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StashAugustine posted:Also turboraton have you played any of the COIN games? Fire in the Lake is really really cool. My group doesnt play it that much tho. I don't have a fully upgraded account so I dunno how would I send PM's. I mostly browse the dota/blood bowl thread and then I remembered "hey, SA HAS a boardgame subforums".
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Sep 28, 2015 23:18
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Tekopo posted:we are all wargamers here and more than anything, wargamers do love dice, or we wouldn't be in the hobby. Dice are the stippled eggs of the devil himself, and hatch the gambler's sin in the hearts of upstanding gamers. Submit them to cleansing fire. Deterministic fog of war systems are the Lord's Only Truth. Twilight Struggle gets a pass because Twilight Struggle.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:30
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FebrezeNinja posted:A wide variety of timezones and personal schedules. It actually started out at a good clip and a big chunk of the time is this turn and the last. Also bleh to the French religious struggle. Yeah, that's mostly my fault. Still, it's gone surprisingly well, other then the length. I appreciate you guys sticking it out with me. The next game I run shouldn't be quite so long, hopefully, though I might try giving FITL a go again. I'm thinking a team game of War of the Ring next.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:32
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For the HIS/VQ stuff I think excusing the lovely dice system by pointing to the diplomatic aspects is essentially the same as excusing Cosmic Encounter's single deck bullshit (also somewhat present in the CDGs) with its diplomatic aspects. At some point, regardless of your play, you're mashing the RNG and seeing if you won. It's not just the combat either, the exploration in HIS can have an impact on the game and that's just a weighted 2d6 roll if I remember correctly. I think the basic concepts are great and I'd love to play a multiplayer CDG that eschews the dice altogether.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:44
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cenotaph posted:For the HIS/VQ stuff I think excusing the lovely dice system by pointing to the diplomatic aspects is essentially the same as excusing Cosmic Encounter's single deck bullshit (also somewhat present in the CDGs) with its diplomatic aspects. At some point, regardless of your play, you're mashing the RNG and seeing if you won. It's not just the combat either, the exploration in HIS can have an impact on the game and that's just a weighted 2d6 roll if I remember correctly. I think the basic concepts are great and I'd love to play a multiplayer CDG that eschews the dice altogether. There's still a lot of variance in how and when cards come out- I think people sometimes overstate the impact of dice in comparison to that bit of the game. VQ/HIS have much more interesting interactions than Cosmic Encounter, too.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:49
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After seeing the PbP Churchill game I'm kicking myself for not getting that on the p500. I have a great group for it because we somehow always end up with three people and the coop-etition aspect would be perfect for the group personality. Plus, it looks amazing.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:52
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Perspex using Wargamers, what thickness should I be looking for in a perspex or acrylic sheet?
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Sep 29, 2015 03:24
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cenotaph posted:For the HIS/VQ stuff I think excusing the lovely dice system by pointing to the diplomatic aspects is essentially the same as excusing Cosmic Encounter's single deck bullshit (also somewhat present in the CDGs) with its diplomatic aspects. At some point, regardless of your play, you're mashing the RNG and seeing if you won. It's not just the combat either, the exploration in HIS can have an impact on the game and that's just a weighted 2d6 roll if I remember correctly. I think the basic concepts are great and I'd love to play a multiplayer CDG that eschews the dice altogether. I still dont know whats so lovely about hittin on a 5+ o.o Looks like what you hate is dice all together.
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Sep 29, 2015 04:02
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turboraton posted:I still dont know whats so lovely about hittin on a 5+ o.o Looks like what you hate is dice all together. As has been explained above, the buckets of dice approach has a high variance which reduces the meaningfulness of strategic planning.
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Sep 29, 2015 05:34
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5+ to hit, for the number of dice you are using, might as well be completely random. You need thousands of rolls to get to a statistical average and you just can't achieve that in a single game of VQ. Which means that the range of results is too wide in comparison to a lo of other war games. See my earlier mention about Wellington.
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Sep 29, 2015 05:41
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unicr0n posted:Perspex using Wargamers, what thickness should I be looking for in a perspex or acrylic sheet? Thickness? I'd say between 2 and 3 millimeters should be fine judging by what I've seen with regards to real-life Advanced Squad Leader games I've watched. Perspex sheets available online seem to hover around 2mm, and it really should be more than enough. Edit: I've just spotted some up to 5mm, but obviously cost and weight goes up a fair amount. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 06:06
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Honest question, are there any respected war games that do throw enough d6s to reasonably regress to the mean?
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Sep 29, 2015 06:12
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cenotaph posted:As has been explained above, the buckets of dice approach has a high variance which reduces the meaningfulness of strategic planning. I just don't see that sorry. Disregarding events and diplomacy, you can maximize the dice used and fight a serious logistic war. THEN add the events and diplomacy and the fact that this is a FFA 6player game and I believe this is a really good game. Tekopo posted:5+ to hit, for the number of dice you are using, might as well be completely random. Yikes, I'm in the wrong thread then. I think its perhaps that I got introduced to wargames with old things like Axis and Allies that I find these odds normal. I know you have tried VQ/HIS and just dislike the game, but I would suggest the rest to try to give it another shot. I just enjoy the replayability of the game. I keep reading the session and the game could have gone in SO MUCH different ways regardless of the dice. turboraton fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 06:57
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'finding the odds normal'. I got started into war gaming as a minis war gamer so I'm pretty used to X+ to hit as well, it is something that I am familiar with (much more so than CRT based results). Have a look at the graph at the start of this wiki article: since the average is so inconsistent with low numbers of dice rolled (which is the case for HIS/VQ), the fact that 5+ is slightly more difficult to hit than to miss is kind of irrelevant. Also, please don't leave the thread just because of this discussion: I do actually think it is an interesting discussion and everyone's input is welcome. As I mentioned, I do t think VQ/HIS are bad games, but I do think some things could have been done to improve them in regards to certain aspects of them. I know the reason why X+ to hit was the chosen system, though, since they simply chose the easiest possible combat system in order not to over-complicate an already complex game.
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Sep 29, 2015 07:26
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From what I've seen of the PbP, cobbling together an odds table like in Red Winter wouldn't add too much complexity.
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Sep 29, 2015 07:50
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Tekopo posted:I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'finding the odds normal'. I got started into war gaming as a minis war gamer so I'm pretty used to X+ to hit as well, it is something that I am familiar with (much more so than CRT based results). Have a look at the graph at the start of this wiki article: since the average is so inconsistent with low numbers of dice rolled (which is the case for HIS/VQ), the fact that 5+ is slightly more difficult to hit than to miss is kind of irrelevant. I'll be honest with you, I don't understand the math behind it and also X+ to hit is the only system I have ever played on a wargame. That being said I have playtested and played HIS/VQ long enough to realize that 1) 4+ to hit would totally ruin the balance because it would favour waaaay too much the attacker. 2) I would be willing to know, learn and practice another type of hitting system and I still dont think it would change how the game is played because a total war between two players in which neither of them gets a total advantage favors the other 4 players and that's the beauty of the game. Diplomacy, events and backstabbing is what I would call Strategic Planning instead of just rolling more dice. gently caress, even crushing your enemy fucks you up because it paints a target on you. If anything, it's passive players that drain the fun out of His/Vq and when someone likes the game it's because he thinks "next game im so doing this this and that" only to realize the game unfolds in a different way all sessions. I know one year of playing the game would drain anyone but if I was the Spanish player I would rethink the session and think "holy cow I could have cucked everyone and got cucked instead, next time they are so getting what they deserve!" Also I HEAVILY disagree with the guy that said that you get hosed up once with dice and you are out of the game. HIS/VQ must be one of the series with the best ways to get back into the game. I would love to know more about other wargames don't rely on X+ to hit. Sorry for my english btw, you may have noticed english it is not my native language. turboraton fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 08:15
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The basis of my argument is that it isn't beyond the realm of probability that you can get poo poo on by dice for the entirety of the game and there isn't a way to minimise the dice luck apart from just adding more dice. As an example of another system that does a large component of dice luck associated with it, let's take Empire of the Sun: eots does battles by having you total your attack factors (different units will have different attack factors). You then roll a d10 (a dice with much higher variance than a d6). You consult a table and depending on your dice roll you have a range of possible results, going from a quarter to one. So if you rolled a quarter you would only do a quarter of your attack factor in hits. Why the system works is due to how hits are allocated. Units have a defence factor to which hits are allocated to and it requires that number of hits to either flip the counter or eliminate it if it has already been flipped. There are also various different dice modifiers that can increase or decrease the dice roll. Another method that is used by a large percentage of hex and counter games is the combat results table (CRT, eots uses a partial combat results table mixed in with a hit percentage system). CRTs usually work by finding out the combat ratio between attackers/defenders. Different ratios use different columns on a table and these can be tailored to how you want to shape the game, but usually if the attacker overwhelmes the defender, the results are always going to be bad for the defender and you are just working out by rolling HOW bad those results are.
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Sep 29, 2015 08:51
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If I were designing a game like this and I wanted to use dice I would probably use a firepower table. A CRT does add calculations and when all the units are strength one or two it could be wonky. Something like if you have three strength worth of units you check the three column on the firepower table and roll a d6, generating hit results of 0,1,1,2,2,3 or something like that. As you go higher in number the results stay roughly proportionate so you never generate 0 hits with eight ships or whatever. I just pulled those numbers out of my rear end, I'm not recommending using that exact spread. That way if you invested in a sizable force you're guaranteed to do at least some damage. I think it would enrich the strategic decision making since it would allow you to think stuff like "well he can only do five hits to me at max so if I engage with a force of X size it will be enough to blah blah blah" instead of just hoping for the best when you roll. For me it's quicker than rolling a fist full of dice, too. Personally, the experience of rolling something like two hits on 13 dice isn't frustrating necessarily because of how it alters the game state, but because I feel stripped of my agency. I feel like the decisions I made to get to the point where I had to roll just don't matter. I would feel the same way if I hit on all the dice, because it would be terrible and almost completely unpredictable for my opponent. turboraton posted:Sorry for my english btw, you may have noticed english it is not my native language.
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Sep 29, 2015 09:36
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Tekopo, when I get some free time (that is, probably never) I'll force you to play FAB: The Bulge over vassal or wargameroom. I wonder how it's brand of bucket of dice with a heap of workarounds will sit with you. It's got some interesting maths to it and while at first I felt it's needlessly fiddly as compared to a simple CRT, I grew to like its nuances.
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Sep 29, 2015 10:53
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Hey Lichtenstein, I'm feeling generous and stupid. You want a pair of those Russian dice? I'll mail em to ya, free of charge
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Sep 29, 2015 12:00
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Shiiiit, sure I do. Since it appears we live on different hemispheres (Michigan - Poland) and a family member of mine will be in the US in a few weeks, I'll try to get back to you in a day or two with a US address, so the shipping is way less retarded.
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Sep 29, 2015 12:08
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Yeah, hit me up with details via lordfrisksa @ gmail. I'm ok with shipping to Poland too, I like to pretend I'm an international drug dealer.
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Sep 29, 2015 12:16
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Lord Frisk posted:Yeah, hit me up with details via lordfrisksa @ gmail. I'm ok with shipping to Poland too, I like to pretend I'm an international drug dealer. Since most of us never play all these wargames we buy, they might as well be.
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Sep 29, 2015 15:46
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Look man, I can stop buying games any time I want!
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Sep 29, 2015 15:56
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Is there, or has there been, a Churchill PBP on SA? That would be wicked fun.
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Sep 29, 2015 16:05
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COOL CORN posted:Is there, or has there been, a Churchill PBP on SA? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3738775&pagenumber=1 Come watch me gently caress up a different war! Lichtenstein posted:Tekopo, when I get some free time (that is, probably never) I'll force you to play FAB: The Bulge over vassal or wargameroom. I wonder how it's brand of bucket of dice with a heap of workarounds will sit with you. It's got some interesting maths to it and while at first I felt it's needlessly fiddly as compared to a simple CRT, I grew to like its nuances. Can you go into more detail on this? I'm always happy to hear about different mechanics. Like I said the FFG Star Wars games generally do a good job of justifying their dice pools, since there's so much manipulation of the results you can do. Also just reiterating if you like card-driven wargames and actually really hate randomness look up Wir Sind Das Volk. The only random element is the way the cards come out and since you've only got two in hand and the rest available for both players there's less of an effect from bad draws.
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Sep 29, 2015 16:19
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StashAugustine posted:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3738775&pagenumber=1 drat! Wish I had gotten in on that.
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Sep 29, 2015 16:27
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I'm on a phone slacking off on a business trip, so it's sorta unwieldy to quote it right now, but if you go through my post history in this thread and ctrl-f FAB, there's a detailed description somewhere.
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Sep 29, 2015 16:30
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StashAugustine posted:Also just reiterating if you like card-driven wargames and actually really hate randomness look up Wir Sind Das Volk. The only random element is the way the cards come out and since you've only got two in hand and the rest available for both players there's less of an effect from bad draws. Seconding Wir Sind Das Volk. The gameplay is tight, all the decisions are meaningful, the component and design quality are great, and it's pretty cheap. The rulebook could use a tiny bit of work because some things aren't spelled out as clearly as they might be. If I had to say one bad thing about the game, it's that playing as the East is easier to pick up so the win ratio will probably be lopsided for the first few games.
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Sep 29, 2015 18:30
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StashAugustine posted:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3738775&pagenumber=1  Watch you gently caress up a war? I'll show you how to gently caress up a war.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:12
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kalthir posted:Seconding Wir Sind Das Volk. The gameplay is tight, all the decisions are meaningful, the component and design quality are great, and it's pretty cheap. The rulebook could use a tiny bit of work because some things aren't spelled out as clearly as they might be. If I had to say one bad thing about the game, it's that playing as the East is easier to pick up so the win ratio will probably be lopsided for the first few games. Yea, this happened to me in the first two games I've played, I played as the West and got wrecked, but it is definitely awesome.
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Sep 29, 2015 19:57
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Gutter Owl posted:Dice are the stippled eggs of the devil himself, and hatch the gambler's sin in the hearts of upstanding gamers. So say we all.
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Sep 29, 2015 20:48
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Speaking of games that dice swing all over the place... It's incredible how much I've been loving Churchill, even playing it solo.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:22
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How is the solo AI for Churchill? I really want to give it a try, but at the same time I don't want to play it and then have to introduce it to the group and have too much of an advantage.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:32
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Ithle01 posted:How is the solo AI for Churchill? I really want to give it a try, but at the same time I don't want to play it and then have to introduce it to the group and have too much of an advantage. For the agenda segment, you roll a die to decide if the bot will pick it's highest-strength card, or second-to-highest, or second-to-lowest. For the most part, issues are picked by "look at the high value cards and see what issues they deal with" Stalin will debate everything, as long as it puts the issue on the Soviet track. Churchill will debate nothing except for the Global issue - gotta keep them colonies pure! I haven't played the Roosevelt AI (I played him myself) It's more a guideline of "here is what this character should do, given how he was historically" than a rote flowchart, but it keeps things interesting and thematic. Stalin will gobble up all the issues early because of how much he wants to debate, but then I (Roosevelt) could snatch them back later in the conference phase. As far as the military side, there's a flowchart of where to play offensives and things as well. Again, most of it is common sense based on how the war actually played out. All in all, once you get the gist of it, you don't have to look at the flowcharts often, but I think they work pretty well. On top of that, Mark Herman wrote in the rules that he's expecting and hoping that people will create their own AIs to post on BGG or wherever, so that's cool as well.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:38
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Cool, sounds good, thanks for the input. I feel it could be helpful to just have people read that over before they play for the first time so that they know what's going to work and what isn't.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:43
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A couple of posts in the Grognard Games thread made me wonder. Are there any wargames about WWI? Trench warfare doesn't seem a good setting to base a game on.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:08
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Fat Samurai posted:A couple of posts in the Grognard Games thread made me wonder. Are there any wargames about WWI? Trench warfare doesn't seem a good setting to base a game on. Well, there's this little thing called Paths of Glory, arguably the most popular wargame published in the past 20 years or so
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Sep 30, 2015 18:14
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Fat Samurai posted:A couple of posts in the Grognard Games thread made me wonder. Are there any wargames about WWI? Trench warfare doesn't seem a good setting to base a game on. I dunno if it's any good, but I know I really want to play To the Last Man. Also Fields of Despair is gonna own (I hope).
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Sep 30, 2015 18:19
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Fat Samurai posted:A couple of posts in the Grognard Games thread made me wonder. Are there any wargames about WWI? Trench warfare doesn't seem a good setting to base a game on. There's a squad-level game called Red Poppies that's gotten some good reviews.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:20
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