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Chuck N. Awe posted:They want to go to Finland for some reason so we let them. That's all there is to it. A couple of hundred immigrants is a very small amount by Swedish standards. Whatever they choose to do, it won't affect us much, and it won't affect Finland much either. The current estimate is 30 000 escaping the horrors of Sweden unless the re-established border control starts holding off the tide. That isn't a couple of hundred? That amount would cost us half a billion € a year. We're in deep recession and cutting everywhere, we can't afford that. We don't have jobs (there's like 300 applications for every store clerk position open) and in much worse shape economically than Sweden. We already have 400k unemployed of our own. In addition to that, "asylum seekers" don't want to stay where there are empty apartments, but demand to live in big urban centers like Helsinki-metropolitan area where there is already a horrible shortage of housing. Yeah I know the response is "lol then u build mores housing for refagees!!1" which is fine but it's, just, uhh, we don't have the money. Hey, Sweden wanted these people here. Do your part of the Dublin agreement, and register the people, like it says in the agreement. Like Denmark, Germany, Austria and so on should have done before you.
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Sep 23, 2015 12:34
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Scherloch posted:Strange, thread got bumped, but I see nothing of note here. Weird. It happened again 
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Sep 23, 2015 12:37
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Ligur posted:The current estimate is 30 000 escaping the horrors of Sweden unless the re-established border control starts holding off the tide. That isn't a couple of hundred? That amount would cost us half a billion € a year. We're in deep recession and cutting everywhere, we can't afford that. We don't have jobs (there's like 300 applications for every store clerk position open) and in much worse shape economically than Sweden. We already have 400k unemployed of our own. In addition to that, "asylum seekers" don't want to stay where there are empty apartments, but demand to live in big urban centers like Helsinki-metropolitan area where there is already a horrible shortage of housing. Yeah I know the response is "lol then u build mores housing for refagees!!1" which is fine but it's, just, uhh, we don't have the money. Nonsense. Finland is one of the most prosperous and well-run countries on earth and if you think otherwise you have probaly never been outside of Finland. Your recession is temporary and you will no doubt bounce back,. Sweden has accepted way more than 30 000 in the past and as you say, our economy is still better than yours.
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Sep 23, 2015 12:39
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Chuck N. Awe posted:Nonsense. Finland is one of the most prosperous and well-run countries on earth and if you think otherwise you have probaly never been outside of Finland. Your recession is temporary and you will no doubt bounce back,. Sweden has accepted way more than 30 000 in the past and as you say, our economy is still better than yours. You might not know what you are talking about. Our recession has lasted 8 years this far, and our growth is the second worse in the EU (only Malta is doing worse). Even the Greek economy is growing faster. Most of the asylum seekers we receive are from Iraq or Somalia. Guess what their employment percentages are? Our country was well run somewhere in the past, yes, but that hasn't been the case for a good decade. I have also probaly been outside of Fineland.
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Sep 23, 2015 12:47
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Ligur posted:Do your part of the Dublin agreement, and register the people, like it says in the agreement. Like Denmark, Germany, Austria and so on should have done before you.
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Sep 23, 2015 12:55
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Well the Dublin Agreement is dead regardless. 
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Sep 23, 2015 13:03
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Ligur posted:Most of the asylum seekers we receive are from Iraq or Somalia. Guess what their employment percentages are? 13,1% and 13,2% respectively. Surely due to racism and not the lack of applicable skills or the reluctance to gain them. Meanwhile Kenyans and Ethiopians are at 60+%, beating even the natives.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:13
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Chuck N. Awe posted:They want to go to Finland for some reason so we let them. That's all there is to it. A couple of hundred immigrants is a very small amount by Swedish standards. Whatever they choose to do, it won't affect us much, and it won't affect Finland much either. That's up for the Finns to decide, not Sweden, or Germany, or any other country or organization for that matter. Double Bill posted:13,1% and 13,2% respectively. Surely due to racism and not the lack of applicable skills or the reluctance to gain them. The same pattern can be found in every country in Europe, including Sweden. So are they all racist? I wouldn't use that word myself, it's more the fact that people are mistrustful and cautious of people with different cultural, ethnic and religious backgrounds. But that begs the question why the gently caress do some countries like Germany and Sweden keep upping the immigration numbers? I'm all for helping refugees who are actually fleeing from war, but they are the very clear minority in the recent waves of people who have hit Europe from North-Africa and the Middle-East and some parts of Asia.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:40
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OhYeah posted:
lol
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Sep 23, 2015 16:45
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You could have just written racist OhYeah.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:51
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I'm sorry but do you see everyone in Europe singing L'internationale with tears in their eyes or do you see right-wing parties carrying momentum and the immigration and refugee crisis being the most devisive issue of the last few decades? Nothing is threatening the European unity more than this. You guys have your heads stuck up so far your asses that it just boggles my mind.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:34
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OhYeah posted:I'm sorry but do you see everyone in Europe singing L'internationale with tears in their eyes or do you see right-wing parties carrying momentum and the immigration and refugee crisis being the most devisive issue of the last few decades? Nothing is threatening the European unity more than this. You guys have your heads stuck up so far your asses that it just boggles my mind. Tell me what the difference is between racism and "mistrustful and cautious of people with different cultural, ethnic and religious backgrounds." 
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Sep 23, 2015 18:37
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OhYeah posted:That's up for the Finns to decide, not Sweden, or Germany, or any other country or organization for that matter.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:59
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Please, there won't be an European Union for long at the rate things are going.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:29
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They're not racists, just xenophobic bigots jeez!
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Sep 23, 2015 19:41
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Starshark posted:Tell me what the difference is between racism and "mistrustful and cautious of people with different cultural, ethnic and religious backgrounds." One is xenophobia, the other is racism. Literally the second search result which sums it up in a concise way, although I bet there are people who wouldn't agree on all the salient points: http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-and-human-sciences/themes/international-migration/glossary/xenophobia/ I think the last argument in this thread came to an abrupt end when a lot of links were posted where it is explained that xenophobia is a natural and very basic response to a changing environment. Forcing people to overcome their xenophobia with sociopolitical engineering will not yield the desired results. TheFluff posted:hey have you heard of the european union, you know the thing you give up a lot of decision making power to when you join? The way European Union, with Germany's "brave" lead has handled the refugee crisis has diminished people's trust in it, which is a very bad thing for everyone involved, especially the smaller countries in Eastern Europe. The only people who are jumping from joy are the Russians.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:25
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Oh, poo poo, they're not racist they're xenophobic! Why didn't you say so, son? I've got all the time in the world for xenophobes. quote:Forcing people to overcome their xenophobia with sociopolitical engineering will not yield the desired results. They say the same thing about racists. Guess we just have to give in to them!
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Sep 23, 2015 22:51
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OhYeah posted:One is xenophobia, the other is racism. Literally the second search result which sums it up in a concise way, although I bet there are people who wouldn't agree on all the salient points: http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-and-human-sciences/themes/international-migration/glossary/xenophobia/ Can you meaningfully explain the difference between xenophobia and racism in a way that illustrates why xenophobia is cool and good, but racism is bad? If not, just cut the weasel wordy bullshit and admit that you agree that Europe is increasingly racist, but you don't think it's inherently bad.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:00
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Starshark posted:Oh, poo poo, they're not racist they're xenophobic! Why didn't you say so, son? I've got all the time in the world for xenophobes. I know that any kind of nuance and subtlety is lost on a lot of posters in this thread, even when speaking about neutral subject such as behavioral sciences and anthropology. Maybe it's because you are surrounded by constant grenade explosions and riots and the fear of being bombarded by molotov cocktails. In all seriousness, though, I find it extremely odd that islamophobia is the source of all problems regarding integration of immigrants into Western society. Which I assume you are trying to do, right? "I think that's what makes many Swedes jealous of immigrant groups. You have a culture, an identity, a history, something that brings you together. And what do we have? We have Midsummer's Eve and such silly things." "The White Majority is the Problem." "If two equally qualified persons apply for a job at a workplace with few immigrants, the one called Mohammed should get the job." "The Swedes must be integrated into the new Sweden , the old Sweden will not return." Oh... Said in this voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOiE0LCu6J0 Kajeesus posted:Can you meaningfully explain the difference between xenophobia and racism in a way that illustrates why xenophobia is cool and good, but racism is bad? If not, just cut the weasel wordy bullshit and admit that you agree that Europe is increasingly racist, but you don't think it's inherently bad. Xenophobia keeps you away from a situation where you suddenly discover you are an ethnic minority in your own country, like Sweden in a few decades, if the current trends keep up. If you argue that it doesn't matter or it's even desirable, then we are in a disagreement. I know that's not allowed in Sweden - to have a "dissenting opinion" that is - but I'm not in Sweden. Racism starts wars. See, not quite the same.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:18
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The xenophobia vs. racism debate is exactly the same as the ephebophilia vs. pedophile debate. Basically, it's people trying to make themselves seem less lovely by hiding behind strict definitions.
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Sep 24, 2015 01:36
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OhYeah posted:Xenophobia keeps you away from a situation where you suddenly discover you are an ethnic minority in your own country, like Sweden in a few decades, if the current trends keep up. If you argue that it doesn't matter or it's even desirable, then we are in a disagreement. I know that's not allowed in Sweden - to have a "dissenting opinion" that is - but I'm not in Sweden. Good to know the US hasn't been racist in 150 years.
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Sep 24, 2015 01:44
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Xoidanor posted:Please, there won't be an European Union for long at the rate things are going. Good.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:15
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Scherloch posted:The xenophobia vs. racism debate is exactly the same as the ephebophilia vs. pedophile debate. Basically, it's people trying to make themselves seem less lovely by hiding behind strict definitions. I mean, people are right that it's mostly xenophobia and islamophobia, since Arabs are whites just like the rest of us here in Europe. That said, it's not a useful distinction to make. Being a xenophobe is just as reprehensible as being a racist. And these xenophobes are often also racists against the non-white African immigrants.
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Sep 24, 2015 11:57
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OhYeah posted:Xenophobia keeps you away from a situation where you suddenly discover you are an ethnic minority in your own country, like Sweden in a few decades, if the current trends keep up. If you argue that it doesn't matter or it's even desirable, then we are in a disagreement. I know that's not allowed in Sweden - to have a "dissenting opinion" that is - but I'm not in Sweden. You're not answering the question; you're just reiterating that xenophobia is good and racism is bad and then going off on a tangent about political correctness. What's the difference between xenophobia and racism? Why doesn't xenophobia start wars, or racism prevent you from becoming an ethnic minority?
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Sep 24, 2015 13:04
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Kajeesus posted:You're not answering the question; you're just reiterating that xenophobia is good and racism is bad and then going off on a tangent about political correctness. What's the difference between xenophobia and racism? Why doesn't xenophobia start wars, or racism prevent you from becoming an ethnic minority? I haven't really said that I find xenophobia positive, I've just said it is a natural, predictable, understandable and easily explainable response to a changing environment or circumstances. Xenophobia is about survival and keeping the unknown out or at bay (in a nutshell), racism is about forcing your will upon a group of people who you consider inferior or outright dangerous to your continued existence in some regard. Example: people in Eastern Europe are generally xenophobic. They are afraid of the disruptions that a large number of immigrants from different parts of the world might bring to their mostly stable lifestyle. "Diversity" is not seen as an unconditionally positive trait of a modern society and it is not found desirable and thus not pursued. Most people are content to voice their opinion, either by contacting their representatives, or the media, or voicing support for people who have a clear stance again immigration. This is xenophobia. And then there is a single guy who sets fire to a refugee centre during the night. This is racism. If you think that having a strong opinion and not being afraid to say it and committing a violent crime are more or less the same thing, then it is prime time for you to move out of Sweden and into a actual free country. computer parts posted:Good to know the US hasn't been racist in 150 years. What motivates a global superpower like United States is something different entirely.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:19
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OhYeah posted:What motivates a global superpower like United States is something different entirely. Good to know the US wasn't racist from 1865-1935.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:21
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OhYeah posted:I haven't really said that I find xenophobia positive, I've just said it is a natural, predictable, understandable and easily explainable response to a changing environment or circumstances. Xenophobia is about survival and keeping the unknown out or at bay (in a nutshell), racism is about forcing your will upon a group of people who you consider inferior or outright dangerous to your continued existence in some regard. So, xenophobia is when you distrust people because they're different from you, and racism is taking violent action against people who are different from you? Is that the difference? It's only racism if it's a violent crime?
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Sep 24, 2015 13:29
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Racism is bad, and I don't like bad things. I like my friends, but they seem very racist. But if they're racists, they're bad and I can't like them. Ergo, they cannot be racists. OhYeah posted:What motivates a global superpower like United States is something different entirely. Racism within American society is an outgrowth of its global hegemony 
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Sep 24, 2015 13:32
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Let me just say that this thread is really lacking in subtlety and nuance with regards to the whole refugee discussion. However, it's clear that the ethnical swedish population is going the way of the
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Sep 24, 2015 14:31
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No no, guys, guys, I'm not a racist, I'm a supremacist. And besides, race in Gobineau's definition doesn't actually exist and the meaning of the term hasn't evolved since the late 19th century.
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Sep 24, 2015 15:16
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Kajeesus posted:So, xenophobia is when you distrust people because they're different from you, and racism is taking violent action against people who are different from you? Is that the difference? It's only racism if it's a violent crime? What's the point of all the anti-racist campaigns? To stop people from harassing one group of people based on their ethnicity. It can take many forms, from physical violence to lack of jobs that are available for that group of people. Which brings me to the point... Isn't Mona Sahlin's idea incredibly racist? "If two equally qualified persons apply for a job at a workplace with few immigrants, the one called Mohammed should get the job." I understand the concept of positive discrimination, but it's discrimination nonetheless, right? By the way, I've heard a couple of businessmen say that it's pretty much pointless to do business in Nordic countries, because their prejudices against anyone from Eastern Europe are so strong that any meaningful partnership is out of the question. If you are from EE, you are a dirty vodka-soaked thief. How's that for racism, by friends. In any case, Germany and Sweden are loving up in such grandiose fashion that no country in Eastern Europe will ever accept a meaningful number of either economic migrants or refugees. A few examples, and you can imagine in what spirit those news are read and discussed here: People evicted to make room for refugees: http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article146825325/Fuer-Fluechtlinge-gekuendigt-Das-war-wie-ein-Tritt.html Refugees complaining about things that are provided for them for free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNh-d9INiI Luxury properties to be seized and used for refugee housing: http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article205756199/Bezirk-will-Luxuswohnungen-fuer-Fluechtlinge-beschlagnahmen.html And so on. I grew up in a poor environment, in Soviet Union. I was raised to be grateful for anything that was provided for free and to never demand anything or take it for granted. I guess those people don't come from too bad circumstances if their first instict on arrival is not to be grateful that they have a roof over their heads (indefinitely, for free) but to start bitching about how the walk to the shop takes 30 minutes. I'm eagerly waiting to hear the excuses and how I'm being a racist for not understanding their pain and suffering for being forced to take a longer walk to the shop. Revelation 2-13 posted:However, it's clear that the ethnical swedish population is going the way of the Not in a few months, but in roughly two decades. It is happening.
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Sep 24, 2015 20:50
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OhYeah posted:I haven't really said that I find xenophobia positive, I've just said it is a natural, predictable, understandable and easily explainable response to a changing environment or circumstances. Xenophobia is about survival and keeping the unknown out or at bay (in a nutshell), racism is about forcing your will upon a group of people who you consider inferior or outright dangerous to your continued existence in some regard. I like how you're just making up your own definitions as you go. In broad strokes, xenophobia is fear or hatred of the unfamiliar. Racism is (broadly speaking, as it has like a billion different definitions) believing that one race is better than another/all the others. Violence doesn't really play into it, despite what you seem to think. And given how fond you (and others here) seem to be of the idea that Muslims just can't work in our societies for *reasons*, you definitely fit the definition of a racist. Also, the Eastern European xenophobia you're referring to is seen as straight up racism by most of the rest of the world, and rightly so. Scherloch fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 20:56
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OhYeah posted:What's the point of all the anti-racist campaigns? To stop people from harassing one group of people based on their ethnicity. It can take many forms, from physical violence to lack of jobs that are available for that group of people. Which brings me to the point... Isn't Mona Sahlin's idea incredibly racist? I'm not asking for your point of view on immigration. I'm asking you how your definition of xenophobia differs from your definition of racism. I even provided a helpful yes/no question to allow you to clarify in a straightforward manner. Are you capable of having a conversation without segueing into a tirade about immigrants and then getting defensive about inevitable accusations of racism?
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Sep 24, 2015 21:02
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I'm seriously starting to wonder if it's just a Ligur parachute trying to get around people's ignore lists.
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Sep 24, 2015 21:32
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Joke's on him, my ignore list has infinite room for more... immigrants?  Although much like Hungary's border fence, some tend to escape from time to time.
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Sep 24, 2015 21:36
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Scherloch posted:I like how you're just making up your own definitions as you go. In broad strokes, xenophobia is fear or hatred of the unfamiliar. Racism is (broadly speaking, as it has like a billion different definitions) believing that one race is better than another/all the others. Violence doesn't really play into it, despite what you seem to think. And given how fond you (and others here) seem to be of the idea that Muslims just can't work in our societies for *reasons*, you definitely fit the definition of a racist. I like how you acknowledge that there are a billion definitions of xenophobia and racism out there but somehow mine isn't good enough. Your "broadly speaking" explanation is too simple for me, because I don't care what people *think*, I care how people *act*. It's okay to be homophobic, hate any kind of religion with a passion, or dislike a specific nation or an ethnicity. I don't give a gently caress, because I'm not easily offended by *opinions*. It's when opinions turn into actions I get very worried. When you go out hunting gays with a crossbow, setting fires to churches or having massive bloody clashes on the streets between two rivalling ethnicities (like the Kurds and Turks in Stockholm last week), things change from "everyone is entitled to their opinion" to "holy gently caress, someone is going to get hurt". By the way, I also hate to break it to you, but Islam is a religion, not region on Earth or an ethnicity. I'm not sure how you can be racist towards a religion. Kajeesus posted:I'm not asking for your point of view on immigration. I'm asking you how your definition of xenophobia differs from your definition of racism. I even provided a helpful yes/no question to allow you to clarify in a straightforward manner. "Xenophobia is about survival and keeping the unknown out or at bay (in a nutshell), racism is about forcing your will upon a group of people who you consider inferior or outright dangerous to your continued existence in some regard." Kajeesus posted:So, xenophobia is when you distrust people because they're different from you, and racism is taking violent action against people who are different from you? Is that the difference? It's only racism if it's a violent crime? Yes. No, there are loads of non-violent actions that a person can take that can be classified as racist. SplitSoul posted:I'm seriously starting to wonder if it's just a Ligur parachute trying to get around people's ignore lists. Because there are only two people in the world who don't agree with your ideas on immigration.
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Sep 24, 2015 22:36
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OhYeah posted:I understand the concept of positive discrimination, but it's discrimination nonetheless, right? By the way, I've heard a couple of businessmen say that it's pretty much pointless to do business in Nordic countries, because their prejudices against anyone from Eastern Europe are so strong that any meaningful partnership is out of the question. If you are from EE, you are a dirty vodka-soaked thief. How's that for racism, by friends.
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Sep 24, 2015 22:44
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OhYeah posted:Because there are only two people in the world who don't agree with your ideas on immigration. If only. I guess I just see a similar pattern in your arguments, but maybe I'm just ableist.
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Sep 24, 2015 22:58
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OhYeah posted:"Xenophobia is about survival and keeping the unknown out or at bay (in a nutshell), racism is about forcing your will upon a group of people who you consider inferior or outright dangerous to your continued existence in some regard." So a xenophone ensures their own survival by keeping a nebulous unknown at bay, while a racist forces his will on a group of people they consider dangerous to their continued existence? I'm sorry, the distinction really isn't clear to me. Is it the active component that makes it racism? Is it the targeting of a specific group, rather than anyone who's different?
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Sep 24, 2015 22:59
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OhYeah posted:I like how you acknowledge that there are a billion definitions of xenophobia and racism out there but somehow mine isn't good enough. Your "broadly speaking" explanation is too simple for me, because I don't care what people *think*, I care how people *act*. It's okay to be homophobic, hate any kind of religion with a passion, or dislike a specific nation or an ethnicity. I don't give a gently caress, because I'm not easily offended by *opinions*. It's when opinions turn into actions I get very worried. When you go out hunting gays with a crossbow, setting fires to churches or having massive bloody clashes on the streets between two rivalling ethnicities (like the Kurds and Turks in Stockholm last week), things change from "everyone is entitled to their opinion" to "holy gently caress, someone is going to get hurt". The thing is, there's a pretty big overlap between xenophobia and racism. When your xenophobia is directed at Muslims, based on the idea that they unable to fit into our socities, you're well within that area of overlap, and I am thus justified in calling you a racist (you can pretend that I wrote "cultural" in front if it makes you feel better). And tough poo poo if it's to simple for you, that's not really my problem. I hate to break it to you, but your opinions on the definitions of xenophobia and racism mean jack-loving-poo poo. I'm operating within accepted definitions, while you're making poo poo up because you're afraid of admitting to youself that you're a racist. So afraid, in fact, that you're willingly accepting being called a xenophobe (hint: being a xenophobe isn't really any better, but I guess it helps that the word doesn't come with as much stigma attached). edit: Also, lol at arguing "you can't be racist against a religion". And making racism out to be super-duper bad (I mean, it is, but still), while defending xenophobia with a literal loving appeal to tradition. I guess since Jews used to be barred by law from entering Norway, it's totally reasonable for me to not want Jews here. Scherloch fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 00:11
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