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Celebrate with me by watching a Robert Holmes Notable also for being the first story that a certain John Nathan-Turner worked on, albeit on the floor back in the sixties!
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Sep 29, 2015 01:17
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Burkion posted:Back in the day they were actual characters and not living props that shout catch phrases. ahahahaha literally when
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Sep 29, 2015 01:19
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DoctorWhat posted:But I would hasten to add that literally nothing Moffat has ever written is as dramatic a "retcon" as that would be. 1. Inserted his character (Clara) into the history of every single episode. Yes I know it's debated whether or not Clara was there "during" the classic run or "after" (from our perspective) but going forward Clara was there, somehow fighting The Great Intelligence off screen. 2. Made Clara (by which I mean himself) responsible for picking "that" TARDIS. 3. Inserted an entirely new incarnation between 8 and 9. 4. Changed the entire ending of The Time War (and in a looney tunes way that took away from the grand scale previously insinuated). And that's not counting the terrible prophecy nonsense, because we've yet to see if that's actually a thing. He's not a total Hack, and if I produced the show I would have him write a 2-parter every season. But he has too much say over his scripts and ideas, and it doesn't feel like anyone is around to tell him his bad ideas are becoming season spanning metaplots. It is almost as if the duties of lead script writer and producer should be separated. Kikka posted:Moffat's episode focus has become events around which the characters can do drama with eachother. Anyone else feel like this?
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Sep 29, 2015 01:28
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Burkion posted:Also why the gently caress would the Daleks care a little bit about Davros right now? Last we saw him, he was their Pet who got to stay in the basement so long as he didn't gently caress with anything that they didn't approve of. Now they're all DAVROS MUST BE PROTECTED again for no drat reason even though well written Daleks have never exactly gelled with him trying to be their leader, because he is inferior to them. I'll defend this, because what I got out of it was that Davros convinced the Daleks he had this awesome plan to upgrade them all with Time Lord DNA so they went along with it and pretended to respect him again to the Doctor. If you listen to what the Supreme Dalek is shouting when they think Davros is leaving, he is in charge, not Davros. Rhyno posted:So remember that time when Skaro was destroyed? It got better. 
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Sep 29, 2015 01:32
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DoctorWhat posted:ahahahaha literally when It's only really not been the case (poor writing notwithstanding) since Destiny of the Daleks. Before that you'd get scenes in every serial with the Daleks just chatting amongst themselves and deciding what to do. After that, Daleks only generally talk to human characters. There are a few exceptions - most notably in the stories with the Cult of Skaro, which you'll recall was an attempt to make the Daleks more individual again.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:35
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The Space Pirates would benefit a hell of a lot from having the missing episodes found. It wouldn't make the story great, as it did for Enemy of the World, but it would at least make it passable. The model work is excellent and having something happening on screen during the dialogue-free sequences would put a lot less weight on the rather slow live action segments to provide instant entertainment.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:38
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An increased focus on characterization at the expense of plotting is WAY WAY BETTER than the other way around, so good for Moffat. I mean, sure, ideally you'd have both, but if you've got to choose...
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Sep 29, 2015 01:39
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DoctorWhat posted:ahahahaha literally when JaKiri hit the nail on the head. The Dalek from Rose is also a good example of a Dalek As A Character, as he shows a wide range of emotions, all centered on his horrible paradigm of course. Cult of Skaro were also great characters, even if they met an inglorious end. I remember being so excited to see what happened with Sec after the end of season 2. At least Caan was cool. Though serious question, What- have you actually seen much of the Classic Series? I'm honestly curious. You're more of a Big Finish fan- which ALSO has some nice Dalek stories here and there, notably Blood of the Daleks.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:43
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docbeard posted:An increased focus on characterization at the expense of plotting is WAY WAY BETTER than the other way around, so good for Moffat. But you go too far in that direction and everything seems tailor made for the scene. It takes away from the heft of the world and makes it feel hollow. It even undermines the characterization itself, or at least it does for me. I like to think the characters are a result of the environment, and not that the environment is a result of the characters. There's a middle ground there that Moffat use to write in. MrL_JaKiri posted:Celebrate with me by watching a Robert Holmes
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Sep 29, 2015 01:48
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:The Space Pirates, in my opinion, is not a bad episode at all. Not a classic, but not terrible. It features Ms Heriot's most minimalist outfit, at least on the bottom half.  Meanwhile, Josef Stalin guest stars as an old-timey prospector. 
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Sep 29, 2015 01:55
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I do like the production design of that story. Very 2001: A Space Odyssey.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:59
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It may not be possible to make a television career with excellent readings of "shot further into space!!!" but Padbury gives it a drat good go.
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Sep 29, 2015 02:03
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MrL_JaKiri posted:It features Ms Heriot's most minimalist outfit, at least on the bottom half. "Don't stare at her legs don't stare at her legs don't stare at her legs c'mon Pat don't stare at her legs..."
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Sep 29, 2015 02:04
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I can't believe we got to see Clara inside a Dalek again and there wasn't a single callback to Asylum.
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Sep 29, 2015 02:08
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But Rocks Hurt Head posted:I can't believe we got to see Clara inside a Dalek again and there wasn't a single callback to Asylum. I think the screaming of "I am a Dalek" was close enough.
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Sep 29, 2015 02:18
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Moving away from episode chat for a second...they're starting to reveal the guest list for (Re)Generation Who in Baltimore in March for any Mid-Atlantic fans. Peter Davison Colin Baker Frazer Hines Deborah Watling Wendy Padbury Nicola Bryant Sophie Aldred Terry Malloy Nicholas Briggs Robert Shearman Nev Fountain I know last year they added Andrew Cartmel at the last minute, and I hope Sylvester McCoy comes back this year as he's the kiddo's favorite Doctor. It's a smaller con (this is year two?) but run by a group of people who do cons through the Washington DC area. After the War and I met up last year and had a blast (he got to drink and talk about Operation Paper Clip with McCoy while I had a nice discussion with Malloy about The Archers of all things). Worth a visit if you're nearby.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:04
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Speaking of Daleks talking, I think it's in The Dalek Invasion of Earth where the Doctor mocks the Dalek when it claims the Daleks are the masters of the Earth. It orders them hauled off, then kind of starts muttering (and ramping itself up) as it insists over and over again,"We are the masters of Earth. WE are the Masters of Earth. We ARE the Masters of Earth!" I always loved that little nugget of insecurity I felt the Daleks always had going on, that horrible sense buried deep down that they are NOT the superior beings in the universe, that they constantly fail and the only explanation can be that they are somehow wanting.... but they can't consciously accept that (nor indeed, are they allowed to) and so it exhibits in these little moments where the Daleks seem close to having a panic attack, and every time they actually get to exterminate something they revel in it because it's "proof" that they are superior. It's about as close to happy as a Dalek can ever be. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 03:28
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I'm kind of disappointed that they did go with one of the two scenarios I guessed at for the ending. It worked, but I was still hoping it might transcend my expectations a bit. I still enjoy the show for the characters and their interactions, but my god, I wish Moffat would break formula once in a while. I can only handle so many deus ex machina (or his other favorite, love conquers all) endings. I do appreciate that he tried to give it a little credibility during the Missy/Clara segment in the sewer, but they never bothered to clue the audience in on the idea that the Doctor had access to that particular bit of knowledge. Did he visit there while he was joyriding on the seat of power? Did Missy somehow pass this information along? Was it a bluff? That bit just felt clumsy and unearned. The exchanges between Doctor/Davros, I enjoyed. Sure, it got a little hamfisted near the end, but it was well acted, so I didn't mind. Not so much once the trap had been triggered. That would have worked so much better if the Doctor had been a bit more in control. Instead of letting him react to the betrayal with resigned disappointment and follow it up with mischief or anger, they just had him flailing around like an insect stuck to windshield wiper during freeway traffic, and saved the reaction for after Davros' monologue and the Dalek cutaways. I was wrong about how the whole Missy/Clara disintegration bit would be resolved, but only because I felt that resolution was too much of a cop-out to consider. Not just a cop-out, but dumb. If the device was destroyed once it was used, then how did it trigger twice with a delay in between? Was there a second device hidden on Clara? If not, did the second device always have the ability to collect someone remotely? If so, then what was the point of the public tea time meetup in the previous episode if Missy could have simply collected Clara from anywhere at her leisure. At the core, it is still a show directed at children, so I can understand why they cut a lot of the corners they do, but please, once in a while, deliver a story that is solid from start to finish. I don't care if the FX budget has to get cut to get some decent story editors on the job, FX have never been a hallmark of the show.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:35
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EricFate posted:I do appreciate that he tried to give it a little credibility during the Missy/Clara segment in the sewer, but they never bothered to clue the audience in on the idea that the Doctor had access to that particular bit of knowledge. Did he visit there while he was joyriding on the seat of power? Did Missy somehow pass this information along? Was it a bluff? That bit just felt clumsy and unearned. To be fair, the Doctor has been on Skaro more than any other Time Lord, I'd say very few people know more about it than anybody else. If the Master knows about the "sewer", I have no problem figuring the Doctor does as well.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:38
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Jerusalem posted:Speaking of Daleks talking, I think it's in The Dalek Invasion of Earth where the Doctor mocks the Dalek when it claims the Daleks are the masters of the Earth. It orders them hauled off, then kind of starts muttering (and ramping itself up) as it insists over and over again,"We are the masters of Earth. WE are the Masters of Earth. We ARE the Masters of Earth!" There's this fantastic thing you learn about how the actors were instructed to play the Daleks, if you watch one of the Dalek documentaries. It speaks to the heart and soul of them as characters, that has just been lost as of late- The Daleks have massive inferiority complexes, they feel dwarfed by other species because they're just dumb mutants in tanks. To make up for that, they have an ever larger superiority complex, where they must be better because they are Daleks. Daleks are self loathing bombastic hatemongers that will only ever be at peace if every single one of them are dead, or if every other being is dead. This is what I find so insulting about how Moffat has been treating them to be honest- them being crazy hateful isn't scary because they HAVE to be because of radiation or some dumb bullshit like that, and they aren't scary because their very technology censors any positive feelings they may have- They're scary because they don't need that stuff. They are simply awful, horrible creatures, that don't need to be forced to be as evil as they are. For as monstrous as Daleks are, it comes from the most terrifying place possible- very real human flaws. Daleks are ever sincere and genuine about drat near everything, naked in their loathing of all things including themselves. Trying to explain why a Dalek is the way it is because of dumb radiation or the tanks they're in or some stupid hive mind (seriously, Moffat KEEPS changing how the Daleks work. I don't think they've ever been consistent once under his writing) just detracts from what makes them scary. They're scary because any one of us can be like them. Any one of us can be a racist bigot so sure of ourselves that we would gladly wipe out anything we deem unworthy.
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Sep 29, 2015 03:47
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EricFate posted:I was wrong about how the whole Missy/Clara disintegration bit would be resolved, but only because I felt that resolution was too much of a cop-out to consider. Not just a cop-out, but dumb. If the device was destroyed once it was used, then how did it trigger twice with a delay in between? Was there a second device hidden on Clara? If not, did the second device always have the ability to collect someone remotely? If so, then what was the point of the public tea time meetup in the previous episode if Missy could have simply collected Clara from anywhere at her leisure. Missy had two vortex manipulators and slapped one on Clara when they went to the Doctor's goodbye party last episode.
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Sep 29, 2015 04:00
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2house2fly posted:Missy had two vortex manipulators and slapped one on Clara when they went to the Doctor's goodbye party last episode. She even made a point of mentioning that it was tied to her own. They were basically Chekhov's Teleporters. No way that was resolving any other way.
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Sep 29, 2015 04:09
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It's kind of why I wish the Dalek Parliament had been explored a little further, because it really is nothing more than a giant echo chamber where all the "Members" are in complete agreement on all things all the time, and they're basically just there to ramp each other in excitement about what they're going to do next ("EXTERMINATE!") and why ("BECAUSE THE DALEKS ARE THE MASTER RACE!") and how to feel about everybody else ("THEY ARE INFERIOR!") Here's a shot of the Dalek Chief Whip on a busy day: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ________________________/ 
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Sep 29, 2015 04:29
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Believe it or not that's the most sought after job on Skaro. When it exists anyways. The hours are great and you're the most popular Dalek in the party.
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Sep 29, 2015 04:33
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CaptainYesterday posted:The Mirror reports Corey Taylor of the band Slipknot is playing a monster in the next episode. And by 'playing', I don't mean he will appear physically - he will do the monster's screams. Peter Serafinowicz will provider the monster's speaking voice. Oh boy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emh75AYxnzk
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Sep 29, 2015 04:35
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Even better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAeprWIOQqQ
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Sep 29, 2015 08:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtF3_ybJJ50
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Sep 29, 2015 09:29
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DoctorWhat posted:ahahahaha literally when Jubilee. Also, it bothers the gently caress out of me that's there's no consistency to Moffat'a Daleks. Instead of the red supreme Dalek being charge here why wasn't it the same Dalek Supreme that was leading parliament? Or even one of the new designs they spent an entire episode justifying and are still all over promotional materials? Seriously; they had all those Dalek designs in a room together and not a singular new paradigm one.
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Sep 29, 2015 09:58
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PriorMarcus posted:Jubilee. No-one liked the New Paradigm ones. Plus they only existed to be eye-level with Karen Gillian.
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Sep 29, 2015 10:01
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PriorMarcus posted:Jubilee. Given it's a show about time travel, even though both Asylum and this two-parter start in the present day of when each episode was aired, there's no reason to assume the bits on Skaro and the Asylum take place in the same part of Dalek history.
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Sep 29, 2015 10:20
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PriorMarcus posted:Jubilee. Why do some humans preserve old artefacts in museums, and other humans deliberately destroy artefacts? Humans are so inconsistent! Bad writing IMO, all humans should want the same things. Daleks aren't a hivemind. They broadly value the same things, but they are emotional individuals, not cybermen. Maybe the Dalek Supreme from the Dalek parliament is still in the Dalek parliament doing parliamentary things -- this supreme Dalek is the leader of this particular group of Daleks. Some Daleks were feeling a little nostalgic and decided to rebuild Skaro and take care of Davros despite neither of those things helping them conquer the universe. Daleks can have hobbies too.
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Sep 29, 2015 10:23
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Rat Flavoured Rats posted:Given it's a show about time travel, even though both Asylum and this two-parter start in the present day of when each episode was aired, there's no reason to assume the bits on Skaro and the Asylum take place in the same part of Dalek history. Good idea. It is possible that Skaro became an asylum after the insane mutants rose from the sewers.
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Sep 29, 2015 10:28
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I thought the Asylum was a separate world, not Skaro? The whole point being it was a dumping ground for the most insane Daleks at the rear end-end of the universe?
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Sep 29, 2015 10:46
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I still think the mixed Daleks are the propmaster getting lazy for visual interest. I don't know why they're so hot for different Daleks now, since it's never been an issue really. Although it could be argued that since the Special Weapons Dalek is there, these could be Imperial Daleks conditioned by Davros, who have nothing to do with Paradigm Daleks. Actually, a story of a Dalek civil war could be cool; two factions meet each other and make an "alliance" while plotting the doom of the inferior Daleks. Dalek Dalek Dalek. Kikka fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 10:58
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I have to say one of my favourite moments was Missy's little "Can I just say it's been an absolute pleasure to finally meet you". (Before poking him in the eye, of course) One Doctoral Arch-Nemesis to another. Of course she's always wanted to meet him.
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Sep 29, 2015 11:12
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Angela Christine posted:Good idea. It is possible that Skaro became an asylum after the insane mutants rose from the sewers. The Asylum wasn't Skaro.
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Sep 29, 2015 11:15
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Kikka posted:I still think the mixed Daleks are the propmaster getting lazy for visual interest. How is tracking down original 60s-style Daleks to go with your deliberately 60-s styled Dalek city lazy?
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Sep 29, 2015 11:31
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It's an interesting little aside that the daleks have become increasingly visually distinct while becoming much more homogeneous as a group. There's also a hint of 4th wall breaking - the assumption you work under for a TV programme like Doctor Who is that prop differences between eras aren't actually there.
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Sep 29, 2015 11:54
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2house2fly posted:Missy had two vortex manipulators and slapped one on Clara when they went to the Doctor's goodbye party last episode. I missed that detail, but at least it was there.
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Sep 29, 2015 12:37
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CobiWann posted:Moving away from episode chat for a second...they're starting to reveal the guest list for (Re)Generation Who in Baltimore in March for any Mid-Atlantic fans. Didn't realize they had gotten Davison confirmed for this year. It really was an amazing con, and everyone was pretty awesome. Staff was a little flustered throughout, I think they had lots of behind the scenes issues, but they were still really professional and helpful to the con goers.
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Sep 29, 2015 14:36
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