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Xenomrph posted:Prometheus didn't change anything about the old capital-A Aliens, aside from maybe implying that the black goo was derived from them in some way. That implication is a pretty big change. It implies that the creature that everyone's so obsessed with isn't actually the ultimate lifeform, it was just an R&D accident. A fun way to read this is that Ridley Scott had a neat idea 35 years ago and obsessive nerds (mostly) missed the point. The black goo could actually make way scarier poo poo if it was deployed by itself. EDIT: This is actually a minor point in a really good movie, the black goo and monsters are just a backdrop for the characters flaws' to come to life and tear their necks out, it really doesn't matter what the critter doing it is. What I'm saying is you should watch Prometheus. Full Battle Rattle fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 15:35
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Full Battle Rattle posted:That implication is a pretty big change. It implies that the creature that everyone's so obsessed with isn't actually the ultimate lifeform, it was just an R&D accident. A fun way to read this is that Ridley Scott had a neat idea 35 years ago and obsessive nerds (mostly) missed the point. The black goo could actually make way scarier poo poo if it was deployed by itself. We also know the Alien predates the black goo because the dead-by-chestburster Space Jockey in 'Alien' was "fossilized", while the black goo accident that wrecked the Engineer facility was only a couple thousand years ago. Ridley Scott has even clarified this in interviews after Prometheus came out, so if you think he was trying to give a hilarious "gently caress you" to nerd fanboys, he's pretty much outright said that isn't the case. If anything he doesn't give a poo poo about what "nerds" think, I'm pretty sure he's more interested in making the movies he wants to make. I don't disagree that the black goo can make crazy, scary poo poo, but reading Prometheus as giving a big middle finger to the amorphous other that is "nerds" seems bizarrely petty. Not to mention that from what I've seen on Alien fan sites and whatnot, a large majority of Aliens "nerds" liked Prometheus quite a bit except for some reservations, and those tended to have more to do with the filmmaking and execution rather than any treatment of their beloved "Alien universe". So if people are getting off to the schadenfreude of nerds gnashing their teeth in anguish over their beloved Alien being "ruined"... it largely didn't happen. 
Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 15:50
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Xenomrph posted:I think you misread what I said - the black goo was derived from the Alien, the black goo did not create the Alien. The Alien existed prior to the Engineers' "science experiment", and there's actually an Alien depicted on a background mural up on the wall of the Engineer facility/ship in 'Prometheus' - the movie doesn't imply that the Alien was an R&D experiment, and if anything the mural on the wall implies that it's not. Well, I'll be damned, I totally missed that. But the engineer drank it in the beginning when they were creating earth though, didn't he? quote:but reading Prometheus as giving a big middle finger to the amorphous other that is "nerds" seems bizarrely petty. It's because I often have to trawl through the terrible opinions of nerds on sites like these and I like to see them mocked, it's not actually meant to be mistaken for real film criticism. EDIT: Actually, without the petty 'gently caress you' to nerd kind I actually think I don't like this move as much as I did. Change my opinion to 'It's okay I guess.' Full Battle Rattle fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 15:57
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The engineers have been breeding xenomorphs for eons to collect their mutagenic jizzum. Like Mugwumps in Naked Lunch.
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Sep 27, 2015 16:33
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The Alien's implicit in the black goo, not the other way around.
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Sep 27, 2015 16:49
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Full Battle Rattle posted:Well, I'll be damned, I totally missed that. But the engineer drank it in the beginning when they were creating earth though, didn't he? Full Battle Rattle posted:EDIT: Actually, without the petty 'gently caress you' to nerd kind I actually think I don't like this move as much as I did. Change my opinion to 'It's okay I guess.'  I think there's a lot to like in it, especially when taken on its own merits and not as part of the Larger Alien Multimedia Franchise © 20th Century Fox Film Corporation. The visuals are great, David is great, the creatures are weird as gently caress (although the Trilobite's literal penis is a tad on-the-nose, especially in the wake of the more subtle phallic imagery of 'Alien'). I saw it in the theatre in 3D, and when that sandstorm went down, it looked insane in 3D. It was a big moment when I said to myself, "okay, 3D doesn't need to just be a gimmick, this is really compelling use of the technology". It really felt like you were in the sandstorm. For anyone who likes the visuals from 'Prometheus' and wants to see more of them and their development process, the Prometheus concept art book is awesome.
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Sep 27, 2015 17:18
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Basebf555 posted:I've gotten poo poo for this in other threads in the past, but if I'm being 100% honest its very difficult for me to read someone's opinion with an open mind when they refer to Michael Fassbender as "Magneto", and Guy Pierce as "Lance Hendricksen." I'd say that's fair. My recollection of the movie was filtered through poo poo-coloured glasses and I maybe went overboard with the vitriol and affected the demeanour of one of those "everything is terriible" critics that are so popular with all the kids these days. Tried to be funny and failed miserably. I'll own that.
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Sep 27, 2015 18:54
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Xenomrph posted:I didn't mean to diminish your enjoyment of the movie, honest. It happens. Sometimes you realize things about movies you didn't like that makes you like them more, and sometimes you find out things about movies you liked that makes you like them less. For me, it's usually when I revisit some media from my youth and forget there's some ridiculous homophobia or sexism. I can't remember the last time it happened for actual-plot related reasons.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:24
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Maybe WE, are the REAL black goo.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:17
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Full Battle Rattle posted:DOUBLE EDIT: Prometheus is what you get when someone actually tries to make a film instead of filling out a checklist of nerd criteria I appreciate the film even more now sir.
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Sep 28, 2015 00:41
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I will always give credit to Prometheus credit for that. It's one of the main reasons why I do dig the flick even despite the problems I have with it. I'd rather have a decent but not fully formed film about God, and Humans, and Spirituality, than have a guy go "LETS ROCK!!!" and shoot aliens in the face. So loving tired of goddamn references.
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Sep 28, 2015 00:58
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CelticPredator posted:I will always give credit to Prometheus credit for that. It's one of the main reasons why I do dig the flick even despite the problems I have with it. I'd rather have a decent but not fully formed film about God, and Humans, and Spirituality, than have a guy go "LETS ROCK!!!" and shoot aliens in the face. So loving tired of goddamn references. Regarding the likely quantity of references in the new Star Wars movies: "I have a bad feeling about this...."
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Sep 28, 2015 01:28
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:That's...actually well said. So many nerd movies seem pandering and Prometheus aspired to do something. nearly my entire reading of the film was wrong except for the part where I thought it had cool aliens
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Sep 28, 2015 01:40
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Full Battle Rattle posted:nearly my entire reading of the film was wrong except for the part where I thought it had cool aliens Don't let dopes like xeno think for you.
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Sep 28, 2015 01:43
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:Don't let dopes like xeno think for you. from a crazy person's blog: quote:Note that, based on both the information provided by Scott in interviews and the mural in the LV-223 facility depicting the traditional xenomorph, the traditional xeno appears to have already been in existence for some time when the base on LV-223 was wiped out. This would then seem to contradict the popular (and perhaps obvious) theory that the black goo stuff in Prometheus is some type of prototype that would lead to the familiar xeno in future films (though the appearance of a proto-xeno in the final seconds of Prometheus would seem to suggest that this was the direction things were heading in). So I guess there's room for interpretation, I suppose. The engineers have been around for a long time as well, no strict timelines are given, etc. etc.
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Sep 28, 2015 01:54
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Yeah, that blog is apparently reiterating what I'd said (and no it's not my blog, I don't have a blog), and the "black goo created the Aliens" theory was so prevalent that Ridley Scott responded to it eventually and said "nope, but think of the Deacon as a genetic cousin". Like yeah the theory seems obvious because the movie is a prequel and it shows a not-Alien get created at the end. But plenty of movies have seemingly-obvious (and often fun, interesting) theories that unfortunately don't add up when you look at the details. CelticPredator posted:I will always give credit to Prometheus credit for that. It's one of the main reasons why I do dig the flick even despite the problems I have with it. I'd rather have a decent but not fully formed film about God, and Humans, and Spirituality, than have a guy go "LETS ROCK!!!" and shoot aliens in the face. So loving tired of goddamn references.
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Sep 28, 2015 02:11
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Xenomrph posted:Yeah, that blog is apparently reiterating what I'd said (and no it's not my blog, I don't have a blog), and the "black goo created the Aliens" theory was so prevalent that Ridley Scott responded to it eventually and said "nope, but think of the Deacon as a genetic cousin". He's reiterating it, but in much less definite terms than you are. Do you have a link to the interview where he explicitly shoots down that theory? I can't find anything other than internet speculation from three years ago.
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Sep 28, 2015 02:39
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The only bad part of Prometheus is Vickers dying, because she wa smy favorite and I wanted her to live. Other than that it was great.
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Sep 28, 2015 03:27
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Why cookie Rocket posted:Regarding the likely quantity of references in the new Star Wars movies: "I have a bad feeling about this...." I know. That's my biggest worry. I'm okay with some stuff like that...but Christ, don't start stealing sequences and shots. I can't stand that poo poo. Or taking dialog and re-appropriating it to something else. Like in AvP-R (bringin back on topic!) when Dallas(lol) screams "GET TO THE CHOPPER!!!". It's so loving stupid and forced and I hate it. Stop doing that! Please! I beg you! "Come on kill me I'm here kill me!!!" Shut up Adrian Brody! Stop stealing Arnold's lines! Vickers was my favorite character too.
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Sep 28, 2015 03:28
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Full Battle Rattle posted:He's reiterating it, but in much less definite terms than you are. Do you have a link to the interview where he explicitly shoots down that theory? I can't find anything other than internet speculation from three years ago.
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Sep 28, 2015 03:57
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The definitive document on Prometheus (so far) is actually the essay Negative Storytelling and the Posthuman - which, effectively, condenses and summarizes everything I've written about Prometheus since the film came out (and throws in several new points). The weird part is that I didn't write it.
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Sep 28, 2015 04:52
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Actually, this tangent got me to watch Prometheus a second time and it owned. The "stupid behavior" is really a super exagerrated complaint. I hate that tendency from certain people to have everyone act like super emotionless robots at all times or it's stupid. Like my friend who got angry at Fury Road over the "160 days" line. I was wrong about Vickers being the best: David is the best.
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Sep 28, 2015 05:49
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I love that in David humanity created an idealized concept of God but even better. An all knowing, resiliant being that is happy to help humanity, and takes the form and presentation of an approachable and helpful human. And yet through a combination of arrogance and fear everyone assumes him inferior. I loved that so much about the movie, that Weyland created a being of that caliber but still considers him just a tool. And how we see David explicitly figure out and know everything that's going on along with the engineer's language relatively early on. Yet no one thinks to just ask him about it because they're too busy putting god's head in a microwave because they were expecting to find an ultimate validation of humanity having a purpose in the universe but instead all pretty much lose it because they realize humanity has none. Also David reading people's dreams is great too. He already knows the crew better than they know themselves and even calls Shaw out on this at one point.
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Sep 28, 2015 06:17
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Neo Rasa posted:I loved that so much about the movie, that Weyland created a being of that caliber but still considers him just a tool. And how we see David explicitly figure out and know everything that's going on along with the engineer's language relatively early on. Yet no one thinks to just ask him about it because they're too busy putting god's head in a microwave because they were expecting to find an ultimate validation of humanity having a purpose in the universe but instead all pretty much lose it because they realize humanity has none. Looks like they're making a second one, so maybe this time we'll finally discover humanity's porpoise quote:Yes [it will connect to Alien], but it won’t be in the next one. It will be in the one after this one or maybe even a fourth film before we get back into the Alien franchise… The whole point of it is to explain the Alien franchise and to explain the how and why of the creation of the Alien itself. quote:It starts off with a very grand idea—or a grand question, really. Who are they and why did they create such evil biology and bacteriology? And [in creating], to protect themselves from what? So the questions are answered there, or rather, beginning to be answered in Prometheus 2. EDIT: The obvious idea would be that we are intended to be used as hosts once we're collectively smart enough as a species. If I remember right they retain some measure of their hosts DNA, so having them pop out of super smart future humans would make for some very smart xenos. What's worse - no meaning to your existence, or the meaning of your existence (and all of human endeavor) being 'brood chamber for bio-weapon' Full Battle Rattle fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 06:49
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Neo Rasa posted:I loved that so much about the movie, that Weyland created a being of that caliber but still considers him just a tool. I'm not so sure that's the case. In his hologram opening he refers to David as his son, and it seemed pretty implied to me that he puts David above Vickers in his favorite-child category. He also trusts David to do the real work of finding his "cure", and has meetings with him without telling Vickers what's going on.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:46
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NarkyBark posted:I'm not so sure that's the case. In his hologram opening he refers to David as his son, and it seemed pretty implied to me that he puts David above Vickers in his favorite-child category. He also trusts David to do the real work of finding his "cure", and has meetings with him without telling Vickers what's going on. He says in the same hologram chat that David is not human and has no soul and is not real, as David is shown visibly dismayed by this.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:58
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The Weyland/David relationship is really complex considering how little screen time Weyland actually had, I know a lot more was planned with Guy Pearce originally. That hologram scene with Weyland is so fun to rewatch and interpret and reinterpret every time you see it. What exactly is David thinking in that half-second shot? Once you've seen the whole film and know more of David's deal, its easy to see any number of things. I think of it as David learning about jealousy and hypocrisy. Weyland first praises him as one of his own children, then in the same breath invalidates him because he doesn't have a "human soul". But David knows what this mission is about, he knows what Weyland is after. David will never grow old, he'll live forever, isn't what Weyland is striving to be already embodied by David himself? I like to think of that moment as David coming to the final realization that a creation can actually be better than its creator, and that he in fact is better than a human.
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Sep 29, 2015 02:29
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Basebf555 posted:The Weyland/David relationship is really complex considering how little screen time Weyland actually had, I know a lot more was planned with Guy Pearce originally. Which is revisiting the themes of Blade Runner. Androids are man without original sin.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:08
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reminder that the engineers in prometheus were coming to kill humanity because we killed jesus because jesus was a spaceman that said the movie was trashy fun and i'm down for a sequel assuming scott lives that long (unlikely)
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Sep 29, 2015 03:36
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Clipperton posted:that said the movie was trashy fun and i'm down for a sequel assuming scott lives that long (unlikely) Is he sick or something? I think the Prometheus sequel is his next project, or at least the one after that. He works fast these days.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:39
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Clipperton posted:reminder that the engineers in prometheus were coming to kill humanity because we killed jesus I thought it was rather implied that it was because we started making up our own religions instead of worshipping them (the Engineers)?
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Sep 29, 2015 03:46
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Basebf555 posted:Is he sick or something? I think the Prometheus sequel is his next project, or at least the one after that. He works fast these days. Paradise Lost starts shooting in January. Edit: And no, he's not sick (at least not that anyone knows of) but he's 77 and has been working essentially non-stop ever since his brother jumped off a bridge.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:49
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Immortan posted:I thought it was rather implied that it was because we started making up our own religions instead of worshipping them (the Engineers)? No, seriously. The subsequent implication was that the Engineers on LV-233 (the planet in Prometheus) were loading up their bio weapons to come and gently caress us up, and then one of them goofed and they accidentally unleashed the Black Goo on themselves, derailing their plan for genocide. It also gives some more motivation as to why when the last surviving Engineer was awakened, the first thing he does is go apeshit and try to make a beeline to Earth.
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Sep 29, 2015 04:21
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I love how David is super condescending and sarcastic to the humans, who treat him badly, and they never notice because he's a robot. That's such a good show of dehumanization. Imagine the same story set in the pre-War south and David is a slave. He'd be treated the same way.
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Sep 29, 2015 04:24
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Xenomrph posted:According to Ridley Scott, the original idea was that Jesus Christ was an Engineer, and we loving crucified him. Naturally, the other Engineers aren't happy about this, and mark the human race for extinction. I know it's stupid but I also don't mind and loving love it, in fact
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Sep 29, 2015 04:30
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Snowman_McK posted:Which is revisiting the themes of Blade Runner. Androids are man without original sin. I liked this in Prometheus too because in that brief briefing from Weyland we learn a lot about how misguided he is as the movie goes on. You realize his gradual rejection of all aspects of legacy over his life. He makes this huge super successful company but isn't happy with it, he's not happy with his hyper-competent daughter accomplishing all that she has, so he creates his own legacy in David. Yet even in effectively becoming God in the most literal sense in straight up sentient life, it's not good enough for him. He wants to be there personally, he wants the power and adoration of godhood without the distance and obliviousness that would come with it. Weyland himself is like a dying god flailing for relevance, but not realizing the incredible impact of what he's accomplished. I found that really interesting because of how Shaw/Vickers/Weyland form this sort of twisted parody of a holy trinity, with Shaw wanting to be effectively omniscient by knowing the secrets of the creation of life, Vickers wanting to be omnipotent in her constant drive to take over her dad's company, and Weyland wants to be omnipresent via never dying. And anyone who ever went to Sunday school or has interacted with overly zealous Christians knows that if one is asked to describe God the answer is word for word "Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent" in that order, the same order in which we are introduced to these characters, each one seeking those things in their opening scene. Each one is driven by their ego to become their own personal definition of God. Also I LOOOOOOVE that Weyland speaks to them via hologram, as someone "already dead." The characters are, very literally, sent on a quest for the holy grail of everlasting life by a ghost. Only to realize that that was a sham. He appears for real to the rest of the crew out of desperation, but I love that he like, doesn't want to be seen as anything less than his personal definition of immortal, we learn from that hologram conversation that he'd literally rather die than have to suffer the humiliation of that. The movie's general cynicism about religious faith is incredible for such a high profile, big budget movie. That it does this while containing so many parallels to the development of Christianity via Greek and Norse influence is a huge achievement to me. We see the Engineer in the intro, simultaneously evocative of both a frost giant as well as a titan (the word itself possibly interpreted as a being like the sun, a person of great power or capability) interact the Norse creation myth of Ymir, the frost giant and one of the first living beings, created by poison and foisted upon a "grassless world," who eventually gave birth to beings we then worshipped as gods. The black goo is even given the same same as this poison in the mythology, eitr, on the film's website and other promotional materials. The eiter is produced by the giant snake Jörmungandr along with many other serpents, which we see something of a cycle of in the movie itself before Halloway and Fifeld get attacked. Also the obvious Mimir parallel, with the film ending with Shaw cruising the universe with a severed head that is this film's equivalent of all knowing. :O Also I love this snippet of an interview Scott did for Esquire: quote:ES: Humanity's creators in Prometheus aren't much better. The "Engineers," as they're called, are really prickish and hostile. Are they a metaphor for your feelings about God? Both because he's so brazen about his views, but also because of how he lets production of what would be come Exodus slip. He seems excited about it but we can see from the final product that he just basically dumped out whatever could be dumped out. Scott's brother Tony committed suicide shortly after Prometheus' release while Exodus' production was underway which I'm sure effected how that movie came out. Scott himself is an atheist, and you can kind of sort of see where Exodus was "meant" to be going, but it isn't nearly as interesting or layered as Prometheus. Despite the content in his two historical epics I think Blade Runner and Prometheus are the two most spiritual movies he will ever have been involved in (until maybe Prometheus' sequel comes out). Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 05:01
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IMB posted:I know it's stupid but I also don't mind and loving love it, in fact
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Sep 29, 2015 07:58
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I have never seen the the assembly cut of Alien 3 and I don't recall seeing A3 at all. I got around to it tonight because of this thread and I guess it's pretty good. Although I thought the music during the rape scene and the sign "Toxic Waste Disposal" looking like a sign to a cheap theme park ride were really jarring for the movie's flow, to me anyway. Also there was probably too much expository dialogue too, people sitting around and giving speeches. I did appreciate oppressive dread that permeates throughout the film. Weaker than Alien or Aliens but A3:AC would have been a great ending if the Aliens franchise ended with Ripley's death. Much better than Prometheus
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Sep 29, 2015 15:19
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re: The "stupid characters" discussion. There is a point in a movie where a character or something in the movie does not abide by either its own rules or commonly recognized behaviors that it breaks suspension of disbelief for a person, and it feels to that person that this thing happened just to further the plot. This shifts from movie to movie, and person to person, and is an entirely subjective thing. There's no universal either/or line. That makes a big difference in phrasing and responses between "this character acted unbelievably and that's what the movie got wrong" and "when this character did this action, it broke my suspension of disbelief because." In the former, you can be proven objectively wrong, in the latter, you can have a more friendly discussion about standards and experiences that shape the opinion. ---------------- There's also a flaw in the reasoning that if everyone acted competently, you couldn't have a movie. That's not true; there are many horror movies, where, with the information given, the characters took every reasonable step that could be taken and acted like intelligent people would act in those situations. The trick to those is making the antagonist something so dangerous that even the most prepared people can fail. These movies are not about humanity's flaws or hubris but are instead about facing an impossible obstacle. Examples: The Thing (Carpenter) - the only real "stupid" thing in this was Blair putting stuff in his mouth Invasion of the Body Snatchers, 70's version These movies also share some themes and properties, so it makes sense. Interestingly enough movies tied to those make different approaches wit their antagonists: The Thing (prequel) - The Thing is now presented to be far less intelligent and rational than in the Carpenter version, shooting itself in the foot, constantly when it could have easily succeeded The Invasion - the snot plant people are presented as practically incompetent This also changes the mood and themes of those films from their related films. Those changes, and whether you feel it is superior or not, are things that can be discussed. Movies like Alien and Aliens don't necessarily have "stupid actions" as much as they do natural human reactions. Kane is somewhat clumsy and curious, but he's also a space trucker and not someone on a science expedition. Unless he knows he's in a horror movie, it's not "stupid" to look inside a small egg opening when you're already right next to it. Someone in the position of wanting to be let into a ship with a hurt friend would want to break quarantine. A person would not necessarily want to burn their coworker to death to save their own life. There are tons of incompetent leaders in the military (see 'Captain America' in Generation Kill), much less a private military. Etc. There are also movies like generic 80's slasher number 8943624 where a character does the dumbest possible thing in the situation just to provide a cool kill for the slasher, who is arguably the hero at that point. However, even that has a purpose, as things like that often add to the "fun" of a general audience watching. "Don't go down those stairs" and the frustration that an audience watcher can feel from that ties into the "bad things happen to those that deserve it" lie that people tell themselves to feel more comfortable about how random life really is (see how people try to rationalize women deserving rape for their actions, or people dying to overaggressive police with 'they shouldn't have broken the law). These kinds of deaths are far less disturbing to the average film watcher as random, good people in the wrong place and at the wrong time. Prometheus falls somewhere in between an Alien and a Child's Play 2 or something when it comes to character actions, but part of that is arguably the point. It obviously isn't going for the same feel or themes as Alien. However, going into the movie expecting it TO be more like Alien, especially due to promotional material, and the off putting effect that can have is also understandable.
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Sep 29, 2015 16:02
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A slight tangent from something you brought up in your post, but I didn't think the Thing in the 2011 prequel was stupid or incompetent, and in fact on a re-watch you can pick up on how it has several contingencies in place from very early in the movie. It takes something of a "shotgun" approach with regard to assimilating the humans, but it's also never encountered humans before - they're just as unpredictable to it as it is to them. It acts "smarter" in the Carpenter movie because it now has experience taking out a dozen people, so it has an idea of what it's dealing with. If anything, I think having it act differently in the prequel is a subtle, logical detail.
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Sep 29, 2015 16:57
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