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So, uh, to get away from this dumb poo poo, dan carlin released a podcast dealing with immigration, with the basic point being that its not historically unprecedented for this sort of thing to happen, and chucking a hissy fit over it isn't a good idea. But hissy fits are being chucked, and you've got to wonder if the European self-image, as opposed to the American self-image, is going to push that. I would talk about how that might be because the US is a colonial nation and Europe isn't, but the same logic doesn't apply to Australia. Anyone here familiar with how Latin American countries deal with immigrant integration?
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Sep 28, 2015 12:06
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rudatron posted:
Well, first off America went through this same poo poo in the 80s (the reason why Reagan did Amnesty for certain immigrants is as a compromise to chucking the other refugees out). Mexico had very similar things happen at the same time period, and much like Europe they "didn't have anything to do" with the reason for the refugees.
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Sep 28, 2015 12:14
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rudatron posted:So, uh, to get away from this dumb poo poo, dan carlin released a podcast dealing with immigration, with the basic point being that its not historically unprecedented for this sort of thing to happen, and chucking a hissy fit over it isn't a good idea. These hissy fit throwers are an pathetic whiny minority who don't have much of a power besides a select xenophobic unimportant holdouts. If they can bring down an unified EU response to this then EU has no hope in anything. And they can't, if all the past decisions EU has pushed through are any indication.
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Sep 28, 2015 13:10
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Is >10 % of the votes a pathetic minority? This in in regards to parties like SD, UKIP etc. It is a growing tendency in Europe.
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Sep 28, 2015 14:34
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Mordekai posted:Is >10 % of the votes a pathetic minority? This in in regards to parties like SD, UKIP etc. It is a growing tendency in Europe. You will find out, if you take it up with the pro- "asylum seeking" personnel, that nothing short of a 50%+ majority is supposedly of no consequence. You can have the third or second or even the largest party in a country like SD is right now in Sweden, with very strict views on asylum seeking? They'll make smug faces at their computers, telling you and themselves that it doesn't matter in the least because democracy and the Party of Evil still isn't forming the government alone *smugface* That said, the people who, like, demonstrate against asylum seekers, wear costumes and tape stickers with "immigrants go home" slogans really are a tiny bunch.
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Sep 28, 2015 14:46
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Mordekai posted:Is >10 % of the votes a pathetic minority? This in in regards to parties like SD, UKIP etc. It is a growing tendency in Europe. Pretty much in the grand scale of things, yeah. I mean this is basically the nightmare scenario every anti-immigrant party has been warning about and...the world isn't ending. Europe is actually responding. Only few sad countries even stand against any of this. And the response from the nativists has been basically just ridiculed around the world. Droves of Europeans aren't flying into the arms of extremists. And every time one of these parties actually get into a position where they have to govern and cooperate, they crack. They can't possibly deliver all they want so their rabid supporters get mad. Governing is poison to populists. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 14:48
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DarkCrawler posted:Pretty much in the grand scale of things, yeah. I mean this is basically the nightmare scenario every anti-immigrant party has been warning about and...the world isn't ending. Europe is actually responding. Only few countries even stand against any of this. And the response from the nativists has been basically just ridiculed around the world. Droves of Europeans aren't flying into the arms of extremists. And every time one of these parties actually get into a position where they have to govern and cooperate, they crack. They can't possibly deliver all they want so their rabid supporters get mad. Governing is poison to populists. The world ain't gonna "end". You could airlift 500 million Africans to Europe to seek asylum without anything ending or completely vanishing, like being sucked into a black hole. We'd just have a whole lot different Europe after that, like, much of Africa is right now. I would not find this an acceptable price for your average European to pay. (Incidentally Africa would still be a mess if we took in half a billion immigrants, which of course won't happen, but Europe would also be a mess at that point, which finely illustrates how irrational trying to fix countries by moving population from there to Europe is.) Also. I see the the Americans (?) have taken their "but teh West is responsible for colonialism, USA, USA½!" thing here as if that somehow explains why we should be liberal with asylum seekers. No European alive sure as hell is responsible for anything that went down 100 or 200 years ago. They were not alive back then. Your average European taxpayer has done nothing to Middle-Eastern or African countries or the people who live there. They don't owe some dude who belongs to this and this ethnic group who are fighting that militia and that other group in some country 3000 miles away anything. That said if someone is under an immediate personal threat we can house and feed them and give them basic healthcare and send kids to school sure, but there is no responsibility for any EU country to start funding anyone a Western lifestyle if they have no skills that are marketable in Europe (find work and go to work, by all means). On this note, Africa also receives something to the tune of 47,600 million as foreign aid, a year. By 2007, the West had spent $2.3 trillion in foreign aid over the past five decades. So even if "the West" collectively owes someone something, I think it would be safe to say we did pay back. Actually, that's so much money my mind cannot comprehend it.  For those who are going to take exception to the idea any EU country is funding anyone with anything, for example in Finland any asylum seeker who gets a residence permit is entitled to the same welfare benefits Finns who have worked here all their lives are entitled to. For a family of five, that's a lot of money. In Finland, in the larger cities where most asylum seekers eventually end up much if it is housing, you can easily drop in 1,200€/month to an apartment social services deem large enough for a family of five. Or more. You also get around 1700€/month in cash at that point after the rent just to cover your basic expenses. Really, even after our high prices, for someone who is used to Middle-East wages, much less African one's, in cities with bad infra and open sewers instead of the government provided well cared housing you get here that's a "Western lifestyle" already. edit: I actually read a report from a Dutch think thank back in 2007 or 2008 where they calculated that economically, in most West European countries a family of five will do better with both parents unemployed than a family of five with both parents working in North Africa, for example. They concluded that, knowing this, it's baffling many more families do not try migrating to EU countries. (Back in 2007 asylum seekers probably didn't know this, but in this age of social media and where human smuggling has grown to a multibillion business, you can safely bet they do.) Ligur fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 15:09
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Let's not sway this into the opposite extreme of historical revisionism, that is saying that Europe was completely separated from the Middle East since some arbitrary point in time. European countries were definitely involved in the Suez crisis, the Iranian coup of 1953, the Algiers, Gaddafi's Libya, in forming the intellectual leaders who created the Ba'athist movement etc. It's just that it's an equation with many uncertain variables, and time spent on trying to weight blame and responsibility based on this fuzzy political algebra is time not spent on figuring out how to best serve the spirit of international law in this. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 15:21
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Ligur posted:The world ain't gonna "end". You could airlift 500 million Africans to Europe to seek asylum without anything ending or completely vanishing, like being sucked into a black hole. We'd just have a whole lot different Europe after that, like, much of Africa is right now. I would not find this an acceptable price for your average European to pay. What I meant to say is that the anti-immigrant anti-refugee side has been painting these horrible scenarios since the European Union even existed, and it isn't happening. So the side can't really get more then the panicked hysterics in countries that have already been pretty much as anti-immigrant as Europe can generally get, and these countries are small and unimportant. All the actual serious parties and the vast majority of European population that votes for them seems to understand that you can't just close the borders, cut off our ties with the international community and not follow legislation the European countries themselves had instrumental part in crafting and have been nagging the world to follow for decades. Ligur posted:On this note, Africa also receives something to the tune of 47,600 million as foreign aid, a year. By 2007, the West had spent $2.3 trillion in foreign aid over the past five decades. So even if "the West" collectively owes someone something, I think it would be safe to say we did pay back. You don't really want to go there. 2.3. trillion wouldn't even cover the down payment on the debt the British owe to India alone. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-33618621 https://blast-from-indias-past.quora.com/Colonial-Damage-in-Numbers
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Sep 28, 2015 15:51
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steinrokkan posted:Let's not sway this into the opposite extreme of historical revisionism, that is saying that Europe was completely separated from the Middle East since some arbitrary point in time. European countries were definitely involved in the Suez crisis, the Iranian coup of 1953, the Algiers, Gaddafi's Libya, in forming the intellectual leaders who created the Ba'athist movement etc. I'm not saying they were not, I'm just saying your average European taxpayer has nothing to do with Middle-Eastern conflicts and nobody should be able to go to his or her pockets saying we must now take the money we tax from you, taxes went up this year again by the way, to fund the asylum seekers coming here from countries far a way through half the safe known world, because they heard their asylum application is most likely to get a positive and the daily benefits in your country are better than the ones before, to boot, thanks bye. Talking about colonialism in this context is even more far fetched. Sure people have and will always move from one corner of the world to another when the another corner seems or actually is much more affluent. That said the people on the receiving end should also have a say in this, and right now how the asylum process is run in especially Nordic countries we have little say on the matter, while some asylum seekers have a little too many rights. For example as long as Finland let's in people from the safe country, Sweden, and they are from Iraq or Somalia and we don't have a return policy with either, we're just sort of forced to let them stay even if they can't prove they are actual refugees in any concrete manner. Last year some 800 Iraqis applied for asylum in Finland and 120 were given one. 140 got a negative. There were some 200 Dublin cases, so some countries still register asylum seekers but if those were either Greece or Italy it is doubtful they were returned. What about the rest? They didn't get asylum, but they got to stay anyway for some secondary reason. (Also there is no statistics what happened to negatives. Finland can't really return them to Iraq whatever happens to their application, so?) The whole thing is a charade anyway, because when they are interviewed they are almost certainly lying already when talking about the route they used. Nobody falls into a ditch in Mosul and accidentally ends up in Finland having traveled the route blind folded. So what else is a Pumpkin Coach tale? DarkCrawler posted:You don't really want to go there. 2.3. trillion wouldn't even cover the down payment on the debt the British owe to India alone. The Brits drinking Guinness today have not done anything horrible to India. Ligur fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 15:51
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Oddly enough, the historical accounting of grievances and assigning collective guilt is a fun past-time of both conservative revanchists and self-hating liberals. Why? I don't think it's because they're similar, but the shared assumption is the inescapability of identity, and the implied responsibility that comes with that. Interesting to think about.DarkCrawler posted:Pretty much in the grand scale of things, yeah. I mean this is basically the nightmare scenario every anti-immigrant party has been warning about and...the world isn't ending. Europe is actually responding. Only few sad countries even stand against any of this. And the response from the nativists has been basically just ridiculed around the world. Droves of Europeans aren't flying into the arms of extremists. And every time one of these parties actually get into a position where they have to govern and cooperate, they crack. They can't possibly deliver all they want so their rabid supporters get mad. Governing is poison to populists. The best thing about this crisis happening now though is the existence of the internet and social media, which seems a little superficial to say, but I still think it's true. Yugoslav war ethnic cleansing, god forbid we should ever get there, is going to get a massive coverage. That changes the political calculus, and I think if anything's going to foil the far-right, it'll be that. rudatron fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 15:53
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I think Effectronica should pay us all reparations for his bad posting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 28, 2015 15:54
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rudatron posted:Ahh, careful there: the crisis isn't over yet, and neither is the reaction to the crisis. Europe has yet to actually formally 'deal' with the problem, and if you're think there's not going to be some serious buck-passing happening, boy are you in for a show! I'm not so certain of any outcome, I think it's been a massive boost to the far-right and that's got some serious problems brewing, in particular because there's no far-left to speak out to act as a foil. I'd agree with your delivery-failure point, with the provision that this doesn't necessarily deescalate the situation. I expected the first reaction to be about a million times worse then what is happening now. I'm actually positively surprised that we've managed to get this much in motion. Social media and fast spread of news is indeed poison to the anti-refugee side because it simultaneously showcases their ideology together with reality elsewhere on the world and so puts their hysterical whining in its actual perspective. For those who follow them enough it showcases the historical realities behind refugees and also shows their hypocritical whining too. 
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Sep 28, 2015 15:57
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My good friend is a german who've been living in Florida for many years. He doesn't like Florida but now says he can't return to Germany because it's been totally invaded by muslims and the governments in europe are going to spend all money on refugees as european economies crumble under the weight of the unemployed muslim hoards. So, he went back to Florida...  Why do people think this is some massive invasion that will result in the genocide of european peoples?
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Sep 28, 2015 16:01
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DarkCrawler posted:I expected the first reaction to be about a million times worse then what is happening now. I'm actually positively surprised that we've managed to get this much in motion. You have posted about the great success of multiculturalism and your other idealist views a lot as of late but I'm sorry to say many people don't 1) view the world like you 2) do not make the same conclusions about stuff they read on the news you make People who view with suspicions the claim that asylum seekers are an economic boom, or that their mere existence somehow multiculturally enriches us, tend not to be happily surprised when news arrive from all directions that 1000 seekers cross the Swedish border every day, or something, nor do they leap in air with joy as more southern countries who were recently welcoming are starting to close borders as the tides are simply too overwhelming. They get worried instead. Perhaps, when you read that, you spring in the air, hooting in joy as the multicultural experiment now surely brings us even more Great Success. But the anti-asylum seeking person makes other conclusions, like "poo poo, this will become expensive, and we're already in recession" and the anti-multiculturalist will remember all the times a formerly multiculti powerful politician has announced that the experiment failed, and so on.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:08
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Baronjutter posted:My good friend is a german who've been living in Florida for many years. He doesn't like Florida but now says he can't return to Germany because it's been totally invaded by muslims and the governments in europe are going to spend all money on refugees as european economies crumble under the weight of the unemployed muslim hoards. So, he went back to Florida... Some people think that, this is because they have no understanding of the situation or the multitude of realities involved in it. Their understanding of world relations is still stuck to the level where they believe every country is an island instead of an interconnected part of a massive web of political, economic and ideological links and you can't just ignore your responsibilities and bury your head in the sand when things get difficult. These same people are usually afraid of everything foreign and different, especially if it is *gasp* Muslim different. All of this combined with inclination for panicking, hyperbole and hysteria, and a natural tendency to see the world in black and white, results into the wonderful folks from Europe who have been making the news for the past few things. Don't worry, they can't actually achieve anything when they actually get into somewhere to achieve something. Ligur posted:You have posted about the great success of multiculturalism and your other idealist views a lot as of late but I'm sorry to say many people don't I know many people don't view the world like me, but they are empirically wrong, and they are also losing because the rest of the world operate on necessary realities and not overblown hysterics. You see how I'm not worried because of that, right? I don't pretend these people don't exist or that the current situation doesn't make them mad, I just...don't care.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:12
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DarkCrawler posted:Droves of Europeans aren't flying into the arms of extremists.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:12
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DarkCrawler posted:I know many people don't view the world like me, but they are empirically wrong, and they are also losing because the rest of the world operate on necessary realities and not overblown hysterics. You see how I'm not worried because of that, right? I don't pretend these people don't exist or that the current situation doesn't make them mad, I just...don't care. It must be comforting to know that you are Right about everything, while anyone who disagrees is simply Wrong. Especially when we're not talking about something like math, or how to build a sturdy roof, but stuff that pretty much happens on an ideological level.... kinda like I assume religious people feel. I don't remember if I know anything about your age, but I assure you as your 20th birthday slowly becomes further and further a thing in the past, the world will, indeed, become much less black and white.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:17
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LemonDrizzle posted:Wait, what? There's a very real possibility that the Front Nationale will beat the socialists into third place in the coming French elections and a "we are totally not Nazis, honest, the fact that our logo looks like a Swastika is just a coincidence" party is in third place in Greece. If you don't think that extremists are picking up support and pulling the positions of establishment parties well to the right on issues of immigration and culture then I just don't know what to say to you. "Third place in Greece" means a whopping seven percent of the votes. Inconsequential, especially when no party would ever consider inviting them to a coalition. FN is the only one with any sort of quantifiable support on a scale that matters (20-25% if we go by second rounds?) and all that means is that they still have no chance of winning presidential elections any time soon, which in France's system is the key. France is tied into EU on so many levels that they couldn't accomplish pretty much anything they've proposed if they ever actually got to govern either way. Ligur posted:It must be comforting to know that you are Right about everything, while anyone who disagrees is simply Wrong. Especially when we're not talking about something like math, or how to build a sturdy roof, but stuff that pretty much happens on an ideological level.... kinda like I assume religious people feel. I place my ideology on facts, statistics and historical realities freely observable to anyone and when questioned on it am more then willing to provide all of the material which allowed me to get to my conclusion. It is not my fault if most people on the other side of the argument aren't willing to even engage them. I'm right and I can prove it, they're wrong and I can prove it too. It's been pretty clear in this thread that the anti-refugee side has nothing but hyperbole and hypocrisy to offer. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 16:26
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I'd like to point out that Frau Merkel is in the European People's Party, which is one of the rightmost (is that the right word?) european political parties we have. Considering that I very much doubt there's going to be a sudden radical change in refugee policy any time soon.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:34
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Are you seriously calling the German Christian democrats a super-right party? lol The EPP is just a voting bloc, and it's the largest voting bloc by far on the right, which aggregates pretty much all the economically liberal representatives. So technically it's "one of the rightmost parties in the EP", but only because the other right wing parties are either small or bonkers. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 16:36
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Our (center)right-wing is tied to the wealthy among us, and closed borders are just as much poison to capitalism as it is to tree-hugging SJW people-embracing liberals.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:37
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DarkCrawler posted:"Third place in Greece" means a whopping seven percent of the votes. Inconsequential, especially when no party would ever consider inviting them to a coalition. Hasn't the FN alternated between 2nd and 3rd place consistently over the last decade or so? i recall old man Le Pen actually made it to the second round of a presidential election in the early 00s.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:38
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steinrokkan posted:Are you seriously calling the German Christian democrats a super-right party? lol No, that is not what I said. You seem to have gotten it in your edit.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:40
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TheIllestVillain posted:Hasn't the FN alternated between 2nd and 3rd place consistently over the last decade or so? i recall old man Le Pen actually made it to the second round of a presidential election in the early 00s. Yes, and got 17.8% of the vote. Less then two percent more then he had in the first round and about the same her daughter got in first round of 2012. FN has had its hardcore for some time. It has had to soften, not grow more extreme to be able to broaden its base.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:43
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DarkCrawler posted:I place my ideology on facts, statistics and historical realities freely observable to anyone and when questioned on it am more then willing to provide all of the material which allowed me to get to my conclusion. It is not my fault if most people on the other side of the argument aren't willing to even engage them. I'm right and I can prove it, they're wrong and I can prove it too. It's been pretty clear in this thread that the anti-refugee side has nothing but hyperbole and hypocrisy to offer. Ehm. I think we're both one of the very few posters in the whole thread who bother with actual statistic and stuff to begin with, and I even though I'm not very supportive towards the current migration wave, I've been supporting my posts where I make claims with pretty solid links? Also, people come to different conclusions based on the same data. I think you said that we are a superior multicultural success of great happy. I don't think so when some immigrant groups have employment percentages in the 15% despite they've had a long presence in the country and high crime statistics to boot. So yeah these groups are not at a war against society or clashing with other ethnicities or what's normal in your average Muslim country surrounding Europe, but to call their assimilation a success is far fetched in my opinion. Your disagreements with me seem to be of this sort. Or you take exception when I say something like "most (more than 50%) of the people crossing Mediterranean are Sub-Saharan Africans" when it's actually only 40% or something... To me that's a slight variation in tone, and the point still holds that Syrians make only a portion (and often quite small) of the asylum seekers who arrive to Europe, to you it "proves" my argument was completely wrong in the first place and holds no merit. But most people ain't quite black & white like that. You're pretty hyperbolic yourself to be honest. Again, what is you hypocritic and what isn't is an opinion. What you are saying here is that your opinions are better and right. I'm sure most of us often feel like that, yeah, but you haven taken to holding your opinions final cosmic truths in the throes some sort of messianic trip.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:45
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Truga posted:No, that is not what I said. You seem to have gotten it in your edit. I'd say that since people like Cameron founded the European Conservatives and Reformists bloc so they could preach xenophobia and anti-integration with impunity, and extremists like Farage have their own little clubs, the EPP is a fairly balanced faction which can be expected to approach the problem responsibly. Do not forget that the Commission currently in session is a coalition of the EPP with the SocDem and LibDem parties. I mean, look at the ECR alliance membership, all the major reactionary parties are in there, except for the National Front, which is in one of the aforementioned clubs for special needs EMPs. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 16:49
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Ligur posted:You have posted about the great success of multiculturalism and your other idealist views a lot as of late but I'm sorry to say many people don't Anyone else see the irony of a Finnish person acting like they view the world better than the people who don't live in the isolationist country? And to address the last post you made to me (when I said that someone PMed me to say you weren't racist but 'really loving stupid on race': Ligur posted:It's true in the sense I don't think everything is about race. Again, I think you're misreading the English here. They weren't saying they disagree with your policy on race, they were suggesting you understand race as well as a donkey understands Laplacian operators. This isn't a moral failing so much as, as mentioned in the previous bit of the current post, you live in an isolationist country, you have never experienced 'multiculturalism' in anything but the sense of 'literally 1 person in our country is from a different culture therefore we're multicultural' which, while is undeniably true, misses the point. I am aware that you have more than one, but comparatively your nation is one of the most homogeneous countries in the world. You are correct on one thing, that not everything is about race. But to act like it's not about race in this instance? Your lack of diversity of media is showing. Watch any British media with vox pops and you'll find plenty of people saying xenophobic poo poo out the wazoo, if not outright quoting pre-WW2 rhetoric but with 'Muslim' replacing 'Jew.'
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Sep 28, 2015 16:55
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DarkCrawler posted:I place my ideology on facts, statistics and historical realities freely observable to anyone and when questioned on it am more then willing to provide all of the material which allowed me to get to my conclusion. It is not my fault if most people on the other side of the argument aren't willing to even engage them. I'm right and I can prove it, they're wrong and I can prove it too. It's been pretty clear in this thread that the anti-refugee side has nothing but hyperbole and hypocrisy to offer. Finally! The great political questions of human history have been answered, in twenty-fifteen of all years, by Something Awful Forums poster DarkCrawler! I mostly agree with you and I don't even post here but Jesus Christ you make me want to close all the borders and bomb some foreigners.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:57
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Strategic Tea posted:I mostly agree with you and I don't even post here but Jesus Christ you make me want to close all the borders and bomb some foreigners. Jesus Christ would not appreciate such murderous intent upon our fellow men. Show the open hand of peace, brother.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:02
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Tesseraction posted:Anyone else see the irony of a Finnish person acting like they view the world better than the people who don't live in the isolationist country? Me and DarkCrawler both live in Finland. quote:Again, I think you're misreading the English here. They weren't saying they disagree with your policy on race, they were suggesting you understand race as well as a donkey understands Laplacian operators. This isn't a moral failing so much as, as mentioned in the previous bit of the current post, you live in an isolationist country, you have never experienced 'multiculturalism' in anything but the sense of 'literally 1 person in our country is from a different culture therefore we're multicultural' which, while is undeniably true, misses the point. I am aware that you have more than one, but comparatively your nation is one of the most homogeneous countries in the world. Finland, especially Helsinki, are probably not quite as isolated from the world as you seem to think. Anyway like I said before, I have two jobs, in the other most of my colleagues are not even Finns (Asians are probably the largest group) and we mostly do business for parties outside of Finland, and the other one also has more immigrants than your Helsinki average gig, and many of them originating from Africa or related to people who originally came in as asylum seekers. So I dunno. I don't feel very isolated from the world at least. poo poo it feels almost impossible to isolate yourself from the world if you live in any dense western Urban area these days. Yeah most of the time in Finland poo poo is handled like it usually is in Finland, but I'm not sure if that counts as not being multicultural at all. That said, multiculturalism is just a political view, a ism and idea among others, I must remind you, it can actually mean different things to different people and there is plenty of interpretation involved. (DarkCrawler dismissed this by proclaiming his one is the only correct one, and everyone else is wrong if they see any fault at such a policy, FYI.) About that box pop thing, In D&D, you could often just replace "Muslims" with "right-wingers" to get the same sort of content 
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Sep 28, 2015 17:11
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Ligur posted:Ehm. I think we're both one of the very few posters in the whole thread who bother with actual statistic and stuff to begin with, and I even though I'm not very supportive towards the current migration wave, I've been supporting my posts where I make claims with pretty solid links? Yes and one of those conclusions is in fact wrong if it can be proven to be so. When I see a conclusion that is empirically wrong I prove it with data. Ligur posted:I think you said that we are a superior multicultural success of great happy. I said that compared to nearly any other time or place in history or really, just 50 years ago, we are a success. That is a fact, not an opinion. Ligur posted:I don't think so when some immigrant groups have employment percentages in the 15% despite they've had a long presence in the country and high crime statistics to boot. So yeah these groups are not at a war against society or clashing with other ethnicities or what's normal in your average Muslim country surrounding Europe, but to call their assimilation a success is far fetched in my opinion. Did I say they in particular have assimilated well, or that most immigrants assimilate well? To call the whole concept of multiculturalism false because some anti-multiculturalist groups, foreign or homegrown, have failed to integrate is a falsehood. A fact, not an opinion. Ligur posted:Your disagreements with me seem to be of this sort. Or you take exception when I say something like "most (more than 50%) of the people crossing Mediterranean are Sub-Saharan Africans" when it's actually only 40% or something... To me that's a slight variation in tone, and the point still holds that Syrians make only a portion (and often quite small) of the asylum seekers who arrive to Europe, to you it "proves" my argument was completely wrong in the first place and holds no merit. But most people ain't quite black & white like that. You don't get to be pissy when you justify an argument with a lie. Just accept that you were ignorant enough of the situation to spout off something unfounded and stop having a grudge over it. There is nothing more black and white then the real number VS an a false number. You were wrong, I were right. You'll notice in that debate I never did claim that I was right about anything else then the facts involved. It wasn't nowhere near 40% btw and is even farther now. Facts!  http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php Ligur posted:You're pretty hyperbolic yourself to be honest. Point out one statement that is hyperbole. Ligur posted:Again, what is you hypocritic and what isn't is an opinion. What you are saying here is that your opinions are better and right. I'm sure most of us often feel like that, yeah, but you haven taken to holding your opinions final cosmic truths in the throes some sort of messianic trip. Creating laws, benefiting from laws and hectoring others to support them only to ignore them yourself is hypocritical, that is also a fact, and not an opinion. Strategic Tea posted:Finally! The great political questions of human history have been answered, in twenty-fifteen of all years, by Something Awful Forums poster DarkCrawler! Did I say I'm right on every issue or this issue? Generally, when I debate any issue I prove my statements with facts and continue to believe said facts until someone actually proves them wrong. I don't debate things I don't know enough about and that is a loooooot of things. I get that the debate style of most people here is just to call the people they're debating racist but that's not my thing DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 17:18
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Holy poo poo Redditquote:You're trying to sell the idea, that right now hundreds of thousands of illegal migrant men would help stabilize the population numbers. We've all had biology in school John, we know what it takes to make babies. If you read between the lines it would have to mean that these migrants gently caress your women to achieve that. Not that they stand much of a chance, but even the notion is fairly appalling.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:30
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 OUR WOMENS!?!
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Sep 28, 2015 17:32
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CommieGIR posted:
What does '96 points' mean? That 96 people upvoted that comment, or what?
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Sep 28, 2015 17:49
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Clipperton posted:What does '96 points' mean? That 96 people upvoted that comment, or what? Yes. Yes it does.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:54
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CommieGIR posted:
Muhammad: "Where the white women at?"
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Sep 28, 2015 18:10
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Ligur posted:Me and DarkCrawler both live in Finland. A pointless interjection given that I'm well aware of it and haven't held DawkCrawler up as some 'pure standard of intelligent person' (who is 'not Finnish') - although he's certainly a lot more read-up than you are, speaking as someone from the failed dystopia of Multicultural-stan. Ligur posted:Finland, especially Helsinki, are probably not quite as isolated from the world as you seem to think. Again, pointless. Helsinki may be more culturally diverse but that does not make it a 'multicultural' centre. There is a difference between 'foreign people exist here!' and 'we have cultural integration!' and it's crudely disingenuous of you to suggest you necessarily mix with other cultures (willingly or otherwise). You may well do, but "we have ethnics here!" is not a valid point and you should be smart enough to know that. Ligur posted:Anyway like I said before, I have two jobs, So you're taking a job from another Finn who might need it? That's pretty lovely of you dude. Ligur posted:in the other most of my colleagues are not even Finns (Asians are probably the largest group) and we mostly do business for parties outside of Finland, and the other one also has more immigrants than your Helsinki average gig, and many of them originating from Africa or related to people who originally came in as asylum seekers. So I dunno. I don't feel very isolated from the world at least. poo poo it feels almost impossible to isolate yourself from the world if you live in any dense western Urban area these days. This once again raises your lack of understanding of ethnic relations beyond the idea that "but I have a black friend!" levels of discourse - okay so you interact with people who aren't Finnish. So what? Do you understand 'Asian culture'? Are you aware that 'Asians' are pretty diverse? And again you refer to 'Africa' without specifying a region. Do you think this might reflect that your understanding of ethnicity might be overly Euro-centric if not Finno-centric? There's no shame in this, but you tried to talk down to someone who suggested a viewpoint more accurate to the wider world outside of your own, so I take issue with this arrogance. Ligur posted:Yeah most of the time in Finland poo poo is handled like it usually is in Finland, but I'm not sure if that counts as not being multicultural at all. This is different and an attempt at misdirection. The majority of British 'poo poo' is handled like is 'usually is' in Britain. We're still much more culturally diverse than you basically all over, and certainly if we compare capital to capital. Ligur posted:That said, multiculturalism is just a political view, a ism and idea among others, This is loving stupid. 'Multiculturalism' existed for millennia before political philosophy looked at it from an analytical point of view. While it can be looked at through a political lens, the same could be said of genotypes, phenotypes (  ) or philosophy like religious diversity (aka denomination evolution and interaction). It's only applicable to a political philosophy if you make political choices based on it, rather than exist within the system.Ligur posted:I must remind you, it can actually mean different things to different people and there is plenty of interpretation involved. (DarkCrawler dismissed this by proclaiming his one is the only correct one, and everyone else is wrong if they see any fault at such a policy, FYI.) Congratulations you have discovered 'sociology.' Next I can introduce you to 'economics' where some people think taxation is violence against human beings while others consider capital to be violence against the productive class. Do you want a pat on the back for linking to a study that discusses difficulties of multicultural integration? I can find you plenty of others. Can you necessarily back-up the point of view (remembering that 'political science' is a sub-discipline of 'social science' and therefore has a really low point-of-entry for rubes like yourself)? You don't need a formal degree to discuss social sciences yaknow. Ligur posted:About that box pop thing, In D&D, you could often just replace "Muslims" with "right-wingers" to get the same sort of content Fascinating. So your counterpoint to a question of diversity of your news input is to point to D&D. I repeat the person who PMed me's assertion: you're loving stupid about race. e: also it's vox pops, learn English if you want to be part of SA's culture you loving hick Tesseraction fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 21:10
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I think the reason why far-right voices get so much traction is that the Left doesn't really have any kind of real plan when it comes to dealing with the imminent refugee crisis, or the problem of intergration, besides discredited and completely opaque multiculturalism.
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Sep 28, 2015 21:25
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Ligur, can you explain what's your point? To prevent the rise of extremism in Europe we should... adopt some of the extremists' policies? am I missing something or this is your argument? e: ^^^ but no leftist parties are currently in power in Europe, are they?
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Sep 28, 2015 21:40
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