while technically true from a specific standpoint. Finland (AFAIK) and Eastern Europe in general doesn't have this experience in the case that you are talking about (of African immigration specifically) as it's a recent phenomenon with the difference occurring among concurrently introduced groups with no previous exposure. Okay, let me explain this very carefully to you. Just because you have a racial group, doesn't mean that that racial group is deterministic for all groups within its umbrella, because there are a variety of factors at work beyond whether Finns merely shriek and cross the street at the sight of a nonwhite, or actually have to be restrained by police officers, when it comes to race and ethnicity. Given the bald prejudice against Somalis specifically on display from various Finnish posters, there's actually plenty of room to suggest that a lot of the disparity is probably due to discrimination above the other factors people like to point to.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:03
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DarkCrawler posted:Finland. It's amusing to see a Finnish poster play the "Muh Land" card, when modern-day Finns are asiatic Mongols who displaced the caucasian Sami.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:06
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Narciss posted:It's amusing to see a Finnish poster play the "Muh Land" card, when modern-day Finns are asiatic Mongols who displaced the caucasian Sami. This is a dumb non-statement because it applies to, well, basically everyone for one group or another depending on how far back you go.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:11
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Effectronica posted:Okay, let me explain this very carefully to you. Just because you have a racial group, doesn't mean that that racial group is deterministic for all groups within its umbrella, because there are a variety of factors at work beyond whether Finns merely shriek and cross the street at the sight of a nonwhite, or actually have to be restrained by police officers, when it comes to race and ethnicity. Given the bald prejudice against Somalis specifically on display from various Finnish posters, there's actually plenty of room to suggest that a lot of the disparity is probably due to discrimination above the other factors people like to point to. OK, I'll leave it up to the Finnish posters to determine if this anti-Somali hysteria that is leaving other migrant groups unscathed is happening because honestly I haven't been hearing about it, here or elsewhere.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:12
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steinrokkan posted:OK, I'll leave it up to the Finnish posters to determine if this anti-Somali hysteria that is leaving other migrant groups unscathed is happening because honestly I haven't been hearing about it, here or elsewhere. Glib remarks don't work when they reveal you're downright pig-ignorant. I mean, Jesus Christ, do you think that all racial discrimination consists of KKK members burning people alive? Have we uncovered the root reason why Europeans believe they have a fundamentally different approach to race than Americans?
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Sep 23, 2015 23:14
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Effectronica posted:Glib remarks don't work when they reveal you're downright pig-ignorant. I mean, Jesus Christ, do you think that all racial discrimination consists of KKK members burning people alive? Have we uncovered the root reason why Europeans believe they have a fundamentally different approach to race than Americans? Don't write your posts in a patronizing tone if you don't want dismissive answers. Also your Sociology 101 posturing is nice, but it's pointless without any empirical backing.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:16
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steinrokkan posted:Don't write your posts in a patronizing tone if you don't want dismissive answers. Instead of posting about posters under the guise of responding to the statements that are made, how about just not posting at all?
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Sep 23, 2015 23:19
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Tesseraction posted:Why do you then not reply to me but reply to another conversation that's about the racism question? Especially given my question is intended to be an attempt to restart the constructive discussion this thread could have. I would actually much prefer this thread were a meaningful discussion and given that I handed out an easy segue I'd appreciate if you could help steer this thread back on track by helping me start a rail. Because me and you fundamentally disagree about how to approach a problem like this from a very high level. I say solve, or at least put a plan in place to solve these problems before we start hulling in people. You (I think) are of the opinion that as a humanitarian crisis, we owe it to them to find them a home, and then solve the problems later. I do think you argue in good faith though so instead of us spinning our wheels about how to even approach step one, I just let it be. I don't necessarily think you are definitively wrong, I just disagree with the approach. Starshark however argues in bad faith and is just creating noise.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:27
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Effectronica posted:Glib remarks don't work when they reveal you're downright pig-ignorant. I mean, Jesus Christ, do you think that all racial discrimination consists of KKK members burning people alive? Have we uncovered the root reason why Europeans believe they have a fundamentally different approach to race than Americans? How do you think people choose a target of discrimination? The neighborhood I live in near Chicago is really mixed race (and nationality), and gently caress me if I could even begin to tell you at a glance whether one white guy is Irish or Polish, if one black woman is descended from Niger or is straight over from Botswana, or the tan guy walking down the block had parents from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico. How the hell can I know any of that just by looking at someone? So what gift of racism is it that Finns apparently have that we in the US lack that lets them distinguish at a glance a family from Ethiopia or Somalia? Cause that ability sounds like straight up magic to me.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:28
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Because me and you fundamentally disagree about how to approach a problem like this from a very high level. I say solve, or at least put a plan in place to solve these problems before we start hulling in people. You (I think) are of the opinion that as a humanitarian crisis, we owe it to them to find them a home, and then solve the problems later. I do think you argue in good faith though so instead of us spinning our wheels about how to even approach step one, I just let it be. I don't necessarily think you are definitively wrong, I just disagree with the approach. "Can you guys try not to starve to death so quickly, we really need to have a plan in place that will please Canine Blues Arooo before we start letting you in." quote:Starshark however argues in bad faith and is just creating noise. LOL I'd love to know what a bad faith argument to you is.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:30
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PaleIrishGuy posted:How do you think people choose a target of discrimination? The neighborhood I live in near Chicago is really mixed race (and nationality), and gently caress me if I could even begin to tell you at a glance whether one white guy is Irish or Polish, if one black woman is descended from Niger or is straight over from Botswana, or the tan guy walking down the block had parents from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico. How the hell can I know any of that just by looking at someone? So what gift of racism is it that Finns apparently have that we in the US lack that lets them distinguish at a glance a family from Ethiopia or Somalia? Cause that ability sounds like straight up magic to me. Uh, racism is more than just how a guy looks. Jews were kept from getting jobs in America in the 1940's not based on how they looked, but on their last names.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:31
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PaleIrishGuy posted:How do you think people choose a target of discrimination? The neighborhood I live in near Chicago is really mixed race (and nationality), and gently caress me if I could even begin to tell you at a glance whether one white guy is Irish or Polish, if one black woman is descended from Niger or is straight over from Botswana, or the tan guy walking down the block had parents from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico. How the hell can I know any of that just by looking at someone? So what gift of racism is it that Finns apparently have that we in the US lack that lets them distinguish at a glance a family from Ethiopia or Somalia? Cause that ability sounds like straight up magic to me. I think he's saying the different levels of discrimination faced by these groups are present on an institutional rather than casual individual level. That they may not stick out on sight, but would face different obstacles when trying to achieve something and identifying themselves. Which is a valid concern, but I'm not sure if it's as prominent as he makes it out to be, in this specific scenario. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 23:32
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PaleIrishGuy posted:How do you think people choose a target of discrimination? The neighborhood I live in near Chicago is really mixed race (and nationality), and gently caress me if I could even begin to tell you at a glance whether one white guy is Irish or Polish, if one black woman is descended from Niger or is straight over from Botswana, or the tan guy walking down the block had parents from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico. How the hell can I know any of that just by looking at someone? So what gift of racism is it that Finns apparently have that we in the US lack that lets them distinguish at a glance a family from Ethiopia or Somalia? Cause that ability sounds like straight up magic to me. Okay, I translated the post I was going to write into Simple English, for your benefit. quote:judgement does not form one and only of people coming to a decision, "I am going to see as different today!" A greatly sized part of judgement comes to mind at a higher level, such as with our lovely Finnish posters making bright happy stories causing laughs about very young person soldiers and FGM. That is, it is what you would name "to do with structure give importance to divisions". So even though Finns are apparently unable to come to a decision about whether someone is Somali or merely a japanese one making a journey for pleasure given three comes before the law, questions before a judge,, they still can see as different on person base by giving on these sees nothing new about. I guess you could read the original too, if you like: quote:Discrimination does not consist solely of people deciding, "I am going to discriminate today!" A large part of discrimination occurs at a higher level, such as with our lovely Finnish posters making hilarious jokes about child soldiers and FGM. That is, it's what you'd call "structural racism". So even though Finns are apparently unable to determine whether someone is Somali or merely a Japanese tourist given three tries, they still can discriminate on national basis by transmitting these stereotypes.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:33
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PaleIrishGuy posted:How do you think people choose a target of discrimination? The neighborhood I live in near Chicago is really mixed race (and nationality), and gently caress me if I could even begin to tell you at a glance whether one white guy is Irish or Polish, if one black woman is descended from Niger or is straight over from Botswana, or the tan guy walking down the block had parents from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico. How the hell can I know any of that just by looking at someone? So what gift of racism is it that Finns apparently have that we in the US lack that lets them distinguish at a glance a family from Ethiopia or Somalia? Cause that ability sounds like straight up magic to me. I wouldn't expect real world examples to work with a shutin (Effectronica) who spends all day posting on the internet. "Anyone should be able to tell the difference between different groups of people, it's really easy on Google Images!" In this case, he seems convinced that if there are differences between two groups of people, it must be due to discrimination because nothing else could lead to Chinese Americans being "better" than Hmong Americans. Everything is because of discrimination, probably by evil white people. Not the fact that Chinese Americans mostly came to America through a visa system that selects on skill whereas Hmong Americans came in as refugees. Same for Somalians vs. Kenyans etc. in Finland. Of course there is going to be a huge difference between the groups when Somalians coming in get in because Somalia is dangerous whereas Kenyans have to get a visa through education, marriage or employment.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:44
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Starshark posted:Uh, racism is more than just how a guy looks. Jews were kept from getting jobs in America in the 1940's not based on how they looked, but on their last names. I'll bite. Without googling, please pick the Somali name from the following list of Ethopians (just so we know that this discrimination is that easy): Ephraim Isaac Mahmoud Ahmed Gelila Bekele Anna Getaneh Hanan Ibrahim Haddis Alemayehu Alexander Boghossian Effectronica posted:Discrimination does not consist solely of people deciding, "I am going to discriminate today!" A large part of discrimination occurs at a higher level, such as with our lovely Finnish posters making hilarious jokes about child soldiers and FGM. That is, it's what you'd call "structural racism". So even though Finns are apparently unable to determine whether someone is Somali or merely a Japanese tourist given three tries, they still can discriminate on national basis by transmitting these stereotypes. You are correct in that there is definite stereotyping going on, especially with regard to perceptions of regional practice (eg. the goat-herder thing), but that isn't somehow unique to Finland or Europe as a whole, nor is it terribly different from the US or anywhere else. It can be taken as a given that that sort of racism most definitely exists, but for the given numbers of Ethiopians employed in Finland vs the Somalians in the same, there would need to be some major identifiable barrier erected specifically against Somalians that is not there for Ethiopians. What is that barrier? 'Lol racism' isn't enough if the average individual can't pick people apart, since the average individual's casual racism is one of the primary barriers to integration. Beyond that, you get into the question of systemic barriers like preferring employees of one given nationality over another, but that would balance out when the children of those immigrants are now reporting as Finnish (or German, French, Polish, etc), because the barrier of reported nationality falls away, bringing things back to casual racism. If there remains a disparity between 2nd generation Finns of Somalian decent and those of Ethiopia, it would seem to indicate a barrier to employment and integration beyond simply 'they're racist.'
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Sep 24, 2015 00:02
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Narciss posted:It's amusing to see a Finnish poster play the "Muh Land" card, when modern-day Finns are asiatic Mongols who displaced the caucasian Sami. lol
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Sep 24, 2015 00:06
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