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Uthor posted:Consumer Reports ran some diesel's in "cheat mode". Got about 1/2 second slower to 60 mph and a 10% fuel economy drop. .....that's not actually that awful, why were they cheating?
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Oct 9, 2015 20:39
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There could be problems running like this in the long run that they were trying to avoid.
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Oct 9, 2015 20:41
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Uthor posted:There could be problems running like this in the long run that they were trying to avoid. I don't know, but outside of clogging the EGR, it shouldn't be detrimental to the engine provided they extend the EGR cycle or raise the operating temperature.
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Oct 9, 2015 20:51
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CommieGIR posted:I don't know, but outside of clogging the EGR, it shouldn't be detrimental to the engine provided they extend the EGR cycle or raise the operating temperature. DPF perhaps? not sure if it would normally operate during an EPA test cycle
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Oct 9, 2015 20:56
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Because if you look at the pressures OEMs are facing: Lower fuel consumption Longer durability Better quality Higher power output Lower emissions and all with lower prices Where are you going to cut the corners? If you're responsible for selling all these cars and your team comes to you and says, "We can get an extra 10% (this is huge, by the way) fuel consumption decrease by carefully calibrating our cars to pass emissions cycles - making our cars legal - but being more aggressive when we're not in those driving conditions," you really expect people to say "No"?
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Oct 9, 2015 20:59
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BraveUlysses posted:DPF perhaps? not sure if it would normally operate during an EPA test cycle The DPF should cycle normally during a testing cycle, as its triggered by ash load sensors and and a timer, so it can happen during normal idle, but VW was limiting it when the EPA Cheat was disabled to prevent it from robbing power. totalnewbie posted:Because if you look at the pressures OEMs are facing: 50 MPG versus 53 MPG, its not worth it. Its still 50 MPG in the age where Americans are still buying cars that get low 20s. And only 1/2 a second to 0-60 time? So the gently caress what. Durability wise, I sincerely doubt this is going to result in a major hit to engine durability.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:02
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CommieGIR posted:The DPF should cycle normally during a testing cycle, as its triggered by ash load sensors and and a timer, so it can happen during normal idle, but VW was limiting it when the EPA Cheat was disabled to prevent it from robbing power. The TDIs in question were only rated for 40 mpg. TDIs haven't gotten mileage in the 50s since before they put the DPF on them.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:05
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veedubfreak posted:The TDIs in question were only rated for 40 mpg. TDIs haven't gotten mileage in the 50s since before they put the DPF on them. quote:But the biggest changes occurred in fuel economy. Especially on the highway where the 2015 Jetta’s MPGs dropped from 53 to 50 and the 2011 Sportwagen’s plummeted from 50 to 46 MPG. Yeah, EPA rated them at 46 Highway, so I don't know where Jalopnik got that. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Oct 9, 2015 |
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Oct 9, 2015 21:06
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veedubfreak posted:The TDIs in question were only rated for 40 mpg. TDIs haven't gotten mileage in the 50s since before they put the DPF on them. i dunno mine break 50 on the freeway and its a 15.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:09
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Fuel mileage isn't emissions.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:09
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Lightbulb Out posted:Fuel mileage isn't emissions.  Read the article, this was when they enabled the cheat and drove both vehicles with the EPA cheat on to measure impact of an EPA approved emissions standard on the vehicle.In theory, with the cheat on while driving, the vehicles should be meeting emissions.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:10
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CommieGIR posted:50 MPG versus 53 MPG, its not worth it. Its still 50 MPG in the age where Americans are still buying cars that get low 20s. And only 1/2 a second to 0-60 time? So the gently caress what. Okay, but the people buying cars in the low 20s are not the same people buying TDIs. Generally, people pay a premium for a diesel engine because they're traveling salesmen, for example, and then every MPG matters. And I'll agree that most people wouldn't know a 15 HP drop if it hit them in the face but they're numbers that people see and that get "tested" by car magazines. When it comes to emissions, though, if it's meeting the requirements then... so what? No one was - I'm sure they might now, if it comes out that someone is meeting the requirements at all times - giving anyone credit for keeping low emissions during regular driving so, how would you justify to your management your decision to make your car "worse" for no benefit?
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Oct 9, 2015 21:25
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The problem is definitely bigger than a 10% drop in performance and a 10% drop in fuel efficiency or they would have fixed it by now and certainly would have for that December recall and the 2015 models when they were already under investigation.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:33
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Yeah, I read earlier that it is going to take a H/W change for everything before 15MY (in the US). Bigger LNT? SCR? Either way, that'll hurt a LOT. Good thing no one in USA buys diesels. Hope they can get away with a S/W change in Europe, though, or I don't even want to think about the numbers.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:40
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The benefit would be being able to sell your vehicles and meet emissions.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:52
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Well, VW's case aside, it seems that other makers' are able to sell cars and meet emissions, as the laws/regulations defines them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to suggest that auto makers are right to do what they're doing. My point, though, is that the result is the natural result of the circumstances they're in and that I don't find the outcome surprising.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:59
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totalnewbie posted:Well, VW's case aside, it seems that other makers' are able to sell cars and meet emissions, as the laws/regulations defines them. Not according to the article on the previous page which claims that 95% of non-VW diesels in the EU failed as well.
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Oct 9, 2015 22:11
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This is the article cited: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=twt_guquote:All the diesel cars passed the EU’s official lab-based regulatory test (called NEDC), but the test has failed to cut air pollution as governments intended because carmakers designed vehicles that perform better in the lab than on the road. There is no evidence of illegal activity, such as the “defeat devices” used by Volkswagen. So there's no problem as far as the regulatory agencies are concerned per se, though obviously this is clearly not following the spirit of the regulations.
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Oct 9, 2015 22:18
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:i dunno mine break 50 on the freeway and its a 15. The 14s and 15s have the urea tank so they don't have to waste tons of fuel clearing the dpf. The mk6 was only rated at 40 hwy. The MK7 is rated at like 46.
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Oct 9, 2015 22:19
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A 10% drop in fuel economy would take the diesels numbers to almost the same as the petrol in most markets.
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Oct 9, 2015 22:37
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:i dunno mine break 50 on the freeway and its a 15. Actual fuel mileage is not comparable to EPA rated fuel mileage.
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Oct 9, 2015 22:43
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veedubfreak posted:The 14s and 15s have the urea tank so they don't have to waste tons of fuel clearing the dpf. The mk6 was only rated at 40 hwy. The MK7 is rated at like 46. Oh, I didn't know that what the urea was for. I just assumed the goat piss did something magical. meatpimp posted:Actual fuel mileage is not comparable to EPA rated fuel mileage. I know that, that why it is almost impossible to win a case against a car manufacturer for loss of mileage, the manufacturer doesn't say the car can get X mileage the EPA does.
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Oct 9, 2015 23:04
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There's also no guarantee that 'cheat mode' actually makes them emissions compliant across the board, we only know it makes them emissions compliant for the testing situations. So, turning on cheat mode make make the car have NOx within range required by the EPA when the real world driving matches the EPA testing cycle, it may fall out of range when the car is driven differently. Basically, on top of the cheat only turning on when EPA tests were detected, it may also only bring the car in line emissions-wise in those specific testing conditions. So, fully fixing it, so the car hits the right range of emissions across all duty cycles, may be much more elaborate and detrimental to the fuel economy/speed.
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Oct 9, 2015 23:43
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bull3964 posted:
So long as the car can pass the test cycle without the defeat in place it shouldn't matter about real world - it'd still meet the standard it was sold under and would likely put it in the same position as other manufacturers. Of course the test cycle could be changed, but that would mean a new standard and affect everyone
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Oct 10, 2015 00:25
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I dunno, I got a personal letter from Micheal Horn saying that they'd fix it as soon as possible, so everything will be right again one day.
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Oct 10, 2015 00:36
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:Oh, I didn't know that what the urea was for. I just assumed the goat piss did something magical. Urea is used in SCR systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction Compare to the LNT systems that don't have urea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx_adsorber Not sure how it influences the DPF/DPF regen cycle though.
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Oct 10, 2015 00:41
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec According to the Wikipedia page, Daimler AG developed a complex SCR and DPF system that combined a few different techniques and called it BlueTec. This was licensed to Mercedes, Audi, and VW. VW got upset because they felt having BlueTec on the back of the Jetta harmed the TDI brand image, and thus after 2007 VW decided to develop their own (failed) emissions system, thus starting the cheat. If all that is true, VW is going to get hosed in court.
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Oct 10, 2015 01:53
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None of these things have made my new .:R any less fun  Bummer though, on the way home from work today, the R32 that I usually see on the trip home was on the shoulder. Looks like some shitheel sideswiped him. They didn't look too aggro though, so might have actually just been an oops. Definite low speed hit.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:18
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EngineerSean posted:I dunno, I got a personal letter from Micheal Horn saying that they'd fix it as soon as possible, so everything will be right again one day. Did he actually sign yours? On my letter, his signature was in blue ink. That's how I know it was real!
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Oct 10, 2015 04:14
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Kramdar posted:Did he actually sign yours? On my letter, his signature was in blue ink. That's how I know it was real! Yeah it made me laugh.
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Oct 10, 2015 14:00
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Do states even test for NOx? Someone was telling me the colorado emissions test simply looks at how many particles are coming out of the vehicle by looking at how much light is blocked.
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Oct 10, 2015 15:19
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Withnail posted:Do states even test for NOx? Someone was telling me the colorado emissions test simply looks at how many particles are coming out of the vehicle by looking at how much light is blocked. I am pretty sure it varies by municipality in Colorado. In Jefferson county and Denver county you get a full emissions report so I don't think this is accurate in those places.
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Oct 10, 2015 15:26
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Well, in interest of not flagging a TD1 code on my 2000mi GTI I've ordered a JB1 and a eBay downpipe. Should be good for 300whp / 350ftlb and $500 total. Later on will be the Golf-R (IS38) turbo swap when they have drop-in tunes for them. Supposed to be >400hp.
BlackMK4 fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Oct 10, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 17:48
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BlackMK4 posted:Well, in interest of not flagging a TD1 code on my 2000mi GTI I've ordered a JB1 and a eBay downpipe. Should be good for 300whp / 350ftlb and $500 total. Later on will be the Golf-R (IS38) turbo swap when they have drop-in tunes for them. Supposed to be >400hp. My friend , have you heard the good word of Borg Warner? http://www.full-race.com/ may borg warners light shine over you. edit: they dont make kits for audi/vw, this is awkward.
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Oct 10, 2015 17:57
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:My friend , have you heard the good word of Borg Warner? http://www.full-race.com/ may borg warners light shine over you. Stock GTI/Golf-R turbos are Borg Warners. Pretty much the newest tech, too.I work a mile or two from Full Race. e: gently caress, they are IHIs BlackMK4 fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 10, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 18:22
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BlackMK4 posted:Stock GTI/Golf-R turbos are Borg Warners. Is there an automotive company that hasn't at one point put an IHI turbo in their cars?
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Oct 10, 2015 18:48
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spog posted:You could get a tuning box: I've poked around on some the sites that make tuning boxes, but I haven't found anything specific for the 2015 sportwagen tdi with the ea288.
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Oct 10, 2015 21:46
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Withnail posted:I've poked around on some the sites that make tuning boxes, but I haven't found anything specific for the 2015 sportwagen tdi with the ea288. Have you tried emailing them and asking them if they have one?
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Oct 10, 2015 22:30
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Yeah, shooting off some emails Edit: looks like this is the one people are talking about for the mk7: http://dieseltuning.ca/product/active-cr-12/ Withnail fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Oct 11, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 22:43
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BlackMK4 posted:Stock GTI/Golf-R turbos are Borg Warners. ya they are ihi's, and ihi is utter trash ( from my subaru experience)
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Oct 11, 2015 02:55
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