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Vengarr posted:I think it's interesting that there are only three names listed on the photo. Morpho, Kaz, "Vic" Boss. Is he hallucinating his robot hand and the giant piece of shrapnel that are consistently referenced by other characters?
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Sep 25, 2015 20:07
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The split personalities theory really doesn't hold any water if you give it more than a cursory glance. Too much of the game hinges on Venom being a separate person, turning him into a split personality makes the entire game's narrative incredibly hollow and it just ends up creating a ton of questions without answering anything. There really isn't anything in the game that calls Venom's existence into question - the plot itself is straightforward, but it has a lot of depth, and there is absolutely nothing to be gained by interpreting the narrative as a case of MPD.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:08
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Crappy Jack posted:Is he hallucinating his robot hand and the giant piece of shrapnel that are consistently referenced by other characters? On the other hand, Big Boss has cyborg body parts in MG2. The shrapnel is getting pushed out of his head during the course of the game, presumably it would just have been removed entirely at some point. He doesn't have a robo hand in MGS4 because he was rebuilt with bits of Solidus and Liquid after getting torched in MG2. Grizzled Patriarch posted:The split personalities theory really doesn't hold any water if you give it more than a cursory glance. Too much of the game hinges on Venom being a separate person, turning him into a split personality makes the entire game's narrative incredibly hollow and it just ends up creating a ton of questions without answering anything. There really isn't anything in the game that calls Venom's existence into question - the plot itself is straightforward, but it has a lot of depth, and there is absolutely nothing to be gained by interpreting the narrative as a case of MPD. What part of the game hinges on Venom being a completely separate person from BB, apart from the Truth?
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Sep 25, 2015 20:13
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He has multiple personalities, but they're all Big Boss!
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Sep 25, 2015 20:13
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Vengarr posted:On the other hand, Big Boss has cyborg body parts in MG2. The shrapnel is getting pushed out of his head during the course of the game, presumably it would just have been removed entirely at some point. I made a big effortpost a page ago about it. A ton of the game's major themes and characterization would be completely null and void if Venom was imaginary. On top of that it would just be incredibly bad, lazy storytelling that serves no purpose whatsoever.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:16
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:I made a big effortpost a page ago about it. A ton of the game's major themes and characterization would be completely null and void if Venom was imaginary. On top of that it would just be incredibly bad, lazy storytelling that serves no purpose whatsoever. You really can't believe that Hideo Kojima would intentionally gently caress with you for the sake of it? Even with "There are no facts, there are only interpretations" and all the references to 1984 leading up to a mission called "Truth"?
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Sep 25, 2015 20:24
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Vengarr posted:You really can't believe that Hideo Kojima would intentionally gently caress with you for the sake of it? Even with "There are no facts, there are only interpretations" and all the references to 1984 leading up to a mission called "Truth"? Big Boss was an alien all along, then. Since we can just grab at random theories and say they're all true even if they're in no way supported by the text and the theory would run counter to the entire point of the game itself. Maybe the whole franchise was just the dream Johnny was having while he passed out in an Alaskan toilet from making GBS threads his pants too hard.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:27
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Crappy Jack posted:Big Boss was an alien all along, then. Since we can just grab at random theories and say they're all true even if they're in no way supported by the text and the theory would run counter to the entire point of the game itself. Maybe the whole franchise was just the dream Johnny was having while he passed out in an Alaskan toilet from making GBS threads his pants too hard. The tape of the guy making GBS threads himself is the key to the whole series.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:30
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Crappy Jack posted:Big Boss was an alien all along, then. Since we can just grab at random theories and say they're all true even if they're in no way supported by the text and the theory would run counter to the entire point of the game itself. Maybe the whole franchise was just the dream Johnny was having while he passed out in an Alaskan toilet from making GBS threads his pants too hard. The whole Paz sidequest is evidence enough that he's delusional enough to make up an entire little world for himself, and there are enough inconsistencies in the "Truth" to make a more open-minded person wonder.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:33
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Vengarr posted:You really can't believe that Hideo Kojima would intentionally gently caress with you for the sake of it? Even with "There are no facts, there are only interpretations" and all the references to 1984 leading up to a mission called "Truth"? Did you go back read what I wrote? No, I don't think Kojima decided to end his series by randomly loving with players in a way that is not at all supported by the game. Say what you will about his writing, but Kojima has a very consistent message and he keeps coming back to the same themes and symbols in all of his games. He isn't trying to outsmart you. This game isn't a riddle waiting to be solved. It is a straightforward narrative that touches on some really deep stuff. Everyone has basically been expecting Kojima to "trick" them since MGS2, except that wasn't a trick either. It was a very deliberate decision that reinforced the points he has been making in every game. Seriously, there is nothing in the game to suggest that Venom isn't real. His name missing from a photograph caption is an incredible stretch and ignores all of the tapes that literally talk about turning the medic into a phantom. Zero's entire tragic / redemptive arc depends on Venom being a real person. Was Big Boss hallucinating all during Ground Zeroes? The medic was a real person there. You see the medic's face in the ACC window and in the final cutscene, and you also see the real Big Boss without any shrapnel or bionic limbs. Are you arguing that Big Boss has 3 different personalities? Venom being real is also the explanation for how Big Boss can be in two different places at the same time in MG1 and how he "dies" and comes back in MG2. It is all very deliberate. That quote (and the 1984 references) make more sense in the larger context of the series than as some dumb fake-out. MGS is all about "interpretations" - the interpretations of wills. Or rather, their misinterpretations. The better question is, what is there to be gained from making him a split personality? There isn't any message there. All of the themes fall apart. It would turn into lovely Fight Club fan fiction. I think if you really believe that Kojima would put this much effort into a game "just to gently caress with you for the sake of it," you haven't really been paying attention to this series. Vengarr posted:The whole Paz sidequest is evidence enough that he's delusional enough to make up an entire little world for himself, and there are enough inconsistencies in the "Truth" to make a more open-minded person wonder. He's hallucinating out of a combination of guilt and trauma. Your theory would be going into some crazy rabbithole where he's a man hallucinating that he's another man hallucinating that he's yet another man who is himself having a hallucination. Come on now. Your character's name not being printed on the back of the photo isn't an "inconsistency." It's likely that the back of the picture is just a texture "frame" with a spot in the middle for your name to show up. Trying to use that as evidence that Venom is actually an imaginary person is kind of absurd. And again, I keep asking: what would be the point? Why the hell would Kojima throw away all of the themes and messages he has been building on for 30 years just to go "aha!" and pop a sick wheelie before riding off into the sunset? You are literally advocating an "it was all a dream" ending. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 20:39
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Vengarr posted:You really can't believe that Hideo Kojima would intentionally gently caress with you for the sake of it? Even with "There are no facts, there are only interpretations" and all the references to 1984 leading up to a mission called "Truth"? Kojima isn't some trickster god screwing with people for no other reason than the hell of it, even his weirder stuff like MGS2 was carefully crafted to create a certain mood and work towards the game's quite academic ideas. Buying into the most stupid and pointless interpretations possible for the sheer sake of them being obtuse and pointless is just stupid
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Sep 25, 2015 20:40
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Vengarr posted:The whole Paz sidequest is evidence enough that he's delusional enough to make up an entire little world for himself, and there are enough inconsistencies in the "Truth" to make a more open-minded person wonder. What would the point be, is the question? How does it figure into the plot if Venom Snake was, in fact, a figment of Big Boss' imagination? It's not a question of being open minded to just assume that anything is possible in a work of fiction, it's a question of trying to understand a work and its themes, what it's trying to communicate to the viewer. We have a very compelling argument for why the plot is what it's presented as, that Venom Snake finds himself in the same position as his predecessor, about the cyclical nature of violence and Big Boss' inability to understand the harm that he causes as he ceaselessy chases after a misguided goal. So why is it more compelling to argue that actually that guy who has a very important plot related reason to exist doesn't actually exist? Because the temporary rush of a gotcha moment is more compelling than themes and character development? Stories are not puzzles to be figured out, solved, and beaten, they're to be engaged with, understood, and thought about.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:40
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Also, I just realized another thing. If you go naked on Venom while playing The Phantom Pain, he doesn't have the Boss' scar he inflicted on himself. So if you played Peace Walker, you'd instantly know it wasn't the real Big Boss. EDIT: Venom definitely exists, as he's Big Boss' double as proved when he gets the tape from the Boss regarding Solid Snake's infiltration mission (I'd love for him to have remade MGS 1 and 2 with the Fox Engine). Seriously, Kojima fuckery in this game was pretty much limited to 'you are Big Boss'. Everything else plot-wise was relatively straightforward with the except of Paz, which was probably my favorite moment storywise. There just wasn't a lot done with the twist which makes me sad. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 20:55
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Dapper Dan posted:Also, I just realized another thing. If you go naked on Venom while playing The Phantom Pain, he doesn't have the Boss' scar he inflicted on himself. So if you played Peace Walker, you'd instantly know it wasn't the real Big Boss. That was actually a fake scar that had a jigsaw hidden inside it (yes, really), but it is possible to escape from the prison in PW without using it and so a bunch of people just never even saw the scene explaining it.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:57
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Dapper Dan posted:Also, I just realized another thing. If you go naked on Venom while playing The Phantom Pain, he doesn't have the Boss' scar he inflicted on himself. So if you played Peace Walker, you'd instantly know it wasn't the real Big Boss. That wasn't a real scar.
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Sep 25, 2015 20:57
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This (http://europeanextreme.tumblr.com/post/128801653764/tpp-analysis) I thought was a good analysis of Phantom Pain and explains Quiet and Paz's roles as vehicles for Big Boss to come to terms with killing the Boss, except it's Venom Snake who goes through that development while the real Big Boss fucks off to make Outer Heaven and doesn't get that development until MGS4. Also I agree with it that the lyrics of Sins of the Father are from Venom Snake's perspective and talking about about Big Boss.
SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 21:00
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Let's face it. What really happened is some nerd was playing Ground Zeroes and my sheer chance, his PS4 exploded right when Paz did onscreen. A chunk of the PS4 lodged in his brain. Out of guilt and loyalty, Hideo Kojima came to visit this comatose fan in the hospital. This is why he appears in the game. You are that fan. You are still in a coma. My head hurts.... Snake?
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Sep 25, 2015 21:00
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Really? drat. I didn't know that. Ah well.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:00
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Kojima isn't some trickster god screwing with people for no other reason than the hell of it, even his weirder stuff like MGS2 was carefully crafted to create a certain mood and work towards the game's quite academic ideas. Kojima is also not a brilliant writer. He slaps together things he's seen from movies and coats it with a mayonnaise-like smearing of plot. MGS2 was carefully crafted, my rear end--he himself tried to blame its incoherence on the translation, then bitched out when the translator herself called him out on it. He's capable of subtle writing, but only for the sake of being obtuse. e: MGS3 was his best game because its the one time he didn't apply his brand of cleverness to the story. It's as straightforward a plot as you can get. Vengarr fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 21:01
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another theory. http://imgur.com/JPOJeJD,nBqjhR2,qhcZKdn these get better and better. quote:To give clarification lol Vikar Jerome fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 21:02
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Vengarr posted:Kojima is also not a brilliant writer. He slaps together things he's seen from movies and coats it with a mayonnaise-like smearing of plot. MGS2 was carefully crafted, my rear end--he himself tried to blame its incoherence on the translation, then bitched out when the translator herself called him out on it. He's capable of subtle writing, but only for the sake of being obtuse. This doesn't matter, though. A work stands independently of its creator; in fact, many popular authors and screenwriters admit that you don't intentionally work themes into a work, you create the work and the themes stand out on their own. You don't engage with the author, you engage with the work. Even if Kojima didn't succeed at what he attempted to do, even if MGS2 ends up being, to the viewer's mind, a crazy hodgepodge mishmash, this doesn't matter, because that hodgepodge IS the work. For all we know, Da Vinci just wanted to draw a picture of a lady, but that doesn't mean that centuries later, we're still not trying to figure out why she's smiling.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:06
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Vikar Jerome posted:another theory. http://imgur.com/JPOJeJD,nBqjhR2,qhcZKdn loving drat that 11 or so year old boy is rocking a SWEET beard.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:10
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We're genuinely discussing Death of the Author in relation to a video game. Humanity has peaked. Aurain posted:loving drat that 11 or so year old boy is rocking a SWEET beard. Wasn't Solidus artificially aged up? Not that that theory is anything other than a galactic-scale reach.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:11
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Hijo Del Helmsley posted:We're genuinely discussing Death of the Author in relation to a video game. The alternative is "He was dead the whole time!", aka the first dumb fan theory that gets attached to any work that came out after An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:13
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Vengarr posted:Kojima is also not a brilliant writer. He slaps together things he's seen from movies and coats it with a mayonnaise-like smearing of plot. MGS2 was carefully crafted, my rear end--he himself tried to blame its incoherence on the translation, then bitched out when the translator herself called him out on it. He's capable of subtle writing, but only for the sake of being obtuse. You know a piece of media can draw from other sources and still have value right? Tarantino's career has been a succession of extended homages to other films and he's one of the most celebrated filmmakers in the American mainstream. Anyway, regardless of how Kojima made or didn't make MGS2 it was a smart game which did has far too consistent in its tone and ideas to be accidental, the whole thing was a deliberate deconstruction of the video game power fantasy a whole decade before art-games became popular. It is kinda funny though after posts and posts of 'what crazy thing will Kojima do to us next?!' you reveal basically have no respect for his skills as a writer whatsoever Crappy Jack posted:This doesn't matter, though. A work stands independently of its creator; in fact, many popular authors and screenwriters admit that you don't intentionally work themes into a work, you create the work and the themes stand out on their own. You don't engage with the author, you engage with the work. Even if Kojima didn't succeed at what he attempted to do, even if MGS2 ends up being, to the viewer's mind, a crazy hodgepodge mishmash, this doesn't matter, because that hodgepodge IS the work. For all we know, Da Vinci just wanted to draw a picture of a lady, but that doesn't mean that centuries later, we're still not trying to figure out why she's smiling. This is also a good point though I'm willing to give Kojima (and his writing team) a little benefit of the doubt for MGS2, that game did some very specific stuff which I don't think was just a happy accident
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Sep 25, 2015 21:14
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:That was actually a fake scar that had a jigsaw hidden inside it (yes, really), but it is possible to escape from the prison in PW without using it and so a bunch of people just never even saw the scene explaining it. I never knew that and I'm kind of disappointed to learn it. There wasn't a whole lot I liked about Peace Walker's writing in general though, but I loved TPP's and thought The Big Twist worked well. Good posts.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:15
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A Steampunk Gent posted:You know a piece of media can draw from other sources and still have value right? Tarantino's career has been a succession of extended homages to other films and he's one of the most celebrated filmmakers in the American mainstream. Anyway, regardless of how Kojima made or didn't make MGS2 it was a smart game which did has far too consistent in its tone and ideas to be accidental, the whole thing was a deliberate deconstruction of the video game power fantasy a whole decade before art-games became popular. It is kinda funny though after posts and posts of 'what crazy thing will Kojima do to us next?!' you reveal basically have no respect for his skills as a writer whatsoever As a writer, he's highly entertaining. That doesn't make him "good". When the hell did it come to pass that people are considering MGS2 smartly constructed? And god help me, now it's called a "deconstruction" and not a "clusterfuck"? It was the greatest failure of videogames-as-art I can think of, an attempt to build a complex, plot-driven narrative that collapsed on almost every level imaginable. e: Actually, Snatcher and MGS3 were pretty well-written. Let's say that Kojima is a good writer with some crippling flaws and who badly needs an editor. Vengarr fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 21:20
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If I recall rightly, the scar is even gone for good after he removes it even on the PotatoStation Portable. I bet it hurt like a motherfucker getting it in there
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Sep 25, 2015 21:20
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Vengarr posted:As a writer, he's highly entertaining. That doesn't make him "good". Why do you view it as a clusterfuck, out of curiosity?
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Sep 25, 2015 21:25
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Vengarr posted:As a writer, he's highly entertaining. That doesn't make him "good". I mean... MGS2 was always a deconstruction? Like... I don't know man, it might not be your taste, but it's definitely video-games-as-art as gently caress. It's game about being the second game in a franchise, played by fans who want it to be the same as the first game but better, and the story is that the bad guys, who are like the bad guys from the first game, "but better" want to make a version of the hero from the first game, but better. And loving simulations and virtual reality, literal video games, are one of the in-game mechanics for doing this.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:27
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Vengarr posted:As a writer, he's highly entertaining. That doesn't make him "good". Don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide. Vikar Jerome fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 21:28
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Vengarr posted:As a writer, he's highly entertaining. That doesn't make him "good". Isn't MGS3 the first metal gear game that is kinda truly its own, like mg1, mg2, mgs1, were just him redoing things to improve on old designs, then mgs2 was ingame version of that
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Sep 25, 2015 21:31
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Ekusukariba posted:Isn't MGS3 the first metal gear game that is kinda truly its own, like mg1, mg2, mgs1, were just him redoing things to improve on old designs, then mgs2 was ingame version of that eh.. kinda, but MGS3 also continues a lot of the memes of the mgs franchise. But like, it's a prequel, so everything is slightly different, because it's resetting the beginning, re-contextualizing the origins of the memes "in universe" while the memes from the players perspective continue in real time. For example, MGS3 still has a sniper-fight. But it's the only MGS where the sniper isn't a woman. Fighting the Shagohod with Volgin on it is like fighting Vulcan Raven. EVA's outfit is reminiscent of Sniper Wolf's, while EVA herself plays a role more similar to Meryl. Snake puts on a mask that makes him look like Raiden. loving lol. Someone pees their pants. Torture scene. In fact, it's a loving miracle that the torture scenes in MGSV take place with the torturee usually in a chair, since normally they would be strung up or clamped up by their arms. I guess Paz covered this in GZ though.
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Sep 25, 2015 21:40
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Vengarr posted:As a writer, he's highly entertaining. That doesn't make him "good". I thought this was a sweet vid analyzing mgs2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2YuPGYabw
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Sep 25, 2015 21:47
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whalestory posted:I thought this was a sweet vid analyzing mgs2 6 minutes in... p good so far. This a pretty good video, everyone should watch it. Unless they haven't played MGS2. In which case they should play MGS2, then watch this video. Snak fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 21:54
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When Miller is loudly asking you why they shouldn't kill Huey at the end, I really, REALLY wanted BB to just tell him "Time Paradox" and then smash cut to Huey in a boat or something.
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Sep 25, 2015 22:53
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Vengarr posted:It was the greatest failure of videogames-as-art I can think of, Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy
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Sep 25, 2015 22:57
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Speaking of that scene, Miller's GUILTY! GUILTY! was very embarrassing to listen to. I was almost on board for that scene before that line.
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Sep 25, 2015 22:57
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Kojima should have made you listen to the full 10 minutes of the audio they found in the AI core during that cutscene. But then you would really sit there wondering why you don't just kill him after.
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Sep 25, 2015 22:59
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CJacobs posted:Speaking of that scene, Miller's GUILTY! GUILTY! was very embarrassing to listen to. I was almost on board for that scene before that line. On the other hand, it thrilled me from beginning to end. (Roger Ebert, Lethal Weapon) Here's Potato Judge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80o1VQbtwPI
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Sep 25, 2015 23:01
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