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Okay, let's forget punishment and instead frame this in positive terms. As those best placed to deal with the current crisis, both able and largely willing, does europe not have a collective, social responsibility to act? All karmic debts and historic obligations aside, surely there's a basic, humanitarian imperative in play here that supersedes poo poo-slinging about colonialism and empire.
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Sep 27, 2015 16:26
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Lowtechs posted:It is obvious that SA should start to accept it's quota of refugees. Uhh if anything SA is about to go full Syria and everyone ITT is months away from the great Reddit diaspora e: what I mean by that is gently caress off we're full Adar fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 16:27
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lmaoboy1998 posted:This sounds very profound but is actually very vapid if you think about it for more than a second. My basic point is that it's better to make up for current misdeeds rather than past ones (its ridiculous to speak of colonialism as something in the past). And even better is that you do something because it's good and ethical, not because you want to "pay" for past misdeeds or whatever (and thus legitimize them). BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 18:01
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computer parts posted:The two main countries in the EU had worldwide empires, as did Italy, Belgium, and other nations. This makes as much sense as saying that because of the NAFTA, Obama should pay reparations to Central American nations for conquistadors.
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Sep 27, 2015 18:25
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steinrokkan posted:This makes as much sense as saying that because of the NAFTA, Obama should pay reparations to Central American nations for conquistadors. No, there are other reasons why the US should pay reparations to Central America.
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Sep 27, 2015 18:27
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The Great European Model. Bullies in every corner of society. http://www.rt.com/news/316485-activists-steal-dog-homeless/ RT posted:Cause Animal Nord called the homeless man, “a Roma.” This followed the publication of a police report, after the man had filed a complaint against the group for stealing his dog, which was stated to be a Pekinese puppy. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 18:30
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Nonsense posted:The Great European Model. Bullies in every corner of society. At first I thought that animal rights and anti-immigration were a strange combination, but... 
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Sep 27, 2015 18:36
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computer parts posted:No, there are other reasons why the US should pay reparations to Central America. So it doesn't make sense.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:24
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steinrokkan posted:So it doesn't make sense. Oh it does, just that that was a terrible example for you to use. The EU is also much more integrated than NATO is.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:27
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computer parts posted:Oh it does, just that that was a terrible example for you to use. First, I said NAFTA, not NATO, because the EU has closer to a FTA than to a political union, second, the idea to base policies of a wildly divergent group of countries on some sort of retributive reasoning that is completely blind with regards to which countries are the supposed historical culprits and which countries are actually "paying the debt" makes no sense.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:38
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steinrokkan posted:First, I said NAFTA, not NATO, because the EU has closer to a FTA than to a political union, second, the idea to base policies of a wildly divergent group of countries on some sort of retributive reasoning that is completely blind with regards to which countries are the supposed historical culprits and which countries are actually "paying the debt" makes no sense. Actually, European countries as a whole should pay reparations to other countries for current events, along with the particular reparations necessary for the old colonial powers. Or they could mount a major campaign to stamp out racism, and be able to beg off from having to pay reparations from the substantial depopulation that would ensue.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:40
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steinrokkan posted:First, I said NAFTA, not NATO, because the EU has closer to a FTA than to a political union, second, the idea to base policies of a wildly divergent group of countries on some sort of retributive reasoning that is completely blind with regards to which countries are the supposed historical culprits and which countries are actually "paying the debt" makes no sense. Oh, somehow I read that as NATO. I guess because conquistadors came from Spain and they're not a part of NAFTA, so that would make even less sense. I mean you really hosed yourself by using US-Latin American relations as a reason why Europe shouldn't care about other people.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:40
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computer parts posted:Oh, somehow I read that as NATO. I guess because conquistadors came from Spain and they're not a part of NAFTA, so that would make even less sense. I used a very specific relation (Spain -> Mexico -> NAFTA -> collective historical guilt), you decided to change it to US-LA relation to make an asinine point. Like, if you people call the EU responsible for example for the partitioning of the Middle East post-WWI, which happened before many of the current members even gained independence, then it makes equal sense to hold all members of other unions responsible for other events that happened before their existence and to which they are only linked by vague association. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 19:47
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steinrokkan posted:I used a very specific relation (Spain -> Mexico -> NAFTA -> collective historical guilt), you decided to change it to US-LA relation to make an asinine point. No, you didn't. You said "Central American nations". Either you're lying or very geographically ignorant.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:49
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Effectronica posted:No, you didn't. You said "Central American nations". Either you're lying or very geographically ignorant.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:51
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steinrokkan posted:Maybe it wasn't obvious - I said the US should pay reparations to Central American nations, because it entered into an agreement with Mexico, which is a heir to the Spanish Empire, which committed genocide in Latin American (incl. Central American) regions. Jeez. Okay, then, you've clarified the chain of reasoning you've made up to conclude that reparations are stupid. Am I supposed to be convinced by it?
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Sep 27, 2015 19:54
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Effectronica posted:Okay, then, you've clarified the chain of reasoning you've made up to conclude that reparations are stupid. Am I supposed to be convinced by it? I hope you are not, because that would make me doubt it. Anyway, this has nothing to do with reparations, it's about the disingenuous nature of using collective guilt as an argument in this crisis.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:55
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steinrokkan posted:I hope you are not, because that would make me doubt it. Am I supposed to be convinced that "collective guilt" is bunk because you made up a ridiculous statement for the purpose of proving it to be bunk? Or is this just supposed to be an argument that Europe has very limited responsibilities towards refugees that you've accidentally turned into a blast of the trumpet against apologizing and so many other things?
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Sep 27, 2015 20:00
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Effectronica posted:Am I supposed to be convinced that "collective guilt" is bunk because you made up a ridiculous statement for the purpose of proving it to be bunk? Or is this just supposed to be an argument that Europe has very limited responsibilities towards refugees that you've accidentally turned into a blast of the trumpet against apologizing and so many other things? Europe has a great responsibility towards refugees, but not because of guilt.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:07
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If you feel that Americans as a whole have responsibility for the state of the Americas, fine, but you must see how laughable it is to say that, say, the Greeks are somehow a guilty party in this scenario when they were subjugated by the same Empire as the warring parts of the Middle East for most of the modern era. To return to the thread title - I don't see how they can posibly see it as a crisis of historical conscience.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:11
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steinrokkan posted:If you feel that Americans as a whole have responsibility for the state of the Americas, fine, but you must see how laughable it is to say that, say, the Greeks are somehow a guilty party in this scenarios when they were subjugated by the same Empire as the warring parts of the Middle East for most of the modern era. How about Europe as a whole being responsible because Europeans as a whole are still pretty racist? Maybe you could critique that instead of a thing you made up for the purpose of it being easy to tear down.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:12
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Effectronica posted:How about Europe as a whole being responsible because Europeans as a whole are still pretty racist? Maybe you could critique that instead of a thing you made up for the purpose of it being easy to tear down. I didn't make up the idea that Europe as a whole is guilty of the Middle Eastern crisis, you dense motherfucker.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:13
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steinrokkan posted:I didn't make up the idea that Europe as a whole is guilty of the Middle Eastern crisis, you dense motherfucker. I am talking about this: steinrokkan posted:This makes as much sense as saying that because of the NAFTA, Obama should pay reparations to Central American nations for conquistadors. which you absolutely did make up. Is your memory that poor?
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Sep 27, 2015 20:14
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Effectronica posted:I am talking about this: He made that up because its a worthwhile comparison to the idea that Estonia, Ireland or Croatia are all somehow responsible for the mess that is the Middle East just because they share the same political organisation as Germany, France and Britain. If that's the case then Canada holds some responsibilities towards the Mayans because it shares the same political union as the nation that undertook the caste war of Yucatan. Oh course that point will get ignored in favor of nit-picky bullshit but 
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Sep 27, 2015 20:34
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khwarezm posted:He made that up because its a worthwhile comparison to the idea that Estonia, Ireland or Croatia are all somehow responsible for the mess that is the Middle East just because they share the same political organisation as Germany, France and Britain. If that's the case then Canada holds some responsibilities towards the Mayans because it shares the same political union as the nation that undertook the caste war of Yucatan. If you can find a European country where racism against Middle Easterners and North Africans is virtually non-existent, then you can argue that there's no need for reparations from them, on the grounds earlier suggested. But people argued both with historical arguments and with contingent arguments about reparations, and attacking the historical arguments solely is a mark of faulty argumentation.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:38
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Ok guys, since everyone is racist to everyone, I suggest that we pay each other reparations until they all cancel out, then we have reached equilibrium. ... and... done. I think we're good now.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:50
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mobby_6kl posted:Ok guys, since everyone is racist to everyone, I suggest that we pay each other reparations until they all cancel out, then we have reached equilibrium. I've always wondered if people were consciously aware that they're trying to dismiss racism when they did this, or if they were just stupid, but I doubt I'll learn it today.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:52
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Effectronica posted:If you can find a European country where racism against Middle Easterners and North Africans is virtually non-existent, then you can argue that there's no need for reparations from them, on the grounds earlier suggested. But people argued both with historical arguments and with contingent arguments about reparations, and attacking the historical arguments solely is a mark of faulty argumentation. Wait, I'm actually on your side but are you demanding reparations for simply being racist? You can't really punish wrongthing no matter how repugnant it may be to you. e: as in just the fact of being prejudiced in your head, not perpetrating systematic injustice against a peoples
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Sep 27, 2015 21:07
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SaltyJesus posted:Wait, I'm actually on your side but are you demanding reparations for simply being racist. You can't really punish wrongthing no matter how repugnant it may be to you. Why not? Racism is wrong. Reparations are an acknowledgement of wrongs. It seems like a good fit. Furthermore, we can and do punish "wrongthing" all the time, when it is accompanied by action- jurisprudence considers mens rea as well as the action itself. And racism is not solely a matter of thought, it is expressed, as you can see all through this thread. Thus, to acknowledge their wrongdoing, Europeans should pay reparations. But they won't because that would admit wrongdoing.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:10
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Effectronica posted:If you can find a European country where racism against Middle Easterners and North Africans is virtually non-existent, then you can argue that there's no need for reparations from them, on the grounds earlier suggested. But people argued both with historical arguments and with contingent arguments about reparations, and attacking the historical arguments solely is a mark of faulty argumentation. Should a country's racism towards MENA-people be used as a justification for immigration? Or do I misunderstand you?
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Sep 27, 2015 21:12
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Effectronica posted:I've always wondered if people were consciously aware that they're trying to dismiss racism when they did this, or if they were just stupid, but I doubt I'll learn it today. I'm not dismissing racism, I'm dismissing the idea of paying reparations based on racism.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:14
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Mordekai posted:Should a country's racism towards MENA-people be used as a justification for immigration? Or do I misunderstand you? Well, I'm talking about symbolic reparations, but, that doesn't exclude meaningful ones like taking in immigrants. mobby_6kl posted:I'm not dismissing racism, I'm dismissing the idea of paying reparations based on racism. But everyone is not "racist towards everyone" like you imply. That's simple-mindedness, and thinking it is stupid, and attempting to promulgate it constitutes a very war on intelligence.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:16
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Effectronica posted:If you can find a European country where racism against Middle Easterners and North Africans is virtually non-existent, then you can argue that there's no need for reparations from them, on the grounds earlier suggested. But people argued both with historical arguments and with contingent arguments about reparations, and attacking the historical arguments solely is a mark of faulty argumentation. Draw me a road map as to how these reparations are calculated and distributed.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:16
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Effectronica posted:Why not? Racism is wrong. Reparations are an acknowledgement of wrongs. It seems like a good fit. Reparations are just what the word says, repayments of a damage caused. For the sake of argument, if you manage to have bad thoughts without manifesting them in actions however subtle you cannot be punished for them. Surely you see how that's kind of a crazy way to approach stamping out bigoted thinking.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:16
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SaltyJesus posted:Reparations are just what the word says, repayments of a damage caused. For the sake of argument, if you manage to have bad thoughts without manifesting them in actions however subtle you cannot be punished for them. Surely you see how that's kind of a crazy way to approach stamping out bigoted thinking. Sure, but nobody can tell that you have "bad thoughts" in that case. What you're arguing is that only certain expressions of racism be considered bad. khwarezm posted:Draw me a road map as to how these reparations are calculated and distributed. A suitably symbolic amount, say, fifty million euros, a hundred million euros, paid by the EU itself. If you wanted to get fancy you could compartmentalize the payments by proportional population.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:19
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Effectronica posted:Actually, European countries as a whole should pay reparations to other countries for current events, along with the particular reparations necessary for the old colonial powers. Or they could mount a major campaign to stamp out racism, and be able to beg off from having to pay reparations from the substantial depopulation that would ensue. Effectronica posted:How about Europe as a whole being responsible because Europeans as a whole are still pretty racist? Maybe you could critique that instead of a thing you made up for the purpose of it being easy to tear down. Effectronica posted:If you can find a European country where racism against Middle Easterners and North Africans is virtually non-existent, then you can argue that there's no need for reparations from them, on the grounds earlier suggested. But people argued both with historical arguments and with contingent arguments about reparations, and attacking the historical arguments solely is a mark of faulty argumentation. Well, it looks like we're back to the good old days of Laissez's Faire with Marxist-third-worldists advocating the destruction or dismantling of western civilizations not only for (their dead great grandparents) crimes of colonialism, but merely for the self-evident crime of not being part of the global south. Since you have stretched the definition of racism to mean "any way in which European culture makes different demands than MENA culture", you have set up an impossible criterion. Ideological arguments about racism, like any rhetorical tool, can break from overuse or being used in an ill-fitting way.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:20
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Effectronica posted:
Awesome, now where is that money going exactly?
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Sep 27, 2015 21:21
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Presumably the Syrians would be due heavy reparations from the Turks, to make up for 500 years of Ottoman Imperialism?
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Sep 27, 2015 21:21
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Not to mention most of the Balkans.
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Sep 27, 2015 21:23
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Liberal_L33t posted:Well, it looks like we're back to the good old days of Laissez's Faire with Marxist-third-worldists advocating the destruction or dismantling of western civilizations not only for (their dead great grandparents) crimes of colonialism, but merely for the self-evident crime of not being part of the global south. Since you have stretched the definition of racism to mean "any way in which European culture makes different demands than MENA culture", you have set up an impossible criterion. No I haven't. You can't point to that in any of those posts you quoted in your undignified hissy fit. khwarezm posted:Awesome, now where is that money going exactly? It's in gold coins, and they're melted down and poured down the throat of most of the posters in this thread, so that they can share the fate of Crassus. mediadave posted:Presumably the Syrians would be due heavy reparations from the Turks, to make up for 500 years of Ottoman Imperialism? khwarezm posted:Not to mention most of the Balkans. Dunno why you two are talking about historical reparations again, probably it's because you're congenitally dishonest?
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Sep 27, 2015 21:27
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