Effectronica posted:

Sure, but nobody can tell that you have "bad thoughts" in that case. What you're arguing is that only certain expressions of racism be considered bad.

Effectronica posted:

No I haven't. You can't point to that in any of those posts you quoted in your undignified hissy fit.

quote:

It's in gold coins, and they're melted down and poured down the throat of most of the posters in this thread, so that they can share the fate of Crassus.



Dunno why you two are talking about historical reparations again, probably it's because you're congenitally dishonest?

SaltyJesus posted:

Yeah ok, should've phrased that slightly differently. No, all prejudice is bad, period. That said, not all expressions of prejudice cause the same amount of harm.

Should black Americans pay reparations to white Americans for cracking honkey jokes? Should the Chinese pay reparations to the Indians for example for all those comments you can read on chinasmack.com? Should those same refugees pay reparations to sub-Saharan Africans, I'm sure you can find plenty of prejudiced ones. That's because everybody is prejudiced in one way or another. Unless you want to water the term down to the point of uselessness racism is a systematic, often institutionalized, injustice perpetrated against a group of people.

khwarezm posted:

No seriously though, please don't take your ball and go home, if you feel that reparations can be effectively toted up and distributed to right as many historical wrongs as possible I would like to hear more.

Effectronica posted:

I'm not talking about historical wrongs, idiot. I feel I should put that in 72-point font and put a spotlight in front of it.

khwarezm posted:

Include latter day ones then, doesn't really change my question.

my dad posted:

And on that day, Olaf had an epiphany. Knowing that he had finally found a way to right all wrongs, he showed up at the Blood Viking Blood Court of Blood Feuds of Blood, smiled to the Bloody Great Bloodsecrator, and said only one word: "Wergild"

my dad posted:

And on that day, Olaf had an epiphany. Knowing that he had finally found a way to right all wrongs, he showed up at the Blood Viking Blood Court of Blood Feuds of Blood, smiled to the Bloody Great Bloodsecrator, and said only one word: "Wergild"

Effectronica posted:

First of all, I reject utilitarianism and the harm principle. Second of all, if people are unwilling to admit that prejudice is wrong, then it is only just that duly chosen representatives pay reparations. So yes, in the abstract. In the concrete, of course we should start with the bigger injustices, such as Europe wrt to most of the world, Japan wrt to South Korea and China, China wrt to most of its ethnic minorities, etc. because these in turn will turn the world towards acknowledging prejudice as wrong and help eliminate backlash-prejudice.


I'm not talking about historical wrongs, idiot. I feel I should put that in 72-point font and put a spotlight in front of it.

SaltyJesus posted:

Wait, if you're not talking about historical wrongs then why does Japan matter wrt South Korea and China (WWII comfort women and rape of Nanking / unit 731 respectively I presume). Chinese are just as prejudiced against the Japanese as the reverse, ditto South Korea.

Also just lol at the Europe part. You see it like this:

but honestly most of the Balkans would get to demand reparations from pretty much every loving empire in the neighborhood in the last 2000 years. And not just for historical reasons either, we get to experience all kinds of prejudiced poo poo in the west nowadays too.

Effectronica posted:

You didn't ask a question, apart from some bullshit where you pretended to forget that the subject of conversation was on the Middle East and North Africa, and as such the money would be distributed across those nations, probably not directly paid to the government in the case of Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Egypt. The point, in any case, is the symbolic nature of the act, like with an apology.

khwarezm posted:

Finally, we have done it! The thing is, if the subject of the conversation is North Africa and the Middle East then Europe wide reparations don't make sense, even the most virulent Polish racist has had gently caress all effect on the situation there. Again it goes back to the countries with a history of Colonial activity in the region, ergo Britain, France and Germany in particular. Victims of current day anti-Muslim racism in Eastern Europe are usually Muslims, recent migrants or not, that live there, if Eastern Europe is paying reparations it should be going to them, since they are directly affected by it, not people currently in Algeria or Iraq. And honestly the fact that you thought that simply giving reparations to Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa was good enough implies a problematic belief of homogeneity across the Muslim world.

Adar posted:

Do "Syrian" refugees owe different amounts of reparations to each other based on their former ethnic group and amount of atrocities the group has respectively committed or are they all mixed into the single global underprivileged pool? How do the Kurds, who are now unquestionably the least oppressed of the bunch, factor into this - do they owe reparations to ISIS or do they get a free pass? If they get a free pass when does it expire?

Effectronica posted:

Like I said earlier, I reject the harm principle. In any case, the point is to acknowledge that racism is wrong, rather than actually provide financial assuaging.

khwarezm posted:

Ah Gotcha, so its more about looking like you're doing something to rectify racism's consequences, rather than actually doing something to rectify racism's consequences.

Puistokemisti posted:

How much do I personally have to pay if I want to dress like KKK and shout racial slurs at minorities? And should I send the money somewhere or just hurl it at the darkies I see?

Effectronica posted:

So you don't believe in apologizing when you've done something wrong.

Effectronica posted:

So you don't believe in apologizing when you've done something wrong.

my dad posted:

My family's old home in Lika was burned down by the Ustaše. I couldn't give less of a poo poo about Croatia making a pointless gesture of apology about it, but I'd really like if they'd provide more concrete help to the refugees passing through Croatia today. It doesn't have anything to do with the refugee crisis responsibility, because as far as responsibility goes, Croatia isn't responsible for it in any way, and there are many who really ought to provide orders of magnitude more help because of responsibility than they are now (I'm looking at you, US).

Effectronica, I have no idea what the gently caress you're doing right now, but the closest guess I can make is that you're arguing for the sake of arguing, without an actual goal in mind. Hail Tzeench.

khwarezm posted:

I tend to believe that apologies aren't worth much if they aren't backed by serious attempts to rectify the damage. You on the other hand seem to think that the way you deal with Racism against migrants in Eastern Europe is to throw money at random countries 'cause their Muslim even if the racists have had nothing to do with those areas and the victims of their racism wouldn't be helped by such action in the slightest.

my dad posted:

Effectronica, I have no idea what the gently caress you're doing right now, but the closest guess I can make is that you're arguing for the sake of arguing, without an actual goal in mind. Hail Tzeentch.

Adar posted:

It's funnier than finlandchat so hey why not

btw do reparations get paid to biracial people and does it matter if they can pass for white?

Puistokemisti posted:

How much do I personally have to pay if I want to dress like KKK and shout racial slurs at minorities? And should I send the money somewhere or just hurl it at the darkies I see?

Effectronica posted:

First of all, I reject utilitarianism and the harm principle. Second of all, if people are unwilling to admit that prejudice is wrong, then it is only just that duly chosen representatives pay reparations. So yes, in the abstract. In the concrete, of course we should start with the bigger injustices, such as Europe wrt to most of the world, Japan wrt to South Korea and China, China wrt to most of its ethnic minorities, etc. because these in turn will turn the world towards acknowledging prejudice as wrong and help eliminate backlash-prejudice.


I'm not talking about historical wrongs, idiot. I feel I should put that in 72-point font and put a spotlight in front of it.

Effectronica posted:

So you also don't believe in apologies, and are generalizing this belief to the whole world? I can understand why you wouldn't understand why someone would argue what I'm arguing, then.

my dad posted:

We can certainly argue about what actually provides genuine help, though. It would even be a constructive discussion.

SaltyJesus posted:

Wait, wait, wait, I gotta come back to this. Harm wasn't mentioned in the context of utilitarianism but since you seriously agreed to the idea that the US blacks should pay reparations to the US whites and you rejected the idea of relative harm that means Dave Chapelle should pay back the same amount as the descendants of a plantation owner.

my dad posted:

I know that symbolic apologies don't work the way you think they do. I've seen people who received only apologies turn to irrational hatred - my grandfather would have been a war criminal had he not retired before the Yugoslav Wars. He had a good reason to hold certain Muslims responsible for something that happened to him as a child, received a symbolic apology from other Muslims that wasn't really worth a drat in the long run, and would have taken out his hatred on other Muslims had he been given a chance to do it. gently caress apologies. Concrete acts of providing genuine help are where it's at. We can certainly argue about what actually provides genuine help, though. It would even be a constructive discussion.

Effectronica posted:

Rejecting the idea that harm can be quantified doesn't actually conclude that inherently, and secondly, if the reparations were to be the same size Dave Chapelle would actually have to pay more than the descendants of plantation owners. But of course, you didn't think of that.

Effectronica posted:

I tend to believe that the reduction of human suffering to accounting matters is the mark of an inhuman monster who should be slain instantly, but I'll reign in my desire to bayonet utilitarians for now to point out that a rational human being wouldn't jump to assuming a statement of "this should be done" precludes doing anything else unless they had some overriding belief otherwise. So are you merely an rear end in a top hat, or are you insane? Which is it, "khwarezm"?

SaltyJesus posted:

lmao I used Dave Chapelle as a stand in for black people but if it makes your brain break less instead of "descendants of a slave owner" substitute "owner of a New Jim Crow for-profit prison who lobbies local judges to be 'tougher on crime'"

Venom Snake posted:

Adar posted:

just fyi the response to "have you stopped beating your wife yet" is not a long, confused silence followed by going into an ontological debate on the meaning of the word "wife"

khwarezm posted:

Oh poo poo man you got me with them scare quotes, I confess, my real name isn't Khwarezm at all, how did you know? Reducing human suffering is the whole point, you're just trying to avoid having to admit to your plan's obvious, moronic shortcomings by arguing your heart's in the right place, so it doesn't really matter how dumb your ideas are.

Effectronica posted:

Which is it, "khwarezm"?

Effectronica posted:

Like I said earlier, I reject the harm principle. In any case, the point is to acknowledge that racism is wrong, rather than actually provide financial assuaging. You've also missed a trick in your smarminess, by not pointing out how I neglected sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, the non-Muslim parts of Asia..

Or maybe you're just suffering from memory problems, and forgot that the subject of discussion was the Middle East and North Africa, instead of being a facile worm of a man.

Effectronica posted:

So you also don't believe in apologies, and are generalizing this belief to the whole world? I can understand why you wouldn't understand why someone would argue what I'm arguing, then.


I tend to believe that the reduction of human suffering to accounting matters is the mark of an inhuman monster who should be slain instantly, but I'll reign in my desire to bayonet utilitarians for now to point out that a rational human being wouldn't jump to assuming a statement of "this should be done" precludes doing anything else unless they had some overriding belief otherwise. So are you merely an rear end in a top hat, or are you insane? Which is it, "khwarezm"?

Puistokemisti posted:

How much do I personally have to pay if I want to dress like KKK and shout racial slurs at minorities? And should I send the money somewhere or just hurl it at the darkies I see?

SaltyJesus posted:

ahaha holy poo poo the scare quotes, best troll of 2015