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I'm pretty sure everything in MGS3 was all "wink wink nudge nudge" and then they decided to continue the story from there, so suddenly it all turned serious business.
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Sep 29, 2015 20:55
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Nakar posted:Playing by day is really the hard mode. Sneaking Suit at night makes you almost invisible if you avoid light and aren't sprinting around everywhere. Though D-Horse is also pretty OP for avoiding spotting since curious enemies won't investigate him as long as they can't see you on his back. I never used the Phantom Cigar (except for things like cheesing S-rank in M9) and almost always deployed ASAP. Feeling pretty good about that decision now. I didn't really mean to, it just happened organically. Sulphagnist fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 20:56
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Harrow posted:I'm not sure I agree that Ocelot killing SIGINT necessarily points to SIGINT being one of the founders of the Patriots. I mean, we know now that's why Ocelot killed him, but up until MGS4 we didn't really know much about Ocelot's own involvement with the Patriots. In MGS2, the "Ocelot" personality seems to be on the Patriots' side, while the "Liquid" personality is the one that wants to take out the Patriots, so to connect the dots from "Ocelot killed SIGINT in MGS1" to "he was doing that to strike at the Patriots" seems like a leap until MGS4 happens. I think you're forgetting the phone conversation at the end of MGS though. He specifically killed SIGNIT because of who he was and SIGNIT knew Ocelot's 'true identity.' Even if you assume that Ocelot was betraying Solidus (which he was, he was betraying everyone), he still killed the Darpa Chief on the exact orders of the dude who wanted to stop the Patriots. I don't think "they literally founded the Patriots" was predictable but them having something to do with it is. (And I doubt Kojima had the Patriots planned out during MGS1 but that's where retroactively slotting in ambiguous foreshadowing comes into play!) Like don't get me wrong, I'm sure that during MGS1 he had no plans for the Darpa Chief being vague foreshadowing his murder was more than an accident, but I feel like MGS3 he'd already planned for that DARPA Chief foreshadowing to play into that.
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Sep 29, 2015 20:58
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Here's a hint that you get in MGS3: The code phrase Zero gives you is, "Who are the Patriots?" "La-li-lu-le-lo." Something only he would say.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:01
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ImpAtom posted:I think you're forgetting the phone conversation at the end of MGS though. He specifically killed SIGNIT because of who he was and SIGNIT knew Ocelot's 'true identity.' Even if you assume that Ocelot was betraying Solidus (which he was, he was betraying everyone), he still killed the Darpa Chief on the exact orders of the dude who wanted to stop the Patriots. You're right, I was forgetting that conversation. Maybe where I differ is that I find "the MGS3 support cast eventually became affiliated with the Patriots" much easier to swallow than "the MGS3 support cast were the original Patriots" given the context we have. I actually think MGSV helped that a lot with the Zero tapes, as it made it a lot clearer what actually happened with the Patriots and how good intentions spiraled out of control--it was exactly the context I needed to believe that the MGS3 cast became the Patriots. It wasn't a satisfying revelation to me in MGS4 because it was such a big thing to be given comparatively light foreshadowing--though, then again, maybe it's just because the reveal happened in a 30-minute conversation played over an orange-tinted PowerPoint, so maybe that has more to do with why it was sort of a dud for me.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:03
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Yeah, that contextualizes it nicely. Zero created this huge scheme and it spiraled into this giant THING he couldn't stop anymore. By MGS2 it's a malicious intelligent force controlling America and by MGS4 it's taken over the world's economy, but turned it entirely into a war economy. Also he still loves tea. Heh.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:09
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Sigint's shittank and shitmissile dream was just a premonition of how he was going to turn the world into poo poo with the Patriot AI's.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:17
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Harrow posted:I dunno, I think he deserves more credit than that. Sure, he doesn't have a great radio voice, but his analysis and reviews are very well-considered. He's more than happy to think for himself (see his video on MGS2)--it's just that there wasn't a ton to go on. He does say that MGS4 does ruin MGS2 mystery - but this is Kojima's knee-jerk reaction to fans demanding MGS4 to explain everything. As for the founding members of the Patriots, we see (or hear rather) that Zero is paranoid and doing backdoor deals to control information. His misinterpretation of the Boss's will leads to him using information control (ie changing the past or covering things up) which is pretty bad but this happens in real life too. SIGINT is Donald Anderson who ends up working for DARPA, creating Darpanet, and using Peace Walker's AI to create an AI, the patriots, to take over for the dying Zero. This is pretty much any person working in the military industrial complex. Para-Medic, or Dr. Clark, does the some unethical things such as cloning Big Boss and making Frank Jaeger a crazy cyborg. All of these characters are explained over the course of MGS games. Yes, they can be missed as they are optional codec calls or reading (such as In the Darkness of Shadow Moses that appears in MGS2 by Natasha Romanenko , an optional character you never had to call in MGS1). As for EVA, all I remember is that she birthed the clones out of her love for Naked Snake, or at least Solid Snake, and I don't know what else. Calling the founding patriots members evil is somewhat of a stretch. Its how the all willfully opt in to become a shadow organization to enact the will of The Boss, but in doing so misinterpret what she wanted that leads them into a path as the antagonist. As for world-changing control freaks this is more-so with the AIs that, even in MGS2, seem to control everything (even Raiden / you the player), which was started by SIGINT to help take over Zero's job. In PW we see the AI pods learn so its no stretch that the Patriot AI, which is based off of PWs pods, to also learn and make changes. I should add that since The Patriots organization seems to have unlimited money and answers to no one they can develop horrible ethnic cleansers, make people into cyborgs, clone others, or any other unethical practice. This is where I feel they are 'evil' but at the same time looking at history the US even has bizarre projects such as MK ULTRA and remote viewing studies. Being a legendary hero, or the idea of one, to impress people or motivate others is a huge part of the MGS series. So its no stretch that the Patriots are vilified based on what we see regardless of what their initial motivations were. I admit you have to play every game and connect dots to get to this point. I also admit MGS has some poorly written parts, but what other video game/comic book/movie doesn't? We don't need multiple over explained characters, we just need enough to see how they were involved. On top of that there is no shortage of shallow, cackling 'evil' bad guys like Fatman or The Rage. Sure there are tidbits about them wanting revenge on the person who wronged them, but in the long wrong they make little effect of the main antagonist of each game (Liquid, Solidus, the Patriots, etc). Edit: I see some of the points I was trying to make were already covered by others. When the games end with secret conversations its to make the player go "OH poo poo!!" and set up the possibility of a sequel, hence why MGS1 ends this way. There is also the fact that explaining everything makes its harder to write sequels because ultimately the writer would look back and want to change some things. Kojima does this with every game. SPACE HOMOS fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 21:26
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Harrow posted:You're right, I was forgetting that conversation. Yeah, I can totally understand that. I think the tapes didn't bother me because to me they weren't any meaningfully different from Codec conversations except I could play while they were going on, but I can see how it bothers people.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:28
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One thing to keep in mind is that everyone in Snake Eater is goofy, with few exceptions. Para-Medic gushes about movies, Big Boss eats loving everything, Ocelot meows like a cat, EVA keeps her breasts exposed. The thing that starts everyone down the path of darkness is The Boss's death and the revelation that the whole thing was planned. And in the end, Zero and Big Boss happily lead their subordinates and allies right along with them because they trust them implicitly, and trust The Boss.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:47
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There was no way the reveal of The Patriots would live up to the mystery because unless you do an Assassin's Creed-style revelation where a bunch of famous figures from around the turn of the century turned out to be the proto-Patriots, whoever they were wasn't going to matter. I do believe Kojima never really intended for the plot to develop beyond MGS2, but profitability happened and we got MGS3. MGS3 I think is the first time Kojima really had an overarching, coherent (more or less) storyline in mind when writing new MGS games. As for the MGS3 cast being the original Patriots, it's not mentioned much but I find Zero's involvement with The Boss before the events of MGS3 being a good justification for his eventual turn. Even if he didn't visibly react much after Big Boss returned to America from Russia, it makes sense to me that he would be extraordinarily impacted by her death and what she said just before her death. The more important thing for me coming from Pain is why exactly Cipher changed its name into The Patriots. When there was still a human dimension to it, it was purely an intelligence organization, but with Zero losing his faculties and half of its membership breaking off, it switched from information to control when Peace Walker showed machines could have a will of sorts. Of course by MGS4 that will gets incredibly off-track. While I think the reveal could have been more impactful and better explained in MGS4, the fall of an incredibly human organization into one dominated by machines and fake will is really thematically important to the series. Sylphid fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 21:50
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, I can totally understand that. I think the tapes didn't bother me because to me they weren't any meaningfully different from Codec conversations except I could play while they were going on, but I can see how it bothers people. The tapes actually didn't bother me. MGS4's "cutscenes that are pretty much monologues over PowerPoint presentations" did, though. The tapes really aren't much different from Codec conversations except probably better, like you note, because they don't interrupt play. SPACE HOMOS posted:When the games end with secret conversations its to make the player go "OH poo poo!!" and set up the possibility of a sequel, hence why MGS1 ends this way. There is also the fact that explaining everything makes its harder to write sequels because ultimately the writer would look back and want to change some things. Kojima does this with every game. Y'know, now that I think about it, I think pretty much all of my issues with the MGS series's story revolve around MGS4 being, ultimately, clumsy, overwrought, and unsatisfying (with the exception of its pretty much pitch-perfect final boss fight). I've got complex opinions on MGSV like just about everyone, but my issues with the series's central mysteries come not from what the answers end up being, but the hamhanded way they were revealed in MGS4.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:56
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I liked how MGS2 sort of implied that The Patriots were a an emergent mimetic consciousness that had no concrete body and was incarnated into things like AI but wasn't just an AI. That the machinations of political and military power had taken on a literal life of their own. It's basically impossible to make that concept better by explaining it more.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:57
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Harrow posted:Y'know, now that I think about it, I think pretty much all of my issues with the MGS series's story revolve around MGS4 being, ultimately, clumsy, overwrought, and unsatisfying (with the exception of its pretty much pitch-perfect final boss fight). I've got complex opinions on MGSV like just about everyone, but my issues with the series's central mysteries come not from what the answers end up being, but the hamhanded way they were revealed in MGS4. Yeah, the most important plot is an hour long video after you beat them game. MGS4 should have spent less time on the B&B squad and even less time on Merryl and Johnny. I feel like there are good parts of the game like how Snake resents himself/his life, the critique on the war economy / pmcs, and the bits on PTSD and nanomachines suppressing emotion.
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Sep 29, 2015 22:01
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zedprime posted:35m at midnight, with back equipment. 25m at 11PM with the back stuff unequipped. He flashes me, puts the flashlight away, and goes into reflex at 15m (10m if crouched) without any light assistance. Golden Snake, using mouse and keyboard to make sure I'm going dead slow. Could it maybe be related to enemy readiness somehow? I don't usually do a lot of night infiltration so the Night/Covert Ops box isn't really filled in for me. Or do you suppose maybe it depends on the stats of the soldier? People claim S+/S++ soldiers in FOBs are way more perceptive than low-stat soldiers, could the same be true of random soldiers? None of the soldiers had NVG did they? EDIT: Maxed out Night Ops readiness and tested again. Guards with NVG see you at 65m same as daytime. More interestingly, guards with no special equipment whatsoever see you at 50m, and alert at 15m! So Night Ops readiness appears to make guards more perceptive at night. Your readiness must be in the middle somewhere, so your regular guards can spot at 25m while no-readiness guards cannot see at all. Nakar fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 22:37
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Nakar posted:EDIT: Maxed out Night Ops readiness and tested again. Guards with NVG see you at 65m same as daytime. More interestingly, guards with no special equipment whatsoever see you at 50m, and alert at 15m! So Night Ops readiness appears to make guards more perceptive at night. Your readiness must be in the middle somewhere, so your regular guards can spot at 25m while no-readiness guards cannot see at all. My night readiness is white hot before turning light red so that checks out. The change to 35 to 25 must have been night readiness bumping down from redeploying. And goes to show deploying ASAP is as cool as I like to make it out to be because it keeps guards somewhat or totally blind for night missions you want to do when something matters.
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Sep 29, 2015 22:52
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zedprime posted:And goes to show deploying ASAP is as cool as I like to make it out to be because it keeps guards somewhat or totally blind for night missions you want to do when something matters. OK so with readiness maxed there are two Night Ops things I can dispatch guys to disable: Flashlights and Night-Vision Goggles. I went ahead and sent dudes to destroy both facilities and temporarily disable those things, then went back to the same bridge. Once again, the guy couldn't see me at all. So "Flashlights" and "Goggles" is not a wholly accurate explanation of how the readiness for night operations works. Attached to those progressive steps are additional forms of enemy readiness in some fashion, in this case enemy sight range at night. If your Night Ops readiness is midrange, can you dispatch guys for Flashlights? If you can, can you test it again and see if they become blind? EDIT: Here's a normal guard at max Night Ops readiness, huge difference. He can see me at 50m and goes into Reflex at 20m. Nakar fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 23:05
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Is it me or do guards get faster as you progress? I was at Yoko Ono base and I got a dude on the ramparts suspicious and he just loving zipped down to the bush I was hiding in.
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Sep 29, 2015 23:08
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Funky Valentine posted:Is it me or do guards get faster as you progress? I was at Yoko Ono base and I got a dude on the ramparts suspicious and he just loving zipped down to the bush I was hiding in. REVENGE_TRIGGER_TYPE={HEAD_SHOT=1,ELIMINATED_IN_STEALTH=2,ELIMINATED_IN_COMBAT=3,FULTON=4,SMOKE=5,KILLED_BY_HELI=6,ANNIHILATED_IN_STEALTH=7, ANNIHILATED_IN_COMBAT=8,WAKE_A_COMRADE=9,DISCOVERY_AT_NIGHT=10,ELIMINATED_AT_NIGHT=11,SNIPED=12,KILLED_BY_VEHICLE=13,WATCH_SMOKE=14} So the things that probably make Night Ops readiness increase are being seen at night, enemies finding allies knocked out at night, and just knocking out enemies at night in general. Presumably this means if you night infiltrate but don't get seen or kill/tranq anyone you won't see much increase in Night Ops readiness. Which makes sense, since they don't realize you were present. EDIT: I think I had a bug or something, after dropping my readiness to what seems to be zero again, the night detection radius is 25-30m again. Dunno, maybe night blindness was a glitch or something, but it definitely seems to scale based on Night Ops readiness. Now I have to max it out again to check whether it's increasing as normal. EDIT EDIT: HOLDUP_LOW=true is in TppRevenge.lua, so guards refusing to be held up and trying to attack you is apparently related to Stealth readiness. Nakar fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 23:17
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Nakar posted:~snip~ this owns and is way better than "MGSV sucked because it wasn't my fanfic"
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Sep 30, 2015 00:52
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Phew, how the hell are you supposed to get optional objectives in Total Stealth missions? Abuse the stealth camo and not worry about mission ranks?
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Sep 30, 2015 00:54
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^^^ Yes the stealth camo is by far the best way to get optional objectives. Especially the conversation ones, gently caress those. After farming a lot I'm convinced wormhole fultons are completely silent. I've fultoned containers literally 5m behind guards and they don't hear it. Maybe it only applies to containers and wormholing guards still makes noise?
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Sep 30, 2015 00:58
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RatHat posted:^^^ Yes the stealth camo is by far the best way to get optional objectives. Especially the conversation ones, gently caress those. Wormholes do make a light, though, so guards looking right at it from a few dozen meters away will SEE it at least. But be unable to do anything about it.
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Sep 30, 2015 01:02
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"CP, there's something weird going on here."
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Sep 30, 2015 01:03
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Snak posted:I liked how MGS2 sort of implied that The Patriots were a an emergent mimetic consciousness that had no concrete body and was incarnated into things like AI but wasn't just an AI. That the machinations of political and military power had taken on a literal life of their own. I'm glad that someone else reads MGS2 the same way! For a long time I hated MGS3 for shifting the patriots from memes and norms made manifest, to a govt organization with too little oversight. I eventually came around to it, cuz it's not like MGS2 is changed by MGS3, MGS2 still exists as it always did agnostic to how the series continued. Interestingly, V probably comes closest to being 2 thematically. Both are about attempts to memetically reproduce "clone" soldiers. Both involve a villain plan to shape consciousness through the control of information (content in MGS2 and Medium in MGSV). In 2 the patriots are delocalized from any origin, being creatures of pure norm, an abstraction on the pressures and desires of the polity of the USA; in V this is shifted slightly from the post MGS3 understanding of a shady govt org, back to memes and norms made manifest, with the reveal of the functional death of Zero early on in the picture, the machine he had set up continuing to operate even against his own wishes as he was powerless to influence it. 2 owns and V is pretty cool too.
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Sep 30, 2015 01:06
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Speedball posted:Wormholes do make a light, though, so guards looking right at it from a few dozen meters away will SEE it at least. But be unable to do anything about it. Oh yeah definitely, though it seems to have a shorter range(and height) than fultons.
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Sep 30, 2015 01:30
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I went through the guide and the TppRevenge.lua file and catalogued as much of the response system as I could. I created a Pastebin rather than spam the thread as it's pretty long. The tl;dr is as follows:
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Sep 30, 2015 02:08
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Harrow posted:You're right, I was forgetting that conversation. Totally agreed. Zero's tapes in MGSV really do prove that MGS4 handed that twist poorly. I feel like Kojima threaded the needle perfectly by showing that Zero nearly brought about permanent authoritarian dystopia with hubris and some bad hiring decisions, not cartoonish evil. His vision of a proto-internet that brings people together via their anonymity felt like a venture capitalist waxing philosophical--a perfect template for a person who ruins the world by trying to perfect it. I really wish these details had been included in MGS4.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:19
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By active decoys do you mean the ones that spin around? EDIT: Headshots permanently increasing the chance of helmets explains a lot. RatHat fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 02:19
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Wormhole makes a noise just like regular Fulton Balloons, but they can't intercept. Whenever I've Wormhold'd a guy and someone's been around to notice, they always just radio in to CP telling them something weird is going on or something similar and the area goes on a soft alert.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:28
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Sylphid posted:Wormhole makes a noise just like regular Fulton Balloons, but they can't intercept. Whenever I've Wormhold'd a guy and someone's been around to notice, they always just radio in to CP telling them something weird is going on or something similar and the area goes on a soft alert. The guy might make a noise that inanimate objects don't?
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Sep 30, 2015 02:39
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It must just be fultoning containers that's completely silent then, because I've done that 5m behind guards and they don't hear it.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:40
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Yeah, vehicles and supply containers I'm sure don't make a noise, and I imagine it's the same with every other non-human Fulton object (animals maybe excepted, I've never been in a position like that). Just one of those weird quirks, I guess.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:45
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RatHat posted:By active decoys do you mean the ones that spin around? Most types decrease after a mission so you have to do more to earn points than the removal takes away or it'll gradually decrease over time. Headshots, Fultons, and Tranqs don't decrease. The Chicken Hat can lower them, that seems to be it. After doing some lua edits to enable LUST FOR REVENGE MODE and max everything out there are 14 response reduction dispatches possible: Gas Masks, Helmets, Cameras, Decoys, Mines, Night Vision Goggles, Shotguns, Machine Guns, Body Armor, Shields, Riot Armor, Flashlights, Sniper Rifles, Missiles. Presumably certain other things can't be altered (like Fulton response or what vehicles can reinforce a base), or else they're tied into something else. The game is ridiculously hard now with so many flashlights, binoculars, and snipers.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:46
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So, completely ghosting a mission and taking out nobody will make most of these decrease, then?
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Sep 30, 2015 03:20
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Speedball posted:So, completely ghosting a mission and taking out nobody will make most of these decrease, then? If you play long enough you start to realize taking people out, even with tranqs, just makes stealth harder. Not touching anyone and avoiding their attention makes things a lot more predictable. Nakar fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 03:55
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Ah, but clearing outposts is how you get more troops and Heroism. Dilemma.
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Sep 30, 2015 05:01
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjeoRB2VgH0#t=6m15
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Sep 30, 2015 05:01
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So that's what it looks like when you shoot her.
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Sep 30, 2015 05:06
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A very in-depth guide to S-ranking Mission 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtYVAF0FPTE
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Sep 30, 2015 07:25
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