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Liberal_L33t posted:I was under the impression Baghdad wasn't particularly sandy, but aside from that, just because it was less horrible then the state of religious toleration in Europe at the time, doesn't mean it would be remotely acceptable by modern standards. So anyway, I just read your rapsheet. Yeah, I don't think you get to worry about religious tolerance while supporting fascist dictatorships.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:14
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Liberal_L33t posted:care to elaborate? I'm not sure how to respond to this. Please highlight your proposed solution to the refugee crisis and how its going to improve our image in the Middle East. steinrokkan posted:Why is secularism not a requisite of countries which have secularism enshrined in their constitutional order? So, what, an anti-religious test? That's gonna go over well. Either way, Libera_L33t's claims of a secret plot to out-Muslim everyone else in Europe is just another strawman from the Right that only goes to cause harm to those in need most at this moment. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 18:15
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steinrokkan posted:Why is secularism not a requisite of countries which have secularism enshrined in their constitutional order? Why are you asking me? I'm not the one who started spurging over muslims turning europe into a caliphate or whatever.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:17
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CommieGIR posted:So, what, an anti-religious test? That's gonna go over well. Either way, Libera_L33t's claims of a secret plot to out-Muslim everyone else in Europe is just another strawman from the Right that only goes to cause harm to those in need most at this moment. I can't keep track of all posters, so maybe he said something to that effect earlier, but definitely not in any of the posts to which people are responding right now. This responding to every suggestion of a differing viewpoint with the hysteria and hyperbole of a sheltered manchild is more toxic to the cause of calming the fears about immigration than whatever Liberal 133T may be trying to insinuate in his posts because it helps to discredit the pro-integration side as completely incapable of arguing in good faith. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 18:33
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steinrokkan posted:I can't keep track of all posters, so maybe he said something to that effect earlier, but definitely not in any of the posts to which people are responding right now. Read his post history mate. He's a literal loving fascist. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 29, 2015 18:35
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steinrokkan posted:I can't keep track of all posters, so maybe he said something to that effect earlier, but definitely not in any of the posts to which people are responding right now. Among other wonderful things he's insinuated: quote:The crux of the issue is that a sizable minority of Muslims in several European countries are, in fact, in favor of murdering people for religious reasons when polled on the topic. You don't think that's relevant to the topic of whether or not Sharia law should be allowed to gain precedent and enforceability in western nations? OMG SHARIA LAWSSS!
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Sep 29, 2015 18:40
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Friendly Tumour posted:Read his post history mate. He's a literal loving fascist. Only if Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt were communists because they saw the Soviet Union is a preferable alternative to you know who.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:43
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Generally people radicalize a lot more when you deport them back to a living hellscape to be blow up by an oppressive government or have you head chopped off by local militia number #1,265 If you are in favor of Islam becoming more "open" or what ever to western religious idealism you can start by not sending people to die in one of the most unsafe places on earth.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:44
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Liberal_L33t posted:Only if Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt were communists because they saw the Soviet Union is a preferable alternative to you know who. lol Winston Churchill was a huge idiot and Franklin was friendly to the Soviet Union for reasons other than just Hitler.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:47
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Friendly Tumour posted:Read his post history mate. He's a literal loving fascist. Doxxing people is kinda uncool dude (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 29, 2015 18:47
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Liberal_L33t posted:Only if Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt were communists because they saw the Soviet Union is a preferable alternative to you know who. You are going to make more progress with fighting radicalization through peace and direct help to the refugees than you are trying to send them back. Desperation, violence, constant war and violence, and poverty are direct causes of radicalization. By pushing to send them back because of your fear of Sharia, you are probably doing far more to cause further Sharia instances and actual radicalization. HUMAN FISH posted:Doxxing people is kinda uncool dude  Hiding behind a veneer of valid concern is even more so.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:49
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CommieGIR posted:OMG SHARIA LAWSSS! I mean, I guess the Council of Europe is basically the Nazi Party then? http://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/Xref-XML2HTML-EN.asp?fileid=17106&lang=en http://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/Xref-XML2HTML-EN.asp?fileid=17766&lang=en quote:Drawing attention to its Resolution 1327 (2003) on so-called “honour crimes”, the Parliamentary Assembly notes that the problem, far from diminishing, has worsened, including in Europe. It mainly affects women, who are its most frequent victims, both in Europe and the rest of the world, especially in patriarchal and fundamentalist communities and societies. Whom does it help to pretend these things don't happen, just to promote your political agenda? Sure, the question of causal links between communal killings and either culture or religion isn't exactly clear cut, and casually stating that "sizeable minority is in favour of " something as severe is quite meaningless without something to back it up, but your response to that post is also too exaggerated to be taken seriously when in fact there is an obvious need for addressing exactly this sort of issues in immigrant communities.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:55
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I hear violence is an excellent re-radicalization tool obviously if we maintain the policy that the beatings will continue until moral improves then everything will just be alright in the end won't it?
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Sep 29, 2015 18:56
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You know, it's interesting because the rise of modern Salafist Islamism can be directly connected to the alliance that President Roosevelt conducted with Ibn Saud. Adam Curtis made a documentary about it. It's really good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez2kHIIZbAI
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Sep 29, 2015 18:58
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steinrokkan posted:I mean, I guess the Council of Europe is basically the Nazi Party then? quote:The Assembly notes that whilst so-called “honour crimes” emanate from cultural and not religious roots and are perpetrated worldwide (mainly in patriarchal societies or communities), the majority of reported cases in Europe have been amongst Muslim or migrant Muslim communities (although Islam itself does not support the death penalty for honour-related misconduct). Hmmmmmmmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Perhaps it is misogyny that is the problem, and the fact those societies legally allow such horrible acts enables a culture where it is treated as normal. Perhaps by enforcing the laws of "don't loving honour kill" and "stop abusing women" we would do better. What's the betting those killings mentioned are in ghettoised communities?
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Sep 29, 2015 19:01
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steinrokkan posted:Whom does it help to pretend these things don't happen, just to promote your political agenda? Sure, the question of causal links between communal killings and either culture or religion isn't exactly clear cut, and casually stating that "sizeable minority is in favour of " something as severe is quite meaningless without something to back it up, but your response to that post is also too exaggerated to be taken seriously when in fact there is an obvious need for addressing exactly this sort of issues in immigrant communities. Why are you talking about honour killings all the sudden? Did someone say they didn't exist? No. No one said that.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:02
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steinrokkan posted:Whom does it help to pretend these things don't happen, just to promote your political agenda? Sure, the question of causal links between communal killings and either culture or religion isn't exactly clear cut, and casually stating that "sizeable minority is in favour of " something as severe is quite meaningless without something to back it up, but your response to that post is also too exaggerated to be taken seriously when in fact there is an obvious need for addressing exactly this sort of issues in immigrant communities.  Oh no, the Sharia communities are real, and the cops are letting them do it!Give me a break. Read those articles and try again.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:04
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Tesseraction posted:Perhaps it is misogyny that is the problem, and the fact those societies legally allow such horrible acts enables a culture where it is treated as normal. Guess why I quoted that paragraph. My point is, that Liberal Leet guy stumbled, maybe accidentally, upon a legitimate point (current integration policies have failed to protect some citizens, and religion is at least a correlate in these crimes), and people still acted like he was dancing a merry jig on the corpse of a Syrian orphan.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:11
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steinrokkan posted:My point is, that Liberal Leet guy stumbled, maybe accidentally, upon a legitimate point (current integration policies have failed to protect some citizens, and religion is at least a correlate in these crimes), and people still acted like he was dancing a merry jig on the corpse of a Syrian orphan. Yeah, he just has a long legacy of making these sort of appeals, surely its a coincidence.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:13
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Friendly Tumour posted:Why are you talking about honour killings all the sudden? Did someone say they didn't exist? No. No one said that. He said some people are open to committing violent crimes to uphold their religious / cultural duties, which was summarily ridiculed. How is it not related.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:13
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steinrokkan posted:He said some people are open to committing violent crimes to uphold their religious / cultural duties, which was summarily ridiculed. Because people who do get arrested, nobody honestly believes seriously that honor crimes and Sharia law are going to be 'legalized' as actual laws. Chill out. There's a reason the Sharia poo poo is treated almost entirely as a right wing talking point.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:14
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, he just has a long legacy of making these sort of appeals, surely its a coincidence. OK, I'll assume you know him better than me and that he's advocated deporting all Muslims or whatever, and drop it.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:14
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steinrokkan posted:He said some people are open to committing violent crimes to uphold their religious / cultural duties, which was summarily ridiculed. How is it not related. He did not. He said that Islam did not deserve religious tolerance, and then he went on about something secularism that was unreadable. Saying that the dominant immigration policies of the past decades in Europe have failed and have resulted in ghettoization in large parts of it is not a controversial argument (and I agree). It's also one that he did not make.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:22
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Closing off immigration to Europe is also an argument I didn't make. But if that immigration is going to continue at the present pace, there needs to be more aggressive government efforts to encourage their assimilation and stamp out patriarchal cultural beliefs and practices. the fact that honor killings and religiously motivated violence are prosecuted when possible does not change the fact that such events are growing more frequent and strongly correlated with immigrant communities. Edit: if you're looking for specific suggestions, closing down the extremist mosques which are proliferating in many European countries would be a really good start. Liberal_L33t fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 19:46
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Here is the latest UNHCR report if anyone wants to look at some actual numbers instead of wildly speculating and calling each other racists.
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Sep 29, 2015 20:00
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Liberal_L33t posted:Closing off immigration to Europe is also an argument I didn't make. But if that immigration is going to continue at the present pace, there needs to be more aggressive government efforts to encourage their assimilation and stamp out patriarchal cultural beliefs and practices. Sooooo....what you are saying is, we need to deal with those already in Europe, versus the refugees.
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Sep 29, 2015 20:05
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Liberal_L33t posted:Edit: if you're looking for specific suggestions, closing down the extremist mosques which are proliferating in many European countries would be a really good start. I actually spoke about this some years ago with at-the-time Euro-MP Jana Hybášková (nowadays serving as the EU ambassador in Iraq), and her opinion was that doing so would be highly contraproductive, as it would actually encourage the suspect elements to gather outside public space, and would make their radicalization or recruitment by illegal organizations easier. The reason is that according to ( most schools of it) Muslim jurisprudence, the establishing of a mosque is essentially effected by a "mere" act of will (i.e. opening a public space to prayers) or a verbal contract. There need not be any sacred buildings or great structures, the mosque, as a community of worshippers using common ground to carry out their duties on a regular basis, can easily move underground if persecuted at a state-recognized place of worship, and may see this displacement as an injustice fuelling their resentments. To quote an extreme conclusion of this view on mosques: "He replied: With regard to the general meaning, the entire earth is a mosque because the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The earth has been made a place of prostration and a means of purification for me.” " http://islamqa.info/en/170800
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Sep 29, 2015 20:42
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Hmm, what is this again?
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Sep 29, 2015 20:48
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And here at last we come to the real reason behind the opposition to refugee immigration. Concerns of employment are, and always have been, smokescreens for this argument, the argument of cultural alienation. "They are different, they will always be different, they're bad", yawn, try again in the next 100 years, when you're using the same argument against whatever group of people are being targeted then.Liberal_L33t posted:Closing off immigration to Europe is also an argument I didn't make. But if that immigration is going to continue at the present pace, there needs to be more aggressive government efforts to encourage their assimilation and stamp out patriarchal cultural beliefs and practices. steinrokkan posted:Why is secularism not a requisite of countries which have secularism enshrined in their constitutional order?
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Sep 29, 2015 21:35
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Religion, much like employability, isn't a factor in someone being a refugee, so it's totally fine to repeat the same things about Islam that are said every time it comes up in D&D I guess? For three pages.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:47
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This thread and the middle east thread are blurring together in my mind because they're both full of Liberal_L33t posts calling for the extermination of Muslims because They're Bad(tm).
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Sep 29, 2015 22:16
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I was looking at the newly posted Mixed Migration Trend Report for August, and something caught my eye under the Egypt section. The first thing there is that there is a new movement of irregular entries into Egypt, mainly comprised of Syrians, from Lybia and Sudan. I'm genuinely a bit confused by this, since it's not like there is an easy route from Syria to Lybia. Not sure as well how this correlates with their later statment about numbers of irregular sea departures from Alexandria. I realize that this is likely a non-significant number of people crossing into Egypt like this, but i'm still a bit baffled by the particulars of getting to Lybia or Sudan to grt into Egypt. Unless these were people that had found temporary refuge in either of those coutries and are now looking for a better bet.
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Sep 29, 2015 22:18
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PaleIrishGuy posted:I was looking at the newly posted Mixed Migration Trend Report for August, and something caught my eye under the Egypt section. It's not like there's an easy direct route from Syria to Egypt either. I suspect that the refugees more or less go where they can.
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Sep 29, 2015 22:31
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PaleIrishGuy posted:I was looking at the newly posted Mixed Migration Trend Report for August, and something caught my eye under the Egypt section. fade5 fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 23:09
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DarkCrawler posted:Religion, much like employability, isn't a factor in someone being a refugee, so it's totally fine to repeat the same things about Islam that are said every time it comes up in D&D I guess? For three pages. If Hitler was a refugee would you welcome him? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 30, 2015 00:18
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tumblr.txt posted:If Hitler was a refugee would you welcome him? War crimes, unlike religion or employability, do affect refugee status.
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Sep 30, 2015 00:22
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fade5 posted:Some of the Libyan Syrians are possibly people who went to Libya to try to cross to Europe (Libya barely has a government, so it's a hot spot for crossing to Europe), and were then caught/turned back/shipwrecked/otherwise detained from trying to cross. Since Libya (again) barely has a government, it's unstable as hell; presumably some of those same people are now crossing into Egypt to try to find slightly more stability, rather than trying another attempt at crossing on boats. The one that really gets me is Sudan though. To get there, someone would have either had to have a flight there, or basically cross through Jordan/Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and then cross the Red Sea. But if going that far, why not hop from Saudi Arabia right into Egypt. Its the Eastern migration of refugees from the east of Egypt that has me flummoxed.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:33
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DarkCrawler posted:War crimes, unlike religion or employability, do affect refugee status. What if he had already stopped and said he no longer agreed with his previous actions?
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Sep 30, 2015 09:32
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mobby_6kl posted:What if he had already stopped and said he no longer agreed with his previous actions? I think he might have to still go on trial for the 11 million people he executed in the camps. I can work this out for myself because I don't eat paint chips all day. E: I mean, "If you let people who used to fight for al Nusra in YOU HAVE TO LET HITLER IN TOO"... Really? Starshark fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 09:34
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rudatron posted:The problem is that you're taking a perspective that's focused only on Europe. Go to the US and start talking about how immigrants are lazy, and you'll just get shut down. US Agribusiness wouldn't work today without the low wages that they're demanding, the entire industry is predicated on migrants not 'being lazy'. The US & Canada do not have the same disparities as Europe w.r.t migrant employment, and even within europe the extent of it depends on where you are. I'm aware of it all. I don't know what to reply to this. Of course my perspective is an European one because 1) I'm in Europe 2) We're talking about an European crisis. Why is this a problem? You can't compare how the economies are run and it certainly has nothing to do with "immigrants are lazy". The short version is: in USA it's easier to hire and fire, it's easier to get employed, and the welfare benefits are very slim, in Europe it's very expensive to hire, difficult to fire, and it's hard to get employed and there are few jobs, but we have very high welfare benefits. We don't have any large low wage, good for unskilled sectors anymore, to fill with migrant workers, that said... Recently the grand business mogul and super capitalist of Finland "Nalle" Wahlroos was rubbing his hands together with the prospect of Finland having to deal with mass immigration. I suspect he wasn't being completely altruistic, and is well aware of the unemployment issues. What that will, however, eventually do is drive the price of work lower and lower and might even start heavily denting the welfare state, forcing people to work for less than ever. And for people like him, what could sound better? quote:But okay, let's talk policy. There are a couple of big things that can be done. Language acquisition is imperative. Punish those that refuse to learn the local language, but give everyone good access to resources to get them learning it (But let's be real here: English is the only real language anyone needs, and the sooner certain French-and-other-Eurotrash countries realize this, the better). Upskilling unskilled workers is generally a good idea, but with migrants you've got real cases of untapped potential, because they're not always going to be able to transfer their qualifications they may have had. I'm going to diverge from what others have said and say that bilingual schools are actually a trash idea, that you're better off getting them learning the local language, then shoving the kids into the normal school system. Agreed on all points no matter what country. I think it would be good if people could choose if they learn either English or Finnish, but many Finnish employers still require at least semi-fluent written and spoken Finnish. To be honest, there are a lot of jobs that would be hard without apart from IT. Also shoving the kids to school. I think failing to get your kids there, much less sending them back home to "learn their own culture" when they hit puberty should be sanctioned because that leaves them behind their peers. For whatever reason, non-OECD immigrants are under-performing in school in the Nordics (and Germany and Belgium and so on). That's going to turn into a big issue later on. Guess it already is, because a second generation young adult who failed to educate himself will be far behind when applying for the few available jobs AFAIK the girls are doing pretty well as long as they are allowed to study for as long as they want and what they want. quote:Concerns of the particularities of Islamic immigrants are overblown when you compare the same rhetoric to old anti-catholic propaganda in the US. The biggest causes of radicalization are social, not cultural, and you'll find disenfranchised Buddhists can be just as dangerous as disenfranchised Muslims. The biggest thing to remember is that muslims, like most people, are normal, which means their concerns are, in order of importance: 1) getting food on their table 2) meeting with friends 3) the ending to game of thrones 4) maybe politics. Secret plans to overthrow the EU and establish the Eurabiastan caliphate isn't on that list, that's mostly the domain of shut-in paranoid retards, so basically the muslim versions of you, ligur. This penchant of talking about Muslims in almost every single even semi-serious reply in this thread is bizarre. I have mentioned Islamists I think... once during the thread. I don't believe in secret Eurabistan caliphate plans, I have certainly not posted about such here, yet you call me a shut-in paranoid retard because of this secret plan? Don't you see anything a little out of whack here? This thread would be much better if people didn't post on the premise that "hurr derr, poster X surely believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, even though he hasn't mentioned it, but I will now proceed to smugly insult him over it anyway" almost all the loving time. What does anyone get out of it is beyond me. I don't even want to go there but European residents who radicalize usually have an identity crisis if anything, and they are by no means poor or disenfranchised in any particular way, but let's not even start with that. There is probably enough about that crap in the Middle-East thread or somewhere else and frankly, the whole MUSLIMS!!1 -discussion, especially the one-liner posters of this thread who keep going on about them (mostly on probation right now, luckily) is not really relevant to the current European refugee crisis. Honj Steak posted:Finland has a higher GDP per capita than Germany. You are very well able to shoulder a fair percentage of the influx. However tbf, if the average Finn is anything like you (which is not my experience) I wouldn't recommend a refugee to go there. Finland, the economic powerhouse that smashes even Germany. I don't know what to say. This is so bizarre. I couldn't find a single list that ranks Finland over Germany though. Anyway it's a bit of a myth that countries like Finland are super wealthy, which is an attitude adopted from the 70s and 80s, we're certainly not. Our salaries are low, our taxes are either 1st, 2nd or 3rd highest in the world depending on who counts, our cost of living is in the top 10 of the world year in year out, we're in an a 8 year recession with no growth in sight, we have 400 000+ unemployed, a stifling bureaucracy that chases entrepreneurs and well employed young adults out of the country, and we must constantly take more debt to run our public sector while being forced to cut on stuff like "education" and "health-care". This is not some utopian paradise where money grows in trees: the truth is, we're in poo poo. Sorry, the average Finns is probably more "like me" than you think, muahahahah. What do you think I'm like, then, that you're so worried? I'm fine with refugees not coming here though. Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 12:56
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