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Effectronica posted:Sure, but nobody can tell that you have "bad thoughts" in that case. What you're arguing is that only certain expressions of racism be considered bad. Yeah ok, should've phrased that slightly differently. No, all prejudice is bad, period. That said, not all expressions of prejudice cause the same amount of harm. Should black Americans pay reparations to white Americans for cracking honkey jokes? Should the Chinese pay reparations to the Indians for example for all those comments you can read on chinasmack.com? Should those same refugees pay reparations to sub-Saharan Africans, I'm sure you can find plenty of prejudiced ones. That's because everybody is prejudiced in one way or another. Unless you want to water the term down to the point of uselessness racism is a systematic, often institutionalized, injustice perpetrated against a group of people.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:32 |
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# ? Jun 4, 2024 16:49 |
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Effectronica posted:No I haven't. You can't point to that in any of those posts you quoted in your undignified hissy fit. quote:
No seriously though, please don't take your ball and go home, if you feel that reparations can be effectively toted up and distributed to right as many historical wrongs as possible I would like to hear more. Don't read some kind of sinister motivation into my question Effectronica its a topic worthy of discussion and your just bringing it down at the moment. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 27, 2015 |
# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:37 |
SaltyJesus posted:Yeah ok, should've phrased that slightly differently. No, all prejudice is bad, period. That said, not all expressions of prejudice cause the same amount of harm. First of all, I reject utilitarianism and the harm principle. Second of all, if people are unwilling to admit that prejudice is wrong, then it is only just that duly chosen representatives pay reparations. So yes, in the abstract. In the concrete, of course we should start with the bigger injustices, such as Europe wrt to most of the world, Japan wrt to South Korea and China, China wrt to most of its ethnic minorities, etc. because these in turn will turn the world towards acknowledging prejudice as wrong and help eliminate backlash-prejudice. khwarezm posted:
I'm not talking about historical wrongs, idiot. I feel I should put that in 72-point font and put a spotlight in front of it.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:38 |
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Effectronica posted:
Include latter day ones then, doesn't really change my question.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:41 |
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And on that day, Olaf had an epiphany. Knowing that he had finally found a way to right all wrongs, he showed up at the Blood Viking Blood Court of Blood Feuds of Blood, smiled to the Bloody Great Bloodsecrator, and said only one word: "Wergild"
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:42 |
khwarezm posted:Include latter day ones then, doesn't really change my question. You didn't ask a question, apart from some bullshit where you pretended to forget that the subject of conversation was on the Middle East and North Africa, and as such the money would be distributed across those nations, probably not directly paid to the government in the case of Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Egypt. The point, in any case, is the symbolic nature of the act, like with an apology.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:43 |
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my dad posted:And on that day, Olaf had an epiphany. Knowing that he had finally found a way to right all wrongs, he showed up at the Blood Viking Blood Court of Blood Feuds of Blood, smiled to the Bloody Great Bloodsecrator, and said only one word: "Wergild"
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:43 |
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my dad posted:And on that day, Olaf had an epiphany. Knowing that he had finally found a way to right all wrongs, he showed up at the Blood Viking Blood Court of Blood Feuds of Blood, smiled to the Bloody Great Bloodsecrator, and said only one word: "Wergild" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvkvOfm5Vo0
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:44 |
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Effectronica posted:First of all, I reject utilitarianism and the harm principle. Second of all, if people are unwilling to admit that prejudice is wrong, then it is only just that duly chosen representatives pay reparations. So yes, in the abstract. In the concrete, of course we should start with the bigger injustices, such as Europe wrt to most of the world, Japan wrt to South Korea and China, China wrt to most of its ethnic minorities, etc. because these in turn will turn the world towards acknowledging prejudice as wrong and help eliminate backlash-prejudice. Wait, if you're not talking about historical wrongs then why does Japan matter wrt South Korea and China (WWII comfort women and rape of Nanking / unit 731 respectively I presume). Chinese are just as prejudiced against the Japanese as the reverse, ditto South Korea. Also just lol at the Europe part. You see it like this: but honestly most of the Balkans would get to demand reparations from pretty much every loving empire in the neighborhood in the last 2000 years. And not just for historical reasons either, we get to experience all kinds of prejudiced poo poo in the west nowadays too.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:51 |
SaltyJesus posted:Wait, if you're not talking about historical wrongs then why does Japan matter wrt South Korea and China (WWII comfort women and rape of Nanking / unit 731 respectively I presume). Chinese are just as prejudiced against the Japanese as the reverse, ditto South Korea. Japan has extremely harsh immigration laws that are used heavily against South Korean and Chinese migrant workers, and an active political minority that is extremely loud in its hatred of those two countries and their residents. Those are things that happen today.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:52 |
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The Chukchas have missed another racial self-justification payment , time to eliminate those filthy European oppressors.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:55 |
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Western countries are already paying this symbolic fee towards global cooperation and reconciliation, it's called UN contributions, doesn't really help, does it.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 21:57 |
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Effectronica posted:You didn't ask a question, apart from some bullshit where you pretended to forget that the subject of conversation was on the Middle East and North Africa, and as such the money would be distributed across those nations, probably not directly paid to the government in the case of Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Egypt. The point, in any case, is the symbolic nature of the act, like with an apology. Finally, we have done it! The thing is, if the subject of the conversation is North Africa and the Middle East then Europe wide reparations don't make sense, even the most virulent Polish racist has had gently caress all effect on the situation there. Again it goes back to the countries with a history of Colonial activity in the region, ergo Britain, France and Germany in particular. Victims of current day anti-Muslim racism in Eastern Europe are usually Muslims, recent migrants or not, that live there, if Eastern Europe is paying reparations it should be going to them, since they are directly affected by it, not people currently in Algeria or Iraq. And honestly the fact that you thought that simply giving reparations to Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa was good enough implies a problematic belief of homogeneity across the Muslim world.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:02 |
khwarezm posted:Finally, we have done it! The thing is, if the subject of the conversation is North Africa and the Middle East then Europe wide reparations don't make sense, even the most virulent Polish racist has had gently caress all effect on the situation there. Again it goes back to the countries with a history of Colonial activity in the region, ergo Britain, France and Germany in particular. Victims of current day anti-Muslim racism in Eastern Europe are usually Muslims, recent migrants or not, that live there, if Eastern Europe is paying reparations it should be going to them, since they are directly affected by it, not people currently in Algeria or Iraq. And honestly the fact that you thought that simply giving reparations to Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa was good enough implies a problematic belief of homogeneity across the Muslim world. Like I said earlier, I reject the harm principle. In any case, the point is to acknowledge that racism is wrong, rather than actually provide financial assuaging. You've also missed a trick in your smarminess, by not pointing out how I neglected sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, the non-Muslim parts of Asia.. Or maybe you're just suffering from memory problems, and forgot that the subject of discussion was the Middle East and North Africa, instead of being a facile worm of a man.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:06 |
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Do "Syrian" refugees owe different amounts of reparations to each other based on their former ethnic group and amount of atrocities the group has respectively committed or are they all mixed into the single global underprivileged pool? How do the Kurds, who are now unquestionably the least oppressed of the bunch, factor into this - do they owe reparations to ISIS or do they get a free pass? If they get a free pass when does it expire?
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:10 |
Adar posted:Do "Syrian" refugees owe different amounts of reparations to each other based on their former ethnic group and amount of atrocities the group has respectively committed or are they all mixed into the single global underprivileged pool? How do the Kurds, who are now unquestionably the least oppressed of the bunch, factor into this - do they owe reparations to ISIS or do they get a free pass? If they get a free pass when does it expire? Hey, there's no need to conceal your real opinions. Instead of arguing about priorities, just say that reparations are poo poo and why, so that I can know what you really feel. Instead, I'm assuming that you just don't believe in apologizing for things, at the moment.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:12 |
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Effectronica posted:Like I said earlier, I reject the harm principle. In any case, the point is to acknowledge that racism is wrong, rather than actually provide financial assuaging. Ah Gotcha, so its more about looking like you're doing something to rectify racism's consequences, rather than actually doing something to rectify racism's consequences.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:12 |
khwarezm posted:Ah Gotcha, so its more about looking like you're doing something to rectify racism's consequences, rather than actually doing something to rectify racism's consequences. So you don't believe in apologizing when you've done something wrong.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:14 |
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How much do I personally have to pay if I want to dress like KKK and shout racial slurs at minorities? And should I send the money somewhere or just hurl it at the darkies I see?
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:17 |
Puistokemisti posted:How much do I personally have to pay if I want to dress like KKK and shout racial slurs at minorities? And should I send the money somewhere or just hurl it at the darkies I see? What's the going rate for a hitman in Hell Marsh?
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:18 |
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Effectronica posted:So you don't believe in apologizing when you've done something wrong. My family's old home in Lika was burned down by the Ustaše. I couldn't give less of a poo poo about Croatia making a pointless gesture of apology about it, but I'd really like if they'd provide more concrete help to the refugees passing through Croatia today. It doesn't have anything to do with the refugee crisis responsibility, because as far as responsibility goes, Croatia isn't responsible for it in any way, and there are many who really ought to provide orders of magnitude more help because of responsibility than they are now (I'm looking at you, US). It's just the right thing to do. Effectronica, I have no idea what the gently caress you're doing right now, but the closest guess I can make is that you're arguing for the sake of arguing, without an actual goal in mind. Hail Tzeentch.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:21 |
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Effectronica posted:So you don't believe in apologizing when you've done something wrong. I tend to believe that apologies aren't worth much if they aren't backed by serious attempts to rectify the damage. You on the other hand seem to think that the way you deal with Racism against migrants in Eastern Europe is to throw money at random countries 'cause their Muslim even if the racists have had nothing to do with those areas and the victims of their racism wouldn't be helped by such action in the slightest.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:23 |
my dad posted:My family's old home in Lika was burned down by the Ustaše. I couldn't give less of a poo poo about Croatia making a pointless gesture of apology about it, but I'd really like if they'd provide more concrete help to the refugees passing through Croatia today. It doesn't have anything to do with the refugee crisis responsibility, because as far as responsibility goes, Croatia isn't responsible for it in any way, and there are many who really ought to provide orders of magnitude more help because of responsibility than they are now (I'm looking at you, US). So you also don't believe in apologies, and are generalizing this belief to the whole world? I can understand why you wouldn't understand why someone would argue what I'm arguing, then. khwarezm posted:I tend to believe that apologies aren't worth much if they aren't backed by serious attempts to rectify the damage. You on the other hand seem to think that the way you deal with Racism against migrants in Eastern Europe is to throw money at random countries 'cause their Muslim even if the racists have had nothing to do with those areas and the victims of their racism wouldn't be helped by such action in the slightest. I tend to believe that the reduction of human suffering to accounting matters is the mark of an inhuman monster who should be slain instantly, but I'll reign in my desire to bayonet utilitarians for now to point out that a rational human being wouldn't jump to assuming a statement of "this should be done" precludes doing anything else unless they had some overriding belief otherwise. So are you merely an rear end in a top hat, or are you insane? Which is it, "khwarezm"? Effectronica fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:23 |
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my dad posted:Effectronica, I have no idea what the gently caress you're doing right now, but the closest guess I can make is that you're arguing for the sake of arguing, without an actual goal in mind. Hail Tzeentch. It's funnier than finlandchat so hey why not btw do reparations get paid to biracial people and does it matter if they can pass for white?
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:25 |
Adar posted:It's funnier than finlandchat so hey why not Passive-aggressive people should be hung, drawn, and quartered at random pour encourager les autres. You volunteering? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:27 |
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Puistokemisti posted:How much do I personally have to pay if I want to dress like KKK and shout racial slurs at minorities? And should I send the money somewhere or just hurl it at the darkies I see?
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:29 |
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Effectronica posted:First of all, I reject utilitarianism and the harm principle. Second of all, if people are unwilling to admit that prejudice is wrong, then it is only just that duly chosen representatives pay reparations. So yes, in the abstract. In the concrete, of course we should start with the bigger injustices, such as Europe wrt to most of the world, Japan wrt to South Korea and China, China wrt to most of its ethnic minorities, etc. because these in turn will turn the world towards acknowledging prejudice as wrong and help eliminate backlash-prejudice. Wait, wait, wait, I gotta come back to this. Harm wasn't mentioned in the context of utilitarianism but since you seriously agreed to the idea that the US blacks should pay reparations to the US whites and you rejected the idea of relative harm that means Dave Chapelle should pay back the same amount as the descendants of a plantation owner. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 27, 2015 |
# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:30 |
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Effectronica posted:So you also don't believe in apologies, and are generalizing this belief to the whole world? I can understand why you wouldn't understand why someone would argue what I'm arguing, then. I know that symbolic apologies don't work the way you think they do. I've seen people who received only apologies turn to irrational hatred - my grandfather would have been a war criminal had he not retired before the Yugoslav Wars. He had a good reason to hold certain Muslims responsible for something that happened to him as a child, received a symbolic apology from other Muslims that wasn't really worth a drat in the long run, and would have taken out his hatred on other Muslims had he been given a chance to do it. gently caress apologies. Concrete acts of providing genuine help are where it's at. We can certainly argue about what actually provides genuine help, though. It would even be a constructive discussion.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:30 |
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my dad posted:We can certainly argue about what actually provides genuine help, though. It would even be a constructive discussion. Well, it would be until the Finns came back.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:33 |
SaltyJesus posted:Wait, wait, wait, I gotta come back to this. Harm wasn't mentioned in the context of utilitarianism but since you seriously agreed to the idea that the US blacks should pay reparations to the US whites and you rejected the idea of relative harm that means Dave Chapelle should pay back the same amount as the descendants of a plantation owner. Rejecting the idea that harm can be quantified doesn't actually conclude that inherently, and secondly, if the reparations were to be the same size Dave Chapelle would actually have to pay more than the descendants of plantation owners. But of course, you didn't think of that. my dad posted:I know that symbolic apologies don't work the way you think they do. I've seen people who received only apologies turn to irrational hatred - my grandfather would have been a war criminal had he not retired before the Yugoslav Wars. He had a good reason to hold certain Muslims responsible for something that happened to him as a child, received a symbolic apology from other Muslims that wasn't really worth a drat in the long run, and would have taken out his hatred on other Muslims had he been given a chance to do it. gently caress apologies. Concrete acts of providing genuine help are where it's at. We can certainly argue about what actually provides genuine help, though. It would even be a constructive discussion. Okay, go ahead and quantify the amount of concrete help able to make up for racism. In the meantime, I'll stage-whisper that apologies are more about the victimizer admitting to wrongdoing than assuaging harm.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:34 |
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Effectronica posted:Rejecting the idea that harm can be quantified doesn't actually conclude that inherently, and secondly, if the reparations were to be the same size Dave Chapelle would actually have to pay more than the descendants of plantation owners. But of course, you didn't think of that. lmao I used Dave Chapelle as a stand in for black people but if it makes your brain break less instead of "descendants of a slave owner" substitute "owner of a New Jim Crow for-profit prison who lobbies local judges to be 'tougher on crime'"
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:35 |
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just fyi the response to "have you stopped beating your wife yet" is not a long, confused silence followed by going into an ontological debate on the meaning of the word "wife"
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:37 |
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Effectronica posted:
Oh poo poo man you got me with them scare quotes, I confess, my real name isn't Khwarezm at all, how did you know? Reducing human suffering is the whole point, you're just trying to avoid having to admit to your plan's obvious, moronic shortcomings by arguing your heart's in the right place, so it doesn't really matter how dumb your ideas are.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:38 |
SaltyJesus posted:lmao I used Dave Chapelle as a stand in for black people but if it makes your brain break less instead of "descendants of a slave owner" substitute "owner of a New Jim Crow for-profit prison who lobbies local judges to be 'tougher on crime'" No, dumbass, the point is that if the reparations are to be of the same size, then, given that there are fewer black Americans than white Americans, black Americans would have to contribute more proportionately. Requiring the same amount of money from all people would in turn produce smaller reparations from black Americans than from white Americans. You can't even set up a situation that fits your strawman! You're a loving idiot! I think the best part is that I'm talking on the level of national governments, which makes this example invalid in any case, and that I'm talking about reparations as a substitute for people admitting that racism is wrong- if people actually acknowledge prejudice is wrong, there's no need for the reparations in this scheme! All you need to do is repent of the works of your hands and be free of having your government make a symbolic apology for your very existence, Europeans!
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:40 |
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:41 |
Adar posted:just fyi the response to "have you stopped beating your wife yet" is not a long, confused silence followed by going into an ontological debate on the meaning of the word "wife" Sure, but it would be illegal to break a baseball bat over your head, Adar, no matter how righteous an action it would prove. khwarezm posted:Oh poo poo man you got me with them scare quotes, I confess, my real name isn't Khwarezm at all, how did you know? Reducing human suffering is the whole point, you're just trying to avoid having to admit to your plan's obvious, moronic shortcomings by arguing your heart's in the right place, so it doesn't really matter how dumb your ideas are. That's not what I said. Read it all the way through, possibly twice, before responding. Even Adar, much as his death would be a blessing upon humanity, can manage to respond to what people say.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:42 |
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Effectronica posted:Which is it, "khwarezm"? ahaha holy poo poo the scare quotes, best troll of 2015
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:42 |
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Effectronica posted:Like I said earlier, I reject the harm principle. In any case, the point is to acknowledge that racism is wrong, rather than actually provide financial assuaging. You've also missed a trick in your smarminess, by not pointing out how I neglected sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, the non-Muslim parts of Asia.. Effectronica posted:So you also don't believe in apologies, and are generalizing this belief to the whole world? I can understand why you wouldn't understand why someone would argue what I'm arguing, then. Amidst this theatrical display of bloodlust, did you ever get around to acknowledging the point that U.N. (and individual western nations) humanitarian aid funds might qualify as a form of reparations? If you were to closely read the texts of the resolutions mandating the funding of organizations that distribute humanitarian aid, I think you would, in fact, find many references to historical European responsibility for colonialism. Why doesn't this qualify?
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:42 |
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Puistokemisti posted:How much do I personally have to pay if I want to dress like KKK and shout racial slurs at minorities? And should I send the money somewhere or just hurl it at the darkies I see? I offer my services as a Racism Offset Officer. For a modest fee I'll write a stipulated number of Facebook updates promoting my progressive outlook; the racism-credit for these will be transferred to your personal balance sheet, and you'll be able to use the new-found racism deficit to celebrate your Southern heritage without fear of being penalized.
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:42 |
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# ? Jun 4, 2024 16:49 |
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SaltyJesus posted:ahaha holy poo poo the scare quotes, best troll of 2015 'I bet you he's not even a region in central Asia!'
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# ? Sep 27, 2015 22:43 |