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Snak posted:I love both games a lot, and I think the part I bolded is really shallow or you really didn't look at the writing in Witcher 3. You're mistaking verisimilitude with quality, and a "realist" aesthetic for themes. The witcher is essentially a drama that's set in a fantasy setting; what makes it novel is that it achieves a level of verisimilitude that you don't often see in games writing. Thematically, though, it doesn't have much to say. What's the theme of witcher 3? What does the witcher 3 have to say about "the nature of humanity"? That it's good to be a good dad? At best it's about perseverance in the face of unwind able odds. Except that's kinda overruled once entropy itself is defeated in a fight. There aren't any particularly interesting themes in the witcher and that's fine because believable writing and characters make it interesting enough despite it not having much to say. Characters in metal gear are caricatures that exist for thematic reasons. The message comes before the writing. Furthermore the aesthetic is adamantly anti-realism. Lots of nerds seem to think that realism is something desirable and a sign of quality (in part because they have a simulationist view of fiction) and have difficulty understanding works that do not attempt verisimilitude.
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Sep 24, 2015 08:55
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Yeah Bro posted:Characters in metal gear are caricatures that exist for thematic reasons. And how does this makes MGSV writing good exactly? I mean, it worked in 3 where all the characters were kinda goofy because they were transplanted from classic spy thrillers but there's none of that in 5. People expected realism because that's exactly what Ground Zeroes delivered - a really dark (in a realistic way) story. One more thing that W3 story did way better than V: the characters actually develop throughout the story. They change and it's fun seeing them change. Meanwhile you get the flatest Ocelot character in all the series and one-note "I'm crazy as hell" Miller. The only person who actually has an arc is Quiet but it's still undercooked. Terminally Bored fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 09:03
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Terminally Bored posted:And how does this makes MGSV writing good exactly? Lol Like, dude, read what I wrote. I criticized y'all for believing that all characters in fiction should be judged on how "real" or "believable" they are, and y'all respond with "metal gear characters are not realistic or believable". Lol "drat, these characters who're in a series that has been( in 3, pw & v) about the reduction of a people] into a symbol, and how that is then used to mobilize ideology are 1 dimensional symbols. What's going on!?!?"
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Sep 24, 2015 09:14
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Yeah Bro posted:Lol That's absolutely not what I meant. It's not about the realism (although as I said, people expected it because GZ set it up). MGS as a series embraced pulp and paper-thin characters but even pulp stories have to be delivered properly. As people here mentioned, V is full of themes and sideplots that don't go anywhere. There's 1984 but apart from some MB posters and Miller saying everyone should suspect everyone it doesn't move anywhere. Miller even apologizes for all this few cutscenes later and it's abandoned completely. There's the hallucination part but it appears in the first mission and Paz arc only. The main plot doesn't build up properly, there are no story beats to it either. The tapes help a bit, but they make the whole thing look like a Greek drama - there's whole lotta talking but the most important stuff happens behind the scenes. Terminally Bored fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 09:25
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Yeah Bro posted:Lol wait, are you saying that the characters in MG are already thematic symbols, but the theme is about them being reduced to symbols? so we're flattening already flat characters awesome. for the record I agree that Witcher 3 has no coherent overall theme and weird though that it turns out to be a generally more satisfying story
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Sep 24, 2015 09:45
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Jintor posted:wait, are you saying that the characters in MG are already thematic symbols, but the theme is about them being reduced to symbols? one of the core thematic ideas present throughout the series is that of legacy, how our actions impact the future and how we are impacted by the past. This is clearly visible in 1,2 & 4. Big Boss is a memetic figure responsible for the present being how it is. The nuance is that he is not responsible due to any inherent natural superiority (the genetically superior liquid and solidius die to an inferior big boss clone and a memetic clone of that clone). By the end of the second game, the clear thesis statement is that the symbolic, memetic aspects of a person contribute more to their legend than anything inherent to them. The third game, a prequel, has to establish how memes are formed. It takes big boss prior to his transformation into a cultural symbol. The boss takes on the memetic function in mgs3 as big boss did in one and two. Anyway, I'll cut to the chase. By the time peace walker & Tpp roll around (I personally consider them two halves of the same game) Big Boss has become a cultural symbol, there is nothing left to reduce from him. Big Boss the person no longer exists. He is a signifier without a corresponding signified, as much of a symbol as the boss was to him and zero he becomes to les enfants and ocelot. Tldr: this game would introduce nothing new and wind back on pw if big boss was a fleshed out character in his own right.
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Sep 24, 2015 09:58
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I'm convinced
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Sep 24, 2015 10:06
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I like that one of the most overlooked details of Phantom Pain's open world that Kojipro probably had to do an absurd amount of work to optimize/scale to all platforms is that every NPC in the map you're in is active at the same time. Seriously, you can mark an entire outpost on one side of the map, travel all the way to the other side, light up the Phantom Cigar, pull up your iDroid and observe them going about their markers going about their business. I haven't tried screwing with them from that distance so I don't know if you could like, detonate a bunch of C4 from there, but they are there and going about their schedules. Not to mention how it affects outpost reinforcements, where it doesn't just do a simple check and spawn some guards, it actually has them physically book it from one outpost to the other. All of this simulatory business needs to be able to go at absurd speeds with the Phantom Cigar, as well, which must of taken some serious trickery to get working (and admittedly does bug out pretty often if you use it near guard routes). This is game is practically heaven for people that like dicking around with AI and having actual ecosystems/rudimentary NPC economies to interfere with. More games need to do this, in fact every open world game needs to do this. I think I discovered their occlusion/LOD method for when there's too many people in one place, though, I plopped a whole boatload of unconscious dudes in one central place, and at certain distances and facing them a certain way turned them into... green smoke. I didn't test if they can be conscious and move around in this state, but yeah.
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Sep 24, 2015 11:08
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Do the reinforcements work properly? Half the time like 3 dudes show up to assist and the other half I just here the enemy radio babbling on until they give up. The only time I've seen significant reinforcements is around the largest base and that weird prison thing in Afghanistan.
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Sep 24, 2015 12:39
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Sylink posted:Do the reinforcements work properly? Half the time like 3 dudes show up to assist and the other half I just here the enemy radio babbling on until they give up. As far as I can tell the game realistically models troops being pulled in from neighbouring outposts so it often takes a while for them to arrive and there usually aren't that many. The last time I had a call for reinforcements go out four guys turned up from the outpost up the road just as I secured the base and got on the AA gun.
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Sep 24, 2015 12:45
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That explains it, I still wish there was some ridiculous GTA style escalation.
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Sep 24, 2015 12:57
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beLIEve. chapter 3: peace is actually about peace of mind. the phantoms gone and quiet is chico who is also big boss.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:06
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apparently putting UUDDLRLRBA (konami code) as your name removes kaz's glasses in the motherbase photo the doc shows you. there's picture proof at /neverbegameover but there seems to be some condition to other than the konami code because some can get it to work and others can't. super weird. https://www.reddit.com/r/NeverBeGameOver/comments/3m6543/tried_something_regarding_the_konami_code/
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Sep 24, 2015 13:45
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I've just started Witcher 3 so I can't really weigh in on this little argument but I will say that the biggest comparison I have between it and MGSV are the horse mechanics. I miss being able to whistle while running and having D-Horse run up next to me and jumping on without breaking a sweat. Roach sucks 
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Sep 24, 2015 14:42
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d-horse also poops on command
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Sep 24, 2015 14:43
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D-Horse is basically the best video game horse ever
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Sep 24, 2015 14:58
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Regy Rusty posted:D-Horse is basically the best video game horse ever Red Dead Redemption's Horses control a lot better.
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Sep 24, 2015 14:59
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Nitrousoxide posted:Red Dead Redemption's Horses control a lot better.
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Sep 24, 2015 15:02
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I do like that Roach can just auto-pilot down defined roads, though that wouldn't really be very useful in TPP. However, the battle armor and Furicorn skin more than make up for it. My only regret is that one of the D-Horse upgrades wasn't a mounted grenade launcher a la this battle-donkey: 
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Sep 24, 2015 15:13
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Just finished this game and just to say the Skull Face jeep ride has to be one of the most awkward moments in gaming history. So weird.
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Sep 24, 2015 15:25
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:Just finished this game and just to say the Skull Face jeep ride has to be one of the most awkward moments in gaming history. So weird. Yeah, Skull Face is easily the worst villain in the entire series. His motivations and plan are so weird and lovely, and that Jeep Ride is like borderline Bizarre. Skull Face is just like a nameless, faceless "ooga booga" bad guy and it's really dumb. It's a long way from fighting your Daddy Issue ridden clone brother on top of a Metal gear, Dueling the president of the United States with katanas, murdering your mentor and mother figure with her own gun, and, best of all, having an old man fist fight for almost no reason other than just two dudes wanting to beat the piss out of eachother after literally everything has been resolved. Instead the main villain has a piece of metal fall on him and you shoot off his limbs.
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Sep 24, 2015 15:46
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Paul Zuvella posted:Yeah, Skull Face is easily the worst villain in the entire series. His motivations and plan are so weird and lovely, and that Jeep Ride is like borderline Bizarre. Skull Face is just like a nameless, faceless "ooga booga" bad guy and it's really dumb. It's a long way from fighting your Daddy Issue ridden clone brother on top of a Metal gear, Dueling the president of the United States with katanas, murdering your mentor and mother figure with her own gun, and, best of all, having an old man fist fight for almost no reason other than just two dudes wanting to beat the piss out of eachother after literally everything has been resolved. Volgin is worse and Hot Coldman is only better for having an amazing name.
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Sep 24, 2015 15:48
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i don't get the awkward jeep ride comments. he has a typical bond villain speech, venom is busy keeping his eyes peeled on his surroundings and all the enemy combatants around and then skull face just chills and turns on the radio. it's not anymore weird or awkward compared the rest of the series. also he is big boss's demon side, his mentally unstable evil half, hence why big boss keeps seeing skull face around long after his death, skullface saying the same big boss lines and hell even the launch trailer spelled it out for you (like so much else) and in the pure villain sense, at least he did something memorable. hot coldman i can barely remember anything he did, cept for pushing huey down the stairs which i guess makes him a hero in hindsight. Vikar Jerome fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 15:51
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Vikar Jerome posted:i don't get the awkward jeep ride comments. he has a typical bond villain speech, venom is busy keeping his eyes peeled on his surroundings and all the enemy combatants around and then skull face just chills and turns on the radio. it's not anymore weird or awkward compared the rest of the series. also he is big boss's demon side, his mentally unstable evil half, hence why big boss keeps seeing skull face around long after his death, skullface saying the same big boss lines and hell even the launch trailer spelled it out for you (like so much else) Venom literally says nothing to him the entire time. Big Boss is just kind of hanging out in this dudes Jeep as he tells him a really lovely story. fatherboxx posted:Volgin is worse and Hot Coldman is only better for having an amazing name. Volgin is not really the central Character to the entire game though, The Boss is. I can't speak for Hot Coldman because I was not an idiot who bought a PSP. 
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Sep 24, 2015 15:59
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The jeep ride isn't any more awkward than the ladder climb. In fact, the former is probably a homage to the latter.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:00
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Funky Valentine posted:The jeep ride isn't any more awkward than the ladder climb. In fact, the former is probably a homage to the latter. In what way are these two events even similar?
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Sep 24, 2015 16:02
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Talking about bad Metal Gear villains, but what about the guy from Portable Ops?
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Sep 24, 2015 16:03
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fatherboxx posted:Volgin is worse I have seen a lot of wrong things on the internet but this is up there. Volgin is absolutely amazing. Paul Zuvella posted:In what way are these two events even similar? Needlessly long events punctuated by inappropriate music turning up. Though it's obvious the ladder was just masking loading where as the jeep is not.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:08
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The jeep ride was weird because it felt like they ran out of dialogue and just went "gently caress it just put on Sins of the Father". No one would be talking about it if Skull Face's speech was longer/the jeep ride was shorter.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:08
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Paul Zuvella posted:In what way are these two events even similar? Aurain posted:Needlessly long events punctuated by inappropriate music turning up.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:10
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Paul Zuvella posted:In what way are these two events even similar? Two long segments transitioning from one area to another, accompanied by sudden, out of place music just as you start to wonder if it's about to end? A nod to the ladder scene was my (and a ton of other peoples') first reaction, as well. The MGS games are pretty self-aware.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:10
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Rirse posted:Talking about bad Metal Gear villains, but what about the guy from Portable Ops? I was about to say, Gene is by far the least memorable.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:11
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At least Skullface didn't say "by the way, I was the one who told Volgin to shoot a nuke"
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Sep 24, 2015 16:12
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Hijo Del Helmsley posted:I was about to say, Gene is by far the least memorable. Which is weird, because on paper, he seems like he'd be pretty memorable. Big Boss steals his trench coat in MGS4, I guess.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:13
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Paul Zuvella posted:Venom literally says nothing to him the entire time. Big Boss is just kind of hanging out in this dudes Jeep as he tells him a really lovely story. Why didn't you play Peace Walker HD.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:13
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Which is weird, because on paper, he seems like he'd be pretty memorable. Miller stole it for TPP too. Then Liquid stole it for MGS1. Thing's more of a relic than the bandana.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:15
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Paul Zuvella posted:Volgin is not really the central Character to the entire game though, The Boss is. I can't speak for Hot Coldman because I was not an idiot who bought a PSP. peace walker is the second best metal gear game and available on ps3
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Sep 24, 2015 16:15
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Aurain posted:Though it's obvious the ladder was just masking loading where as the jeep is not. The ladder does not mask any loading screens. If you go back down to the bottom after starting the climb and then climb back up, the ladder will only last until the song is over.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:15
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Aurain posted:I have seen a lot of wrong things on the internet but this is up there. Volgin, The Boss and Ocelot make a really good triumvirate of antagonists. Splitting the dignified villain with a reasonable point and the mental 'IT'S NOT OVER YET' crazy guy into separate characters in particular was a great idea and MGS3 got to do a lot of fun stuff by splitting the roles up
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Sep 24, 2015 16:16
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In my game Venom's real name is Vermon CaTaffy. e: Hijo Del Helmsley posted:Miller stole it for TPP too. Then Liquid stole it for MGS1. Is there any evidence that Liquid ever actually wears a shirt underneath that trenchcoat? He's a fan of the bare chest. e2: Sorry but after playing it over summer on HD collection after 1-4, I think PW sucks. The gameplay is anemic and the story lame (hated the motion comics). Now that 5 is here I don't know that I'll ever return to it. I'd put PW a solid last on MGS rankings, well behind 4. Electromax fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 16:17
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