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Ligur posted:Anyway it's a bit of a myth that countries like Finland are super wealthy, which is an attitude adopted from the 70s and 80s, we're certainly not. Our salaries are low, our taxes are either 1st, 2nd or 3rd highest in the world depending on who counts, our cost of living is in the top 10 of the world year in year out, we're in an a 8 year recession with no growth in sight, we have 400 000+ unemployed, a stifling bureaucracy that chases entrepreneurs and well employed young adults out of the country, and we must constantly take more debt to run our public sector while being forced to cut on stuff like "education" and "health-care". This is not some utopian paradise where money grows in trees: the truth is, we're in poo poo. *World's tiniest violin*
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Sep 30, 2015 14:35
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solution: greece can be replaced with new country of refugeestan
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Sep 30, 2015 15:30
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steinrokkan posted:*World's tiniest violin* The idea that Europe has problems on a level that would prohibit them from taking refugees or that taking in refugees has even a noticeable effect on the quality of life of an average European long-term is ludicrous. You have to be a massive entitled pussy to consider not taking in refugees over the minuscule effect, considering what the rest of the world is dealing with. I haven't seen anyone actually posit what will happen, THE actual concrete widespread influence having a million or few million more people will actually have on a large scale and why it is enough of a problem to not take in refugees. Because I don't think you can find a single news article that doesn't cite problems just nothing that serves as an excuse why the most prosperous continent in the world should close its borders. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 16:13
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Dunno guys. Last year when Finland had an all time low year in two decades or something, Finland still received more asylum seekers per capita than France, Italy or UK and we were a middle of the pack EU country (I don't think anyone should compare anything to Germany or Sweden), and this has been the trend through the 2010s. I think we've carried our load as much as you can except so far. DarkCrawler, you know where to find our budget. Let's say the projection of 30k asylum seekers arrive this year, which would be a net negative of about half a billion euros if you count their upkeep and only that and no other expenses. Where do you take this money out of? Aalto Yliopisto? They will reduce their funding 100mil+ a year for a while now, leaving about 1000 people unemployed AFAIK. Health-care? Reduce welfare benefits? Raise taxes even more even though we are already top 3 world leaders? You make it sound like a piece of cake we can do while whistling.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:04
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Ligur posted:Finland, the economic powerhouse that smashes even Germany. I don't know what to say. This is so bizarre. I couldn't find a single list that ranks Finland over Germany though. Anyway it's a bit of a myth that countries like Finland are super wealthy, which is an attitude adopted from the 70s and 80s, we're certainly not. Our salaries are low, our taxes are either 1st, 2nd or 3rd highest in the world depending on who counts, our cost of living is in the top 10 of the world year in year out, we're in an a 8 year recession with no growth in sight, we have 400 000+ unemployed, a stifling bureaucracy that chases entrepreneurs and well employed young adults out of the country, and we must constantly take more debt to run our public sector while being forced to cut on stuff like "education" and "health-care". This is not some utopian paradise where money grows in trees: the truth is, we're in poo poo. Finland had a higher GDP/c in 2014 in every list available on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita Also, I don't even know what to call what you are doing right now. Maybe insanity? You live in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, enjoying possibly the highest development, social justice and social mobility in the world. You have access to the best education, the best medical care and the best career opportunities in all of human history, out of all generations. Crime and mortality is at a historic low, scientific progress is accelerating at an insane speed. Your environment is in comparatively good condition and your society is very happy and stable, while also flexible, innovative and forward thinking at the same time. Highest quality of life in all of human history with substantial improvements coming in the near future. Ant yet, here you are, bitching how poor you are. Here are the words you were looking for "Being born in Finland is mega awesome and I'm mega lucky. It still could be better. I don't think we are heading in the right direction and I like how country X is doing it more, but nevertheless, I enjoy living in the best parts of the planet and I will complain with more humility in the future about how lovely everything around me is. Heil Hitler."
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Sep 30, 2015 18:13
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Just pass a mandate that every refugee to Finland must buy a Nokia phone as soon as he makes enough money to afford it. That will either help you economically, or, more likely, divert the refugees to a less draconian country.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:23
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steinrokkan posted:Just pass a mandate that every refugee to Finland must buy a Nokia phone as soon as he makes enough money to afford it.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:30
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waitwhatno posted:Finland had a higher GDP/c in 2014 in every list available on wikipedia I was probably looking at PPP. quote:Also, I don't even know what to call what you are doing right now. Maybe insanity? You live in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, enjoying possibly the highest development, social justice and social mobility in the world. You have access to the best education, the best medical care and the best career opportunities in all of human history, out of all generations. Crime and mortality is at a historic low, scientific progress is accelerating at an insane speed. Your environment is in comparatively good condition and your society is very happy and stable, while also flexible, innovative and forward thinking at the same time. Highest quality of life in all of human history with substantial improvements coming in the near future. Ant yet, here you are, bitching how poor you are. Hahaha, do you live here, what the gently caress are you talking about? Apart from nominal GDP (everything of which is spent to an extent we have to take loans we can't probably pay back, ever), the education is good but worth poo poo when talking about non-OECD immigrants as they still do not get educated, we do not have much in the way of career opportunities as you should know at this point, our public health-care has turned into poo poo in a matter of two decades, crime and mortality are low but that doesn't mean we can support an unlimited flow of Somalians or Iraqis as it has nothing to do with it, our society is so far from flexible or forward thinking: you need to find some economically mired East-European former Soviet satellite to find a comparison and so on. edit: holy hell, he's talking about the same dream land the human smugglers sold to the asylum seekers, the land of bounty where everyone gets a job, a car, an apartment and a lot of money by just being here, you should go preach your message to the hundreds of thousands of unemployed, pensioners and students living below the poverty line and eating potato peels, I'm sure they'd appreciate you insulting them Ligur fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 18:38
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I'm not sure Ligur actually lives in Finland since none of my Finnish friends have ever complained out anything but the weather just being poo poo for all eternatiy.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:43
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Ligur posted:Dunno guys. Last year when Finland has an all time low year since 1999 or something, Finland still received more asylum seekers per capita than France, Italy or UK and we were a middle of the pack EU country in respect to pure numbers. (I don't think anyone should compare anything to Germany or Sweden) and this has been the trend through the 2010s. I think we've carried our load as much as you can except so far. It's a piece of cake we can do while whistling compared to the other countries that are dealing with the crisis right now with far greater financial and political damage to them. We might have to take five and half billion in easy loans from who even knows anymore instead of five billion, that is not going to end Finland. It's not even going to make much of a difference in the great scheme of things. Yeah, I stack that against millions of human lives (if the quota plan was adopted in greater numbers there would have to be two million refugees for that kind of number to end up in Finland) and I really don't see the difficulty there. But the actual political and economic cost of just closing the borders would be even bigger. Yes, it sucks that Syrian Civil War is happening, but that's the price you pay when you interact with global community, create rules to help refugees because you yourself produce them, make a giant effort to get everyone to obey those rules and nag to everyone who doesn't obey those rules...people expect you to obey those rules. Do you know why Russia or the Gulf States aren't dealing with a refugee crisis right now? Because they're dystopian dictatorship hellholes. They don't put this stuff on their websites. Can you imagine the international bitching that Europe would have directed to Turkey or Lebanon had they closed their borders from Syrian refugees? You don't get to constantly demand others to do something and then not do it yourself and maintain credibility. The international damage and humanitarian catastrophe that scrapping all refugee conventions in the midst of the Syrian Civil War because Europe, the most prosperous continent that has ever existed, doesn't feel it can take care of fraction of the refugees would be monumental. Think about it for a second. Do you think China would be happy that its access to cheap oil is even more threatened? Do you think United States, Turkey, the Arab countries, Israel, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, India and who knows who else will be happy with this entirely new shitstorm on their backyards? Do you think the few allies we have on the ground, the Free Syrian Army and the Kurds would just love that? Russia wouldn't use it to its advantage there and elsewhere? UNHCR administers about 14.5 million people. UNRWA five million more. Because neither organization would exist anymore and no country would have obligations to host any refugees either way. It would be a disaster of epic proportions. What do I have to support this? Nobody who really matters is actually seriously proposing that. The European countries get what would happen, because they are controlled by educated people who despite their faults actually have to think about the big picture or they will lose a shitload of money and they hate that. Europe has spent the last 70 years crafting a massive web of international human rights legislation. I say Europe, not the world, because European diplomats did practically all the work. Nobody asked Europe to do that, but (thankfully) Europe did. And it's literally not possible for them to opt out when they're asked to take (a small part of) the responsibility and not face massive consequences. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 18:43
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DarkCrawler posted:It's a piece of cake we can do while whistling compared to the other countries that are dealing with the crisis right now with far greater financial and political damage to them. We might have to take five and half billion in easy loans from who even knows anymore instead of five billion, that is not going to end Finland. It's not even going to make much of a difference in the great scheme of things. Yeah, I stack that against millions of human lives (if the quota plan was adopted in greater numbers there would have to be two million refugees for that kind of number to end up in Finland) and I really don't see the difficulty there. Millions of human lives. Hello there in the alternate reality! Most of the people coming here are not coming from combat zones. Most come from Iraq, or Somalia. Both countries have internationally recognized safe parts, which would be most of them, where life and business runs pretty normally. If they need safety, they can relocate within the country. And the EU quota system means nothing, as it has nothing to do with how many asylum seekers we receive. You know this. Also you are well aware the majority of "asylum seekers" wandering around Europe have nothing to do with the Syrian civil war. Stop using it as an argument to anything. We're not even receiving Syrians here. quote:But the actual political and economic cost of just closing the borders would be even bigger. LOL you are buying into that "international reputation" poo poo? Look, UK has sort of "closed to borders" if you look at the small number of asylum seekers they receive per British person compared to, hell, even us. Saw them vanish down that black hole? No, you didn't. Ligur fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 18:48
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Yeah I'm going to say Ligur doesn't live in Finland, or at least anymore.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:52
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Venom Snake posted:Yeah I'm going to say Ligur doesn't live in Finland, or at least anymore. Come here and look for a job with university education on your belt and English only. In the busiest, largets city in Finland like Helsinki. You can even come from another Western country. Then see if this is the land of plenty you think after a few years.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:00
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Ligur posted:Come here and look for a job with university education on your belt and English only. In the busiest, largets city in Finland like Helsinki. You can even come from another Western country. That's some nice nationalism you got there.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:02
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CommieGIR posted:That's some nice nationalism you got there. Say what?
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Sep 30, 2015 19:03
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Ligur posted:Millions of human lives. Hello there in the alternate reality! Most of the people coming here are not coming from combat zones. And they EU quota system means nothing, as it has nothing to do with how many asylum seekers we receive. You know this. Most of the people coming to Europe are coming from combat zones. You know this. http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php Only reason why shitload of Iraqis can even get into Finland is because of the uneven distribution of refugees, which is because there is no movement towards the quota system because of the obstructionist xenophobes in EU - the anti-refugee side. Ligur posted:LOL you are buying into that "international reputation" poo poo? Look, UK has sort of "closed to borders" if you look at the tiny number of asylum seekers they receive compared to, hell, even us. ...UK is an island. Ireland has few asylum seekers either that it doesn't take voluntarily, neither does Iceland. And even UK is taking 20,000 now on its own initiative. http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/07/refugee-crisis-pushes-un-agencies-towards-bankcruptcy-live-updates Anyway, the United Lingdom has more asylum seekers per capita then Finland (173,000 existing + 20,000 coming), so once again you are...wrong. http://www.unhcr.org.uk/about-us/the-uk-and-asylum.html Ligur posted:Come here and look for a job with university education on your belt and English only. In the busiest, largets city in Finland like Helsinki. You can even come from another Western country. I've been to countries that aren't in Europe. This is definitely land of plenty. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 19:05
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Ligur posted:Come here and look for a job with university education on your belt and English only. In the busiest, largets city in Finland like Helsinki. You can even come from another Western country. Nice way to completely avoid the question. And I HAVE actually been to Helsinki and I quite enjoyed my time there. My only complaint was the weather being a tad bad.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:06
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Let's demonstrate how terribly weak and impoverished our new favourite country Finland is, using some basic data: Indicator - Finland - Germany - Hungary GDP per capita, nominal, IMF --- 49,497 --- 47,590 --- 13,881 GDP per capita, PPP adjusted, IMF --- 40,347 --- 45,888 --- 24,942 HDI --- 0.879 --- 0.911 --- 0.818 Gini, World Bank --- 26.9 --- 30.6 --- 31.2 Any gap that exists between Germany and Finland is 1) minimal 2) only due to the fact that Germany is on top of all global rankings, and Finland is trailing very slightly, while the gap between Finland and the countries of Central Europe that would suffer most from obstructions in EU refugee coordination is ENORMOUS. Stop whining, you privileged baby.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:10
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DarkCrawler posted:Most of the people coming to Europe are coming from combat zones. You know this. No they are not. Most of Iraq or Somalia are not combat zones. quote:Anyway, the United Lingdom has more asylum seekers per capita then Finland (173,000 existing + 20,000 coming), so once again you are...wrong. Annually, you pölvästi, not all in all. Finland has a comparatively short stint as asylum seeker receiving country, but during that time, we have carried our load. quote:I've been to countries that aren't in Europe. This is definitely land of plenty. Oh yeah me too. I can agree we're the land of plenty compared to Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt, Thailand or Romania, but not the land of plenty some of the people in this thread believe we are, as we're in a heap of poo poo right now.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:11
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Ligur posted:No they are not. Most of Iraq or Somalia are not combat zones. How would you know, have you ever been there?  Oh, and yes they are.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:13
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Everybody thinks their country is in a heap of poo poo at any moment, especially when they are asked to show solidarity, chill out.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:13
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CommieGIR posted:How would you know, have you ever been there? You really believe that? By all means then. Somaliland and Puntland are more or less safe, but I agree that an European traveling in Somalia (any part) is probably not going to be very safe. That the whole place is being bombed day and night with bullets whistling is total bullshit though.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:18
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Ligur posted:No they are not. Most of Iraq or Somalia are not combat zones. Literally six percent of all arrivals to Europe are from Iraq or Somalia. Do you really not know this? Ligur posted:Annually, you pölvästi, not all in all. Finland has a comparatively short stint as asylum seeker receiving country, but during that time, we have carried our load. Yes we have because our government is not incompetent enough to ignore all the legislation our country has been promoting since it has existed! And literally the only reason UK hasn't carried it's load is because it is an island. France isn't Libya or the coast of Turkey. It has voluntarily taken more refugees then Finland ever has, by any measurement. Ligur posted:Oh yeah me too. I can agree we're the land of plenty compared to Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt, Thailand or Romania, but not the land of plenty some of the people in this thread believe we are, as we're in a heap of poo poo right now. No, we're really not. The threat of war, threat of famine, internal revolts, military coups, complete country default, total political gridlock that shuts down all services, none of this is actually happening. We're not in a heap of poo poo under any definition of the word, even if we just limit it to the first world, because look at the poo poo Greece, or Italy, or Spain, or Iceland, or Ireland or Portugal have had to deal with lately.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:20
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I like how Ligur is going to keep ignoring the question because he doesn't actually live in Finland.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:24
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DarkCrawler posted:Literally six percent of all arrivals to Europe are from Iraq or Somalia. Do you really not know this? Sure I do. They just make the majority of arrivals here, where you and I live, you know. quote:Yes we have because our government is not incompetent enough to ignore all the legislation our country has been promoting since it has existed! Yet I wasn't so wrong after all, huh. quote:No, we're really not. The threat of war, threat of famine, internal revolts, military coups, complete country default, total political gridlock that shuts down all services, none of this is actually happening. You just described half the developing world, to use a bit of an hyperbole. You do realize the solution is not throwing residence permits inside Europe. Venom Snake posted:I like how Ligur is going to keep ignoring the question because he doesn't actually live in Finland. Does anyone know what the gently caress this guy is talking about unless it's trollin'?
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Sep 30, 2015 19:24
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Ligur posted:You really believe that? By all means then. Its an opinion piece. Regardless of the 'safety' of Southern Iraq, its a war zone. Sorry bud. Seriously, ISIS has several footholds in Southern Iraq.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:26
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CommieGIR posted:Its an opinion piece. Whatever, dude. I guess that makes the favelas in Brazil warzones as well.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:29
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Ligur posted:Sure I do. They just make the majority of arrivals here, where you and I live, you know. It said "Europe". "Finland" doesn't have a single letter it shares with the word. Ligur posted:Yet I wasn't so wrong after all, huh. I mean only in your fantasy, since your original post said nothing about "annually" but mentioned "the tiny number of asylum seekers they receive compared to, hell, even us" which just isn't true. Ligur posted:You just described half the developing world, to use a bit of an hyperbole. You do realize the solution is not throwing residence permits inside Europe. You do realize that none of that had nothing to do with refugees, just pointing out the fact that Finland isn't "in a heap poo poo" right now to anyone but someone who simply doesn't know what the term means. Holy poo poo there are still dudes alive who had to murder Ukrainian peasants in a pitch-dark forest with nothing but their bare hands for Finland, we aren't even "in a heap of poo poo" by Finnish standards.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:30
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Ligur posted:Does anyone know what the gently caress this guy is talking about unless it's trollin'? You don't actually seem to understand how things actually currently are in Finland, so I cast doubt on the fact you actually live there. Unless you live under a bridge or something or on a polar station.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:30
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Ligur posted:Whatever, dude. I guess that makes the favelas in Brazil warzones as well. I wasn't aware Brazil has experienced an ongoing Civil War with a religious fanatic group.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:34
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Venom Snake posted:My only complaint was the weather being a tad bad. Welcome to Northern Europe: 
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Sep 30, 2015 19:36
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Alhazred posted:Welcome to Northern Europe: Believe it or not last time I was in Norway was during winter and I thought it was beautiful (I love snow) if just kinda freezing. I just don't like freezing foggy rain. Still the people are nice and I love the food/scenery so it all balances out in my opinion.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:41
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DarkCrawler posted:Most of the people coming to Europe are coming from combat zones. You know this. Europe doesn't have any borders with combat zones, so no they're not. They are coming from safe zones, because they don't want to stay in refugee camps. I'd do the same, but Europe is not obliged to take them and it's not selfish or racist to refuse them entry.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:41
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DarkCrawler posted:I mean only in your fantasy, since your original post said nothing about "annually" but mentioned "the tiny number of asylum seekers they receive compared to, hell, even us" which just isn't true. I was referring to annual statistics in a link that clearly showed asylum seekers annually and even referred to it as such, you can't be that loving dimwitted, because I know you are not. To the tune of "Last year when Finland has an all time low year since 1999 or something, Finland still received more asylum seekers per capita than France" and so on. Venom Snake posted:You don't actually seem to understand how things actually currently are in Finland, so I cast doubt on the fact you actually live there. Unless you live under a bridge or something or on a polar station. Oh. Ok then. Perhaps I only imagine I live in Finland, but I'm actually in Australia or Bulgaria. Who can tell, after all.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:43
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Man if you think stuff is bad in Finland you should see the U.S. were there are states were it actually is bad. It's so incredibly adorable to see you be upset that people might come and have to spend time getting and  education when we can't even provide that here to our own citizens.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:45
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Finland is getting mostly Iraqis and Somalis because we don't have agreements that allow us to forcibly return people who get denied residency and because our 'How dangerous Iraq is' chart is way more generous than rest of the Europe's. Anyway, officials have suspended asylum granting to Iraqis and Somalis until they have updated the procedure to match rest of EU. http://yle.fi/uutiset/iraqi_refugees_on_hunger_strike_to_protest_stricter_asylum_guidelines/8344387
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Sep 30, 2015 19:56
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Several news during the 24 hours "asylum seekers" have been harassing locals and complain about the food they receive (the same food Finnish military conscripts, schoold children, myself etc. are accustomed to eating). The feeling of entitlement these people feel as opposed to locals boggles the mind.
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Sep 30, 2015 20:03
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Go shoot up a youth camp run by the party in power, Breivik.
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Sep 30, 2015 20:06
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Ligur posted:Several news during the 24 hours "asylum seekers" have been harassing locals and complain about the food they receive (the same food Finnish military conscripts, schoold children, myself etc. are accustomed to eating). Ungrateful ingrates, send em back! We have to stop them before this happens again!: Ligur posted:Hmmm Swedish politics dribbling over to our side as 6-8 "Swedes" (Somalis) gang rape a woman on a Viking Line cruise.
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Sep 30, 2015 20:07
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CommieGIR posted:Ungrateful ingrates, send em back! So do you honestly feel these folks are entitled to complain about the food locals eat? If so, why? I'm not not making this stuff up up after all. I wish I was, but there are protests over the food provided, and the Helsinki police are in high alert because reported crime has taken a turn for the really worse during the last few weeks around refugee centers. I don't enjoy this, FYI, I don't want it to be so. It just is anyway. Should we just shrug it off, or what? Unfortunately, I was too right about the Swedish policy ending up an issue with countries next to their border that had no part in the whole mess to begin with. Is that wrong, if so, why? As Sweden became saturated, they are now crossing the border, just like I said. The problem with this prediction is... exactly what? It was true after all 
Ligur fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 20:12
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