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Tatum Girlparts posted:My point is that the base concept of sexualities here is different, where one involves a human being that has the ability to consent to sex at some point in some hypothetical, and one involves one that cannot. The reason there's not news about rapists all the time (except for all the times there are I guess) is because we don't have people going 'you know, rapists are bad, but the problem is they literally can't help but want to rape'. I didn't know you were thought police. Do you understand the difference between "wants" and "does"? 30-50% of the population have rape fantasies.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:11
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OwlFancier posted:There are people who say that though? And they're loving abhorrent? Ok I'm not sure if I'm not being clear here or what. People, in this thread and elsewhere, say that these people are hardwired like any other sexuality. The problem with that is if that's the case then pretty much nothing will work for them sexually other than sexualizing children and that's probably not an awesome idea. No one, other than I guess absolute lunatics, have claimed that rape is a sexual orientation, and the literal only way someone can enjoy sex without having a whole host of other mental illnesses is to rape someone. I'm not somehow arguing that rape culture doesn't exist or whatever, I'm saying there isn't anyone who matters making a case that a rapist literally has no choice in wanting to rape people and only rape people.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:15
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Ok I'm not sure if I'm not being clear here or what. Therefore what? I don't think your average rapist has a sexual identity any healthier than a pedophile's.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:17
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Ok I'm not sure if I'm not being clear here or what. Sexualizing children is gross but it isn't a moral issue until someone gets hurt by it, it's not a good idea but I don't see really what the alternative is. You can't identify paedophiles on sight, they sort of have to out themselves to some degree. They aren't going to do that voluntarily if they think it'll get them killed or make them nonfunctional in society. You also can't really identify them other than when they commit crimes without an understanding of why they occur and how they function, which is also incompatible with the whole shoot/imprison them on sight approach. So a purely punitive approach is limited to waiting for paedophiles to molest children, waiting to learn they've done that (as they're probably not advertising it) and then killing them or locking them up. Which doesn't really stop children being molested, because you have this big lag time between when they become detectable and when you can do something about it, even with hypothetical anti-pedo death squads. Harsh punishment and little else just isn't a good crime prevention measure. It never has been. There's always social factors which cause people to commit crime, if child molestation is a big problem (and I'd say it probably is, certainly big enough to warrant a new approach) then it should get the best possible opposition we can give it, yes? That's going to have to involve figuring out why people do it and why they think it's ok to do it, and treating those problems. Just shooting everyone who does it doesn't actually change anything, because people don't learn by being shot or having other people shot. Except possibly how to be less obvious. So with that in mind I think a necessary first step is to start treating paedophilia like a mental illness rather than a crime. Child molestation is the crime but simply feeling an inclination towards it is mental illness and should be treated like it. Secure hospitals are appropriate for people with violent fantasies but it should be with the goal of understanding what causes the illness and how to prevent it forming, and controlling the symptoms. There are lots of mental illnesses which can lead people to become violent and they aren't effectively treated by shooting people for having them. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Oct 2, 2015 |
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Oct 2, 2015 20:24
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Ok I'm not sure if I'm not being clear here or what. I'm sure there is a compulsive rapist out there though that feels that way. He's probably locked up for being a criminal sociopath. Any pedophile rapists probably are too. But here's the thing, guy in the OP aside, there are in theory many poeple out there attracted to children in a way they don't like but can't control who never do anything about it. It doesn't matter why or how they came to be this way, they are out there. Maybe they are suffering OCD like this guy: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culturally-speaking/201212/could-i-be-pedophile-the-worst-kind-ocd or maybe uncle jerry touched them and when he got out of jail and tried to visit something inside just snapped. Whatever it is, when we stigmatize them to the degree that people are openly calling for murder it makes it hard or impossible for them to seek help.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:25
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I'll say iy again: realdolls for pedos. How much does a year of therapy cost? And what is that even going to accomplish? Pray the pedo away? Naw. Just give them a sexual outlet if they're willing to come out and identify. It's gross but it's way less gross than loving kids. For the price of a year of useless therapy you could buy them a nice full featured realistic fuckdoll that will last...I don't actually know what the average mileage you can get out of a realdoll is but probably at least 5 years. Then if they diddle a real kid, harsh penalties obv.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:29
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Robotnik Nudes posted:I'll say iy again: realdolls for pedos. How much does a year of therapy cost? And what is that even going to accomplish? Pray the pedo away? Naw. Just give them a sexual outlet if they're willing to come out and identify. It's gross but it's way less gross than loving kids. For the price of a year of useless therapy you could buy them a nice full featured realistic fuckdoll that will last...I don't actually know what the average mileage you can get out of a realdoll is but probably at least 5 years. Aren't you basing your assessment of the effectiveness of therapy on the reports of one guy who wasn't even a doctor working in one location? Not exactly the best source to base a policy on.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:43
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MGTen posted:So, I used to work for a non-profit that provided the services people claim don’t exist and don’t work. Specifically, I was a live-in caregiver for a group home for pedophiles and sex offenders. I worked there for a couple of years before burning out and quitting--strangely, working with those people all day is emotionally exhausting--but it did give me a bit of insight into the actual way treatment functions. Dude. Thank you for sharing, but holy gently caress.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:45
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Robotnik Nudes posted:I'll say iy again: realdolls for pedos. How much does a year of therapy cost? And what is that even going to accomplish? Pray the pedo away? Naw. Just give them a sexual outlet if they're willing to come out and identify. It's gross but it's way less gross than loving kids. For the price of a year of useless therapy you could buy them a nice full featured realistic fuckdoll that will last...I don't actually know what the average mileage you can get out of a realdoll is but probably at least 5 years. OwlFancier posted:So a purely punitive approach is limited to waiting for paedophiles to molest children, waiting to learn they've done that (as they're probably not advertising it) and then killing them or locking them up. Which doesn't really stop children being molested, because you have this big lag time between when they become detectable and when you can do something about it, even with hypothetical anti-pedo death squads.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It'll prevent further acts of molestation by that pedophile though. So does institutionalization. Somewhat more expensive, perhaps, but possibly more productive. "Welp, he raped a kid, shoot him. Why does this keep happening?" seems like an unhelpful approach.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:49
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This was link to me some time ago, found it again now: http://www.upworthy.com/this-19-year-old-pedophile-has-never-gone-near-a-child-and-he-needs-you-to-hear-his-story It's a podcast about a kid who figured out he's a paedo, went to a shrink about it, and the shrink literally not believing him first and then telling him "Nope! can't help you".
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Oct 2, 2015 20:54
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Nevvy Z posted:Aren't you basing your assessment of the effectiveness of therapy on the reports of one guy who wasn't even a doctor working in one location? Not exactly the best source to base a policy on. More on the simply fact you can't therapize away someone's sexual orientation. Also just telling them day after day year after year to repress it, don't think about it don't do anything is probably not the healthiest thing around. A Buttery Pastry posted:All I see that doing is helping the pedophile bring their urges to the front, at which point a lot of little kids are suddenly "trying to explore their sexuality".
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Oct 2, 2015 20:55
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A big problem with pedophiles sis they're still human and still have a need to sexual release/satisfaction on some level and denying them that entirely isn't going to help the issue and probably just exacerbates it. There needs to be some kind of safe socially responsible release valve that doesn't harm irl kids, like the production of irl child porn does.I dunno, just seems to me like, gross and weird as it sounds, loli manga and kiddie sexbots are the sane socially responsible solution, especially when the other proposed options seem to be either useless or probably human rights violations.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:58
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Robotnik Nudes posted:More on the simply fact you can't therapize away someone's sexual orientation. Also just telling them day after day year after year to repress it, don't think about it don't do anything is probably not the healthiest thing around. I think there's a difference between stigmatizing someone's sexuality and getting them not to act on it. The whole comparison to pray the gay away rubbish is not quite accurate because the goal there is to stop people thinking about gay stuff and telling them they'll be tortured for eternity if they do. Also they're not psychologists and have no idea how people work. There's a difference between that and "Your sexual proclivity is fine, it's going to make your life hard but there's nothing wrong with feeling the way you feel, but you can't under any circumstance act on those feelings with a child. You as a person are not evil, so long as you don't hurt people. Other than that you can do whatever you want, same as the rest of us." Which is entirely true, it's gross but as you say, making people feel like they're satan incarnate for something they probably can't help feeling is not a constructive way to treat them, and is going to do nothing to encourage them to integrate with and value the esteem of society. Without that integration they have minimal need to follow the customs of that society and are more likely to end up raping some poor kid. You may not be able to change people's sexuality but you don't need to, you just need them to be somewhat celibate, which is something people are more than capable of doing.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:00
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Robotnik Nudes posted:This does not seem to follow but you're welcome to try to explain what you mean. OwlFancier posted:So does institutionalization. Somewhat more expensive, perhaps, but possibly more productive.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:01
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Tell me how institutionalization of child molesters prevents child molestation, where their death does not. Study and research on them, their lives, their brains, their genetics, their psychology, can help to identify why paedophilia exists and why people feel able to commit child rape, with a view to finding preventative measures for both. Shooting them doesn't really do any of that. The considered response to a recurring problem should not be to keep shoving it under the rug, it should be to figure out why it keeps recurring.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:03
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The connection between children and sex is going to be even more strongly pronounced in someone who routinely gently caress a child sex doll. Pretty sure the connection between kids and sex is already strongly pronounced for people who have an orientation towards sex with kids.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:07
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Robotnik Nudes posted:Pretty sure the connection between kids and sex is already strongly pronounced for people who have an orientation towards sex with kids. Do you have any sort of studies that suggest throwing a child sex toy at pedophiles reduces the likelihood of their committing an offense?
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Oct 2, 2015 21:10
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Robotnik Nudes posted:A big problem with pedophiles sis they're still human and still have a need to sexual release/satisfaction on some level and denying them that entirely isn't going to help the issue and probably just exacerbates it. There needs to be some kind of safe socially responsible release valve that doesn't harm irl kids, like the production of irl child porn does.I dunno, just seems to me like, gross and weird as it sounds, loli manga and kiddie sexbots are the sane socially responsible solution, especially when the other proposed options seem to be either useless or probably human rights violations. FWIW apparently the majority of them aren't exclusively attracted to children, so it's not like they can't live normal lives. The ones that can't, welp. I've no idea. OwlFancier posted:Study and research on them, their lives, their brains, their genetics, their psychology, can help to identify why paedophilia exists and why people feel able to commit child rape, with a view to finding preventative measures for both. This, really, is what needs to happen before kiddie sexbots. Then we can decide if that's a solution or not.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:11
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SedanChair posted:Do you have any sort of studies that suggest throwing a child sex toy at pedophiles reduces the likelihood of their committing an offense? I don't think there's probably been any research on it, which makes my conjecture as good as anybody else's.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:11
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SedanChair posted:Do you have any sort of studies that suggest throwing a child sex toy at pedophiles reduces the likelihood of their committing an offense? quote:Most significantly, they found that the number of reported cases of child sex abuse dropped markedly immediately after the ban on sexually explicit materials was lifted in 1989. In both Denmark and Japan, the situation is similar: Child sex abuse was much lower than it was when availability of child pornography was restricted. https://www.springer.com/about+springer/media/springer+select?SGWID=0-11001-6-1042321-0 Here's one. Of course, for every one like this I find, I can probably also find one that says the exact opposite, which is why it's crucial more research on this gets done.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:16
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Robotnik Nudes posted:A big problem with pedophiles sis they're still human and still have a need to sexual release/satisfaction on some level and denying them that entirely isn't going to help the issue and probably just exacerbates it. There needs to be some kind of safe socially responsible release valve that doesn't harm irl kids, like the production of irl child porn does.I dunno, just seems to me like, gross and weird as it sounds, loli manga and kiddie sexbots are the sane socially responsible solution, especially when the other proposed options seem to be either useless or probably human rights violations. Replace the word paedophile with psychopath and loving kids with murdering people. Should we provide psychopaths with real dolls to disembowel and stab? Slasher flicks for them to fantasize about? A paedophile, whether they offend or not has a deep seated desire to cause an incredible amount of suffering to people. Children specifically. Nothing about that should be tolerated on any level. When we learn that someone has really strong urges to kill or torture people for pleasure we institutionalize them until they are deemed to not have those urges anymore whether or not they have ever killed someone. Actually you know what? Many paedophiles are worse in some respects than a psychopath. A psychopath at least understands that the victim does not enjoy what is happening to them and did not want it to happen. There are quotes here where paedophiles seem to hold the delusional belief that children want to gently caress them back.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:17
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Truga posted:FWIW apparently the majority of them aren't exclusively attracted to children, so it's not like they can't live normal lives. The ones that can't, welp. I've no idea. We don't know what causes any sexual orientation in general let alone pedophilia specifically. Understanding the causes for one sexual orientation would be tied up in understanding ALL of sexual orientation. I personally find it laughable that we'll ever develop a truly objective understanding of such, but if we do it'll happen a good long while after sex robots are on the market.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:19
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Robotnik Nudes posted:We don't know what causes any sexual orientation in general let alone pedophilia specifically. Understanding the causes for one sexual orientation would be tied up in understanding ALL of sexual orientation. I personally find it laughable that we'll ever develop a truly objective understanding of such, but if we do it'll happen a good long while after sex robots are on the market. If research shows kiddie sexbots aren't helping (and they exist, today), then that's not a solution. Sexuality doesn't matter, we just need the numbers.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:22
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OwlFancier posted:Study and research on them, their lives, their brains, their genetics, their psychology, can help to identify why paedophilia exists and why people feel able to commit child rape, with a view to finding preventative measures for both. Robotnik Nudes posted:Pretty sure the connection between kids and sex is already strongly pronounced for people who have an orientation towards sex with kids.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:23
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Truga posted:If research shows kiddie sexbots aren't helping (and they exist, today), then that's not a solution. Sexuality doesn't matter, we just need the numbers. I agree. I'm in favor of a solution, even if it feels yucky. But the post I was responding to you responding to was about trying to understand what makes pedos pedos. Tbh I don't care and doubt we can figure it out but we can at least mitigate the damage.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:25
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A Buttery Pastry posted:No one said anything about shooting. Executing them more expensively then, if you prefer?
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Oct 2, 2015 21:26
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OwlFancier posted:Executing them more expensively then, if you prefer? Also why not shooting? Firing squads are more humane, honorable and awesome than lethal injection or the chair.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:28
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Robotnik Nudes posted:I agree. I'm in favor of a solution, even if it feels yucky. But the post I was responding to you responding to was about trying to understand what makes pedos pedos. Tbh I don't care and doubt we can figure it out but we can at least mitigate the damage. You don't care enough even to familiarize yourself with existing research. Your being "in favor of a solution" amounts to nothing.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:31
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Taking your thoughts and making them actions is definitely going to create connections in the brain which didn't exist before. The inability to discern fantasy from the real deal is a very real disorder called Schizophrenia, which we do have treatment programmes for, though.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:31
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SedanChair posted:You don't care enough even to familiarize yourself with existing research. Your being "in favor of a solution" amounts to nothing. If you have some enlightening data you're welcome to come tribute it to the discussion.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:32
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Truga posted:The inability to discern fantasy from the real deal is a very real disorder called Schizophrenia, which we do have treatment programmes for, though. OwlFancier posted:Executing them more expensively then, if you prefer?
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Oct 2, 2015 21:42
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Robotnik Nudes posted:If you have some enlightening data you're welcome to come tribute it to the discussion. Picture me gesturing broadly to literature in the mental health disciplines and intoning "help yourself."
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Oct 2, 2015 21:42
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SedanChair posted:Picture me gesturing broadly to literature in the mental health disciplines and intoning "help yourself." That's a fancy way of saying you have no clue.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:45
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OwlFancier posted:Study and research on them, their lives, their brains, their genetics, their psychology, can help to identify why paedophilia exists and why people feel able to commit child rape, with a view to finding preventative measures for both. What if after all that we confirm what we basically already understand, which is that they are inherently broken and there's nothing short of eugenics that is going to stop them from existing?
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Oct 2, 2015 21:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, there is always your suggestion of vivisection. I don't believe there is generally much medical reason to do that while people are alive. Tezzor posted:What if after all that we confirm what we basically already understand, which is that they are inherently broken and there's nothing short of eugenics that is going to stop them from existing? Then we engage in eugenics like we do for other genetically transmissible conditions? I'm not sure "inherently broken" is much of a diagnosis though.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:46
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Robotnik Nudes posted:That's a fancy way of saying you have no clue. No, it's a fancy way of saying that I have familiarized myself with some of this stuff, you haven't, and you won't read anything that is not in the form of a post.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:48
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OwlFancier posted:I don't believe there is generally much medical reason to do that while people are alive. Well what about the people who don't get the tests or don't want to abort their futurepedo fetus for whatever reason? And even if we get 100% compliance tomorrow there will be already-existing pedos running around for decades.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:51
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Tezzor posted:Well what about the people who don't get the tests or don't want to abort their futurepedo fetus for whatever reason? And even if we get 100% compliance tomorrow there will be already-existing pedos running around for decades. If we got 100% compliance then the problem would resolve itself within a century. As to whether it should be mandatory, depends, I suppose, on whether you view childbirth as an inalienable human right. Humans already have the right to reproduce without regard to the wellbeing of their child or others, so apparently the answer is "oh well" but if you would like to advance a different view you are of course free to do so. It is not a perfect solution as it doesn't immediately stop the problem this second but if you have an option which does that please share.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:53
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Eugenics is totally a good idea. That hasn't ever caused any problems in society worse than pedophilia.
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Oct 2, 2015 21:58
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