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Godholio posted:Woah, I assumed it was only short-run or specialty vehicles that were outsourced like that. Magna Steyr makes the RCZ for Peugeot, the G-Class and a couple of Mini models. Outsourced cars from legitimate manufacturers (Magna Steyr, Valmet, Heuliez RIP) are common and not any worse from OEM produced poo poo. I would not be surprised if Apple went in this direction. Magna has a lot of engineering resources, as well.
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Sep 28, 2015 20:06
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I've seen a number of articles that debunk the idea of electric vehicles as being "zero-emission", by including the emission impact of the generation of that electricity (measuring "from the smokestack"). That's good and righteous, we should consider the full impact of things like that. These articles often also compare to the emissions of internal-combustion vehicles, but they only compare *tailpipe emissions* of the ICE cars. Does anyone know of a comparison that measures "from the oil well" for ICE vehicles, including emissions impact of processing and transportation of the fuel? I'm "in the green" because of California's power mix either way, but it seems somewhat disingenuous to claim to be looking at the "whole picture" when omitting the production impact for one side of the comparison.
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Sep 28, 2015 20:06
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Ranter posted:If I want to learn about the current all electric vehicles on the market in the USA now, their pros vs. cons, general 'here's what they don't tell you about EVs' information, buyers guides, maintenance guides etc, should I read x-number of pages in this thread or is there a recommended resource elsewhere online? ilkhan posted:Do you want a pure EV that never uses gas, do you want a plug-in hybrid that uses gas and a power plug, or do you want a not-plug-in hybrid that only takes gas? Additionally, the market for EVs require further inquiries like how much daily road travel will you need? How big of a vehicle are you looking at (if size is a thing)? Some of these questions will rule out everything but a particular model. Others will give you a number of options to work with. Until the next big change in battery construction, however, this is the nature of the EV market.
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Sep 28, 2015 20:11
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Subjunctive posted:I've seen a number of articles that debunk the idea of electric vehicles as being "zero-emission", by including the emission impact of the generation of that electricity (measuring "from the smokestack"). That's good and righteous, we should consider the full impact of things like that. These articles often also compare to the emissions of internal-combustion vehicles, but they only compare *tailpipe emissions* of the ICE cars. keep in mind that huge fossil fuel plants are tremendously more efficient than small ICEs
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Sep 28, 2015 20:22
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thesurlyspringKAA posted:keep in mind that huge fossil fuel plants are tremendously more efficient than small ICEs Sure, I don't want to do the math myself. http://www.apep.uci.edu/3/ResearchSummaries/pdf/SustainableTransportation/WTW_vehicle_greenhouse_gases_Public.pdf looks good, though I'm not sure how it's amortizing vehicle manufacturing impact. It basically means that a battery-powered EV on a 33% renewable California grid produces the same GHG as a 25 mpg ICE car -- before the ICE actually burns any fuel. Not much better for a 40 mpg car. Wish the raw numbers were there to figure out what the mpg equivalent is for this case.
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Sep 28, 2015 20:38
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ilkhan posted:Do you want a pure EV that never uses gas, do you want a plug-in hybrid that uses gas and a power plug, or do you want a not-plug-in hybrid that only takes gas? Thwomp posted:Additionally, the market for EVs require further inquiries like how much daily road travel will you need? How big of a vehicle are you looking at (if size is a thing)? Pure EV, no hybrid/gas at all. I travel 28 miles one direction to work (which currently has many charging stations), and don't go on road trips or drive further than that in one day. My wife has a Volkwagon GTI that can be used if we're road tripping. Since most EVs seem to average between 70 - 92 miles per charge, I thought now is the time to start looking. Tesla is still out of my price range, but I don't want to wait until 2017 for whatever they come up with. Today I went to the car dealerships and test drove the Mercedes B-class, BMW i3 and Kia Soul EV. I definitely like the size of the Mercedes and Kia, but I preferred the 'feel' and performance of the BMW more. I don't want a coupe though so that kind of rules out the i3. The B-class didn't seem to have really strong regenerative braking that stopped your car pretty quickly when you remove your foot from the accelerator pedal. The Kia allows you to switch it on or off, and the BMW seemed to always have it on for permanent '1 foot driving'. I hear Kia are lovely quality in general though, so I'm leaning towards the Mercedes. It has a really nice interior too, much better quality than the wifey's VW. I'm looking for a good resource online that is kinda like a one-stop-shop for all things EV. I was wondering what maintenance plans look like for new EVs, what warranties cover, 'gotchas' that people don't consider when they buy one, things of this nature. For example the Kia salesman said the only maintenance they do is rotate your tires and check the battery, but they don't even bother with fluids until years later. Bald Stalin fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 22:55
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I don't know if price is an issue, but there are off lease Leaf's with under 20k miles all over the place where I live for under 10k. If it would work for me I'd buy one.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:21
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Ribsauce posted:I don't know if price is an issue, but there are off lease Leaf's with under 20k miles all over the place where I live for under 10k. If it would work for me I'd buy one. Same here. Apparently when Georgia cut their (admittedly really nice) incentive program, the local Nissan lots have a poo poo-ton of turned-in Leafs and brand new ones sitting around the lot. My lovely apartment complex won't install chargers because we have new owners that are cutting everything back and the only "option" is to sneak up to a 120v outlet outside or in a private garage to charge up. Without level 2 support I don't want to own an electric, otherwise I would've snagged a used Leaf long ago. Subjunctive posted:Sure, I don't want to do the math myself. I'm with you on questioning the manufacturing impact - they're claiming that the BEVs use significantly more CO2 emissions to build which I'm kind of struggling with. Yes, many batteries are manufactured in China and other low-cost countries before being shipped to the US, but car parts are manufactured everywhere in the world so I'm wondering why the BEVs are getting poo poo on. It kinda smells of a self-reporting thing where Ford, VW et. al. are telling you how much effort they need to make a vehicle like that, and I get the impression that these companies are not happy about producing electrics in the first place. Kinda like asking an angry kid how much effort he's putting into raking leaves when his dad forced him to do it (a LOT, no dad, gently caress you!) Also, I was always under the impression that when night falls and the BEVs are set to charge, that they're using power at a significantly lower demand point. From what I understand it's tough to bring a lot of the larger fossil fuel plans on- or off-line, which is why we have things like Pump-Storage Hydroelectric systems. So in reality, the BEVs are leeching off of a system that is already generating pollution 24/7, and until BEV use gets to the point where drat near everyone is charging at night and they need to bring another fossil-fuel generator online, BEVs are getting a "free ride" on the existing pollution from power plant generation. To be frank, I'm making GBS threads on this paper with nothing more than a "gut feeling" so feel free to tell me to piss off, but I think that the paper isn't considering the fact that a power plant can't be turned on or off like a standard ICE automobile, and that's kind of a stretch.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:03
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Um, just a nitpick, isn't the i3 a five-door?
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Sep 29, 2015 01:04
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Ripoff posted:Also, I was always under the impression that when night falls and the BEVs are set to charge, that they're using power at a significantly lower demand point. From what I understand it's tough to bring a lot of the larger fossil fuel plans on- or off-line, which is why we have things like Pump-Storage Hydroelectric systems. So in reality, the BEVs are leeching off of a system that is already generating pollution 24/7, and until BEV use gets to the point where drat near everyone is charging at night and they need to bring another fossil-fuel generator online, BEVs are getting a "free ride" on the existing pollution from power plant generation. As far I understand it, anyway.
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Sep 29, 2015 01:22
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ilkhan posted:Nuke plants are really slow to throttle up/down. Fossil fuel plants are really quick to do so. Reading wikipedia (I had no idea it was called "Load following") I'm starting to see I'm a bit full of poo poo when it comes to the fossil fuel power plants being slow to throttle down. So yeah, if you're in an area where there are load-following plants then the battery CO2 use is probably a fair comparison to make. That said, I have no goddamned clue how much of my power is generated from fossil fuels vs. renewables, and if those fossil fuels are base load, peaking, following, etc. so I'm probably not the person to be talking at this point. I still want to buy a good EV, though. Come on Tesla, have that Model 3 out by 2017 please. 
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Sep 29, 2015 01:34
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MrYenko posted:Um, just a nitpick, isn't the i3 a five-door? I don't count tiny handle-less doors as real doors 
Bald Stalin fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 01:35
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ilkhan posted:Nuke plants are really slow to throttle up/down. Fossil fuel plants are really quick to do so. Yes which is why nuke plants generally run at 100% capacity and everything else shifts to accommodate
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Sep 29, 2015 01:44
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Ranter posted:I don't count tiny handle-less doors as real doors Fair, but it's as much of a coupe as this thing is.  Ripoff posted:Reading wikipedia (I had no idea it was called "Load following") I'm starting to see I'm a bit full of poo poo when it comes to the fossil fuel power plants being slow to throttle down. So yeah, if you're in an area where there are load-following plants then the battery CO2 use is probably a fair comparison to make. That said, I have no goddamned clue how much of my power is generated from fossil fuels vs. renewables, and if those fossil fuels are base load, peaking, following, etc. so I'm probably not the person to be talking at this point. Florida Power and Light, just as an example, uses nuclear and combined-cycle natural gas plants for base load (most of the oil-fired plants are gone now, I think the conventional units at Turkey Point are the last ones in the system,) and are still using Pratt and Whitney FT4s (also running on NG) for peak-load following. Engines that were first run in the early fifties. 
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Sep 29, 2015 01:51
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Ribsauce posted:I don't know if price is an issue, but there are off lease Leaf's with under 20k miles all over the place where I live for under 10k. If it would work for me I'd buy one. I bought a 2012 Mitsubishi i-MIEV with 4000 miles for 8200, tax included.
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Sep 29, 2015 17:05
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Source4Leko posted:I bought a 2012 Mitsubishi i-MIEV with 4000 miles for 8200, tax included. Counterpoint: It's an i-MIEV
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Sep 29, 2015 20:30
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This is true. But it gets me to and from work and around town. So it's doing its job just fine for 2.5 cents per mile.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:55
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I've had my Leaf for 2 years now and my lease is up. They offered me $6500 off the buyout and I'll be buying it at that price. In total I'll have paid $24,000 for a brand new, fully loaded Leaf. I've had a second vehicle this entire time and my family has put more miles on it when their cars have been out of service, then I've done for joyrides or trips. Selling that to get rid of the insurance/registration costs and will just rent if I need. Maintenance is basically rotating tires and checking for water in brake fluid, well all the regular car stuff minus anything to do with the motor. Buying a used one, I'd look at the battery capacity. There are ODB tools that you can use to check the Leaf's battery. Heat really destroys them and you should consider what the battery will hold when it is really depleted (figure 60-70% of advertised in normal heat). Warranty on them is way lower than what a new buyer would be expecting, so don't expect that range or that it has a fresh battery. Sounds like you have quick chargers and a short enough route that at the worst, you should still be okay. This is were much of the car's value seems to get lost for good reason, so don't miss that on those really cheap used EVs. Also note that a good 50-60% of my range is gone when it gets to the coldest here (-30 to -50 with wind) between the heater and general loss of about 25-30% due to cold.
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Sep 30, 2015 01:06
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So an old used leaf is going about 10 miles in the cold with the heater on?
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Sep 30, 2015 02:24
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oops wrong thread.
Applebees Appetizer fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 02:39
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Model X launch is in an hour and 20 minutes: http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx Livestream will be there later.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:41
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MattD1zzl3 posted:So an old used leaf is going about 10 miles in the cold with the heater on? Can't imagine it is much more than 25-30 miles if it is really toast. I've yet to see any loss, however.
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Sep 30, 2015 04:08
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If you live in a place where it's typically cold enough to significantly impact range from any one charge, it probably won't be hot enough to damage the battery very swiftly. If you're buying a used Leaf in Nevada, and bringing it to alaska, that might give you a serious problem.
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Sep 30, 2015 04:22
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pun pundit posted:If you live in a place where it's typically cold enough to significantly impact range from any one charge, it probably won't be hot enough to damage the battery very swiftly. If you're buying a used Leaf in Nevada, and bringing it to alaska, that might give you a serious problem. Nevada gets pretty cold at night.
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Sep 30, 2015 04:24
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drunkill posted:Model X launch is in an hour and 20 minutes: http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx 28 min late... still no stream. I guess Tesla has a reputation for late live streaming events, but come on!
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Sep 30, 2015 04:28
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I-MievsTaima posted:Counterpoint: It's an i-MIEV i-MIEVs are literally a car from a 1970s scifi movie. How is the battery degradation compared to the leafs(leaves)?
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Sep 30, 2015 04:52
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Stream started, finally.
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Sep 30, 2015 04:55
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Five thousand pound towing capacity on the Model X, neato.
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Sep 30, 2015 05:16
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KakerMix posted:Five thousand pound towing capacity on the Model X, neato. How much would this affect mileage per charge?
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Sep 30, 2015 05:21
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Ranter posted:How much would this affect mileage per charge? Didn't say, they pulled up a Model X pulling an Airstream trailer with some things on it, and out came 7 people and a whole bunch of bags and luggage, plus a stroller. The high-end Model X can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds though
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Sep 30, 2015 05:24
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KakerMix posted:Didn't say, they pulled up a Model X pulling an Airstream trailer with some things on it, and out came 7 people and a whole bunch of bags and luggage, plus a stroller. The high-end Model X can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds though I know I watched it, and it was conveniently not mentioned.
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Sep 30, 2015 05:25
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I'm curious as to whether they'll be able to keep the same level of safety for the Model 3, given that it'll be a much cheaper car.
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Sep 30, 2015 06:43
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Platystemon posted:Nevada gets pretty cold at night. Depends on area of the state and what your definition of cold is. In Vegas it's only cold at night from November to February or March.
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Sep 30, 2015 06:51
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What is this "bio defense mode" I keep hearing people talk about? Nothing seems to be really out yet.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:51
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Top Hats Monthly posted:What is this "bio defense mode" I keep hearing people talk about? Nothing seems to be really out yet.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:58
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Anybody pointed out that it looks like a Pontiac Aztek yet?
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Sep 30, 2015 18:59
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Top Hats Monthly posted:What is this "bio defense mode" I keep hearing people talk about? Nothing seems to be really out yet. The HVAC system is capable of maintaining positive pressure in the cabin, which would mean that air is escaping any unsealed crack and not allowing anything to enter.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:00
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Top Hats Monthly posted:What is this "bio defense mode" I keep hearing people talk about? Nothing seems to be really out yet. The software in the car has a 'bio defense' mode with some sort of bio hazard graphic button displayed on screen. It's just a high end air filtration system. He started the whole bit by pointing out 'statistics' about how air quality in major cities takes months/years off your life e.g. Beijing is 22 months or some poo poo. Then he showed how their air filter is bigger.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:02
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Anybody pointed out that it looks like a Pontiac Aztek yet? I dunno--the front of the Model X doesn't look like it's been taken off and reattached upside down.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:02
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Subjunctive posted:I've seen a number of articles that debunk the idea of electric vehicles as being "zero-emission", by including the emission impact of the generation of that electricity (measuring "from the smokestack"). That's good and righteous, we should consider the full impact of things like that. These articles often also compare to the emissions of internal-combustion vehicles, but they only compare *tailpipe emissions* of the ICE cars. You're describing the kind of astroturfing poo poo that oil interests do in order to spread FUD on EVs. Wheel to well, even in places where power sources are from coal and oil, EVs are still better overall, and there are two important facts that make this true even if using a coal fired plant that ignites the coal with oil and baby seal souls actually did turn out to be less efficient: 1) As coal fired baby seal soul power plants are shut down and turned down in favor of cleaner energy sources, your EV still uses the same electricity and requires no modification or replacement 2) The coal fired baby seal soul power plant is not located at street level, and on the large scale that it generates power, it is both more efficient with how much energy it can get out of one lb of baby seal soul-infused oilcoal, how much pollution it generates per joule of energy created, and what pollution it does generate is not being spewed at street level and giving everyone asthma. So yeah basically the wheel to well argument being used against EVs is a lazy tactic used by gish gallopers or astroturfers who are speaking to a particularly eager and gullible audience. It doesn't hold up at all.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:03
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