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Aren't the rules right now technically that airstrikes can only be called in by US forces for the express purpose of defending said forces?
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Oct 5, 2015 17:18
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Mackers posted:You poor, naive fools. It is a feature not a bug.
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Oct 5, 2015 17:37
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Mozi posted:Aren't the rules right now technically that airstrikes can only be called in by US forces for the express purpose of defending said forces? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/10/world/middleeast/syria-turkey-islamic-state-kurdish-militia-ypg.html So there's US involvement, but it's the forces on the ground who are giving the coordinates. If it works the same way in Afghanistan, then the guys on the ground gave the coordinates and the US fired on those coordinates, which was a hospital.
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Oct 5, 2015 17:43
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I believe in Afghanistan the rules are more stringent than elsewhere, but my point was they're just a fiction right now.
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Oct 5, 2015 17:46
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I don't know much about avionics, but as a tactical bomber, wouldn't the SU-24 have a pretty good CCIP system? They were supposed to dive-toss bombs onto NATO airfields, hit bridges and tunnels and fly risky interdiction missions when the Ruskies came through the Fulda Gap. An aircraft designed to fly those high risk attack profiles would probably have the means to make sure those bombs were on target. By contrast flying low and slow in clear skies is probably pretty easy for anything more advanced than a Norden bombsight. How much the Russians care about hitting their intended target in this case is up for debate though.
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Oct 5, 2015 17:49
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CeeJee posted:Erdogan is now in the strange position of being mad at both Russia and the US for helping out his enemies with direct military action. Has anyone hosed up international relations this badly in recent history ?
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Oct 5, 2015 17:49
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 Can't wait to see the results of the classified internal investigation.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:00
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Mackers posted:
Well, poo poo.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:12
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Mackers posted:Can't wait to see the results of the classified internal investigation. It's almost certainly a coordinate targeting mistake. Doesn't make it a war crime. Hopefully MSF will start putting red crosses/crescents on the roofs of their medical buildings. Welcome to the world, war is hell, etc.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:29
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A 'senior Kremlin official' has said that volunteer forces from east Ukraine will be fighting in Syria, according to the NYT.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:29
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Miltank posted:A 'senior Kremlin official' has said that volunteer forces from east Ukraine will be fighting in Syria, according to the NYT. Here comes the Cossacks 
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Oct 5, 2015 18:32
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Miltank posted:A 'senior Kremlin official' has said that volunteer forces from east Ukraine will be fighting in Syria, according to the NYT. The guardian reported that the Chechen leader/puppet guy has asked to be allowed to go in too.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:32
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Kaal posted:It's almost certainly a coordinate targeting mistake. Doesn't make it a war crime. Hopefully MSF will start putting red crosses/crescents on the roofs of their medical buildings. Welcome to the world, war is hell, etc. There are pictures of gunmen inside the hospital, and apparently ap pics of guns in the windows, haven't seen them though.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:35
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Kaal posted:It's almost certainly a coordinate targeting mistake. Doesn't make it a war crime. Hopefully MSF will start putting red crosses/crescents on the roofs of their medical buildings. Welcome to the world, war is hell, etc. I can't imagine you'd apply this presumption of innocence if it was Russia that seemed to deliberately bomb a hospital.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:36
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Tezzor posted:I can't imagine you'd apply this presumption of innocence if it was Russia that seemed to deliberately bomb a hospital. I don't think that there is any doubt that the action is deliberate. I mean people don't "miss" over and over for 30 minutes. At which point it just comes down to whether or not you believe that the US is an evil nefarious organization that has a secret desire to kill MSF health workers, and then lie about it while also apologizing that it happened and promising a full investigation. Mistakes happen in war, particularly in urban combat when civilians like the MSF refuse to withdraw. Maybe the Taliban went back inside the hospital, maybe they didn't, but certainly they were very nearby and the area was an active battlefield. War is dangerous. People get hurt. Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 18:45
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Kaal posted:I don't think that there is any doubt that the action is deliberate. I mean people don't "miss" over and over for 30 minutes. At which point it just comes down to whether or not you believe that the US is an evil nefarious organization that has a secret desire to kill MSF health workers, and then lie about it while also apologizing that it happened and promising a full investigation. Another more plausible narrative is the same one we're given about Russian airstrikes in Syria: that local allied forces are deliberately giving false targeting information to kill their enemies. On another topic, forgive me if I laugh at the US's "apologies" and "investigations"
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Oct 5, 2015 18:51
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Kaal posted:I don't think that there is any doubt that the action is deliberate. I mean people don't "miss" over and over for 30 minutes. At which point it just comes down to whether or not you believe that the US is an evil nefarious organization that has a secret desire to kill MSF health workers. The implication is that they do not give a poo poo either way about bombing hospitals, not that they are comic-book villians actively seeking to. Are we really expected to believe that they didn't know they were targetting the Doctors Without Borders hospital? Mackers fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 18:54
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Tezzor posted:Another more plausible narrative is the same one we're given about Russian airstrikes in Syria: that local allied forces are deliberately giving false targeting information to kill their enemies. On another topic, forgive me if I laugh at the US's "apologies" and "investigations" The MSF isn't the enemy of the Afghan military, so that's completely implausible and requires that we treat people with cartoonish contempt.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:58
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Mackers posted:The implication is that they do not give a poo poo either way about bombing hospitals, not that they are comic-book villians actively seeking to. Over time I guess you realize geopolitical powers are self-interested entities that more or less try to get away with whatever they can, just some are richer than others and/or better at it. That said, the disconnect is getting trying to build a bigger narrative about how "this time it is different." Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 18:59
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Kaal posted:I don't think that there is any doubt that the action is deliberate. I mean people don't "miss" over and over for 30 minutes. At which point it just comes down to whether or not you believe that the US is an evil nefarious organization that has a secret desire to kill MSF health workers, and then lie about it while also apologizing that it happened and promising a full investigation. Mistakes happen in war, particularly in urban combat when civilians like the MSF refuse to withdraw. Maybe the Taliban went back inside the hospital, maybe they didn't, but certainly they were very nearby and the area was an active battlefield. War is dangerous. People get hurt. from what i keep reading, it seems the afgans said the hospital was a target, so we bombed the gently caress out of it unthinkingly.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:59
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Kaal posted:The MSF isn't the enemy of the Afghan military, so that's completely implausible. The Taliban and "The Taliban" are the enemies of the Afghan military, and receive treatment at this hospital, which they are upset by.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:59
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sparatuvs posted:There are pictures of gunmen inside the hospital, and apparently ap pics of guns in the windows, haven't seen them though. The current story is that Afghan forces came under fire from inside the hospital and called in the strikes to neutralize them. Kunduz: US says Afghans requested air strike that hit MSF clinic quote:"We have now learned that on 3 October, Afghan forces advised that they were taking fire from enemy positions and asked for air support from US air forces," said Gen Campbell, the top commander of the US-led Nato coalition in Afghanistan. MSF is understandably pissed, but if there actually was fire coming from the hospital, it was a legitimate target. That seems to be the key that the whole thing turns on.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:03
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Tezzor posted:The Taliban and "The Taliban" are the enemies of the Afghan military, and receive treatment at this hospital, which they are upset by. If the MSF is knowingly accepting Taliban patients then they're really stupid since that makes them aiding and abetting a terrorist organization, which would be illegal. As far as I know, they're not doing that. Indeed if anything they're doing the opposite, which is why the Taliban has been occupying MSF clinics and hunting for nonaligned rebels and government soldiers.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:04
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Brown Moses posted:I'm starting a crowdsourced project to geolocate these videos and find related materials (videos of the attacks from the ground, details on who controlled what, etc), then map them. Cool. Do you already have something for airstrikes by the US and friends?
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Oct 5, 2015 19:04
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Kaal posted:If the MSF is knowingly accepting Taliban patients then they're really stupid since that makes them aiding and abetting a terrorist organization, which would be illegal. As far as I know, they're not doing that. Indeed if anything they're doing the opposite, which is why the Taliban has been occupying MSF clinics and hunting for nonaligned rebels and government soldiers. lol
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Oct 5, 2015 19:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:from what i keep reading, it seems the afgans said the hospital was a target, so we bombed the gently caress out of it unthinkingly. It almost certainly is more complex than that, since if they just sent in coordinates then they'd have been flagged in the computer. More likely they sent over the grid coordinates, everyone knew that the hospital was nearby and to avoid it, and then when the ground controllers described the white single story compound that the Taliban were fighting from, they indicated the wrong one.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:08
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Kaal posted:It almost certainly is more complex than that, since if they just sent in coordinates then they'd have been flagged in the computer. More likely they sent over the grid coordinates, everyone knew that the hospital was nearby and to avoid it, and then when the ground controllers described the white single story compound that the Taliban were fighting from, they indicated the wrong one. Great post/avatar combo, right here. Deteriorata posted:MSF is understandably pissed, but if there actually was fire coming from the hospital, it was a legitimate target. That seems to be the key that the whole thing turns on. Hospitals can be targeted in such cases, but they must limit collateral damage. A Spectre is not a good way to do that.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:09
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Kaal posted:I don't think that there is any doubt that the action is deliberate. I mean people don't "miss" over and over for 30 minutes. At which point it just comes down to whether or not you believe that the US is an evil nefarious organization that has a secret desire to kill MSF health workers, and then lie about it while also apologizing that it happened and promising a full investigation. Mistakes happen in war, particularly in urban combat when civilians like the MSF refuse to withdraw. Maybe the Taliban went back inside the hospital, maybe they didn't, but certainly they were very nearby and the area was an active battlefield. War is dangerous. People get hurt. Yeah, gently caress off. Soldiers don't get to deliberately airstrike the only hospital in a warzone from afar and say "Oh this job is so hard, everything we've done is OK for that reason and you can't criticise us because muh fog of war  " MSF gave the US military the coordinates of their hospitals so that they wouldn't be hit, they contacted the US army during the air strikes so they wouldn't be bombed any further. And there was no fighting in the area before the first US strike on the hospital, so it wasn't an 'active battlefield' either. Have you actually read anything about what happened or does the mere fact they're US soldiers mean you assume they did good and you don't need to actually know what you're talking about?Also US forces DID lie about what happened because they originally claimed they were under direct fire from the hospital when they made the first strike, a claim they withdrew after MSF called them out. So again, you're wrong on that as well. In summary, take your lovely "Everything that happens in a battlefield is morally OK" gimmick and shove it up your rear end.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:12
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Bad things can happen without them being illegal. Welcome to the world, war is hell, etc.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smG_2cww8hU It's funny, they've painted over the markings and insignia. They're Totally-Not-Russian Air Force bombers. The TNRAF only keeps a number as the sole marking on their aircraft, no roundel or whatever. Maybe they vacationed in Ukraine and haven't been painted back? I mean, painting over the markings totally work to prevent identification as a Russian asset even when it's done on a model that was never exported, right? Kaal posted:If the MSF is knowingly accepting Taliban patients then they're really stupid since that makes them aiding and abetting a terrorist organization, which would be illegal. As far as I know, they're not doing that. Indeed if anything they're doing the opposite, which is why the Taliban has been occupying MSF clinics and hunting for nonaligned rebels and government soldiers. The legal stuff has been posted earlier and specifically mentioned that sick or wounded enemies being treated in a hospital is never a justification for attacking the hospital. Refusing to treat a sick or wounded person because you've been told this patient belongs to a criminal group is also firmly against the Hippocratic oath.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:18
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Kaal posted:Bad things can happen without them being illegal. Welcome to the world, war is hell, etc. Rules of Engagement say that bombarding a hospital with a Gunship is a major no-no, regardless of occupying forces.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:18
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Cat Mattress posted:The legal stuff has been posted earlier and specifically mentioned that sick or wounded enemies being treated in a hospital is never a justification for attacking the hospital. If someone finds proof that the MSF has been secretly treating Taliban soldiers, then they'll get dragged into court on criminal charges and probably kicked out of Afghanistan at the very least.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:20
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CommieGIR posted:Rules of Engagement say that bombarding a hospital with a Gunship is a major no-no, regardless of occupying forces. I read earlier the rule is that if the hospital is indeed occupied, the attacker needs to contact the owners of the hospital to verify/warn before bombing. I think thats why MSF said this was a warcrime, because the US admitted (I guess?) to the strike but didn't make this warning.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:24
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Count Roland posted:I read earlier the rule is that if the hospital is indeed occupied, the attacker needs to contact the owners of the hospital to verify/warn before bombing. I think thats why MSF said this was a warcrime, because the US admitted (I guess?) to the strike but didn't make this warning. Generally with things like hospitals, an attempt needs to be made by ground forces to re-take said building or verify that it is cleared before calling in strikes. Either way, letting a Spectre go hog wild on a Hospital was a very bad idea.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:26
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Kaal posted:If someone finds proof that the MSF has been secretly treating Taliban soldiers, then they'll get dragged into court on criminal charges and probably kicked out of Afghanistan at the very least. MSF treats wounded from all sides of the conflict, that's how they're able to operate at all. This is not a new thing.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:28
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Mozi posted:MSF treats wounded from all sides of the conflict, that's how they're able to operate at all. This is not a new thing. I was unsure of that, I thought the same thing, they are generally agnostic to who they treat.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:30
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Mozi posted:MSF treats wounded from all sides of the conflict, that's how they're able to operate at all. This is not a new thing. Hahaha, maybe in your world. In the real world, if they started treating "all sides of the conflict" and then just releasing them, they're committing multiple serious crimes which interfere with their central mission, which is helping Afghan civilians.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:30
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Kaal posted:Bad things can happen without them being illegal. Welcome to the world, war is hell, etc. Your views on war are a pastiche of cliches from bad action films, please go to the appropriate forum for this level of discourse (GBS).
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Oct 5, 2015 19:31
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but don't Russias airstrikes mean that they've categorically refected a diplomatic solution to the Syrian civil war? I mean, isn't the only real alternative for the West to militarily support the legitimate government of Syria?
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Oct 5, 2015 19:31
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Kaal posted:Hahaha, maybe in your world. In the real world, if they started treating "all sides of the conflict" and then just releasing them, they're committing multiple serious crimes which interfere with their central mission, which is helping Afghan civilians. No, you lunatic, by doing that it allows them to operate regardless of who controls the area at the moment and helps further their mission. That also, in no way, justifies an airstrike against a hospital. Seriously, stop repeat posting the "LOL IN THE REAL WORLD WAR SUCKS, LOSERS" diatribe.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:33
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