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Chaotic Flame posted:It would be a huge red flag if they rescinded the offer just because you tried to negotiate. I'd consider that a bullet dodged.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:08
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Dik Hz posted:Only lovely clueless inept managers would rescind an offer because you tried to negotiate. They are terrible bosses and you would not want to work for someone like that. Don't ask me how I know that. Not an empty quote.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:09
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I have an initial offer from a startup in San Diego for $5k below my current salary, but $15k above the market average. From 2012 to 2013 I more than doubled my salary, but since moving from Austin to Southern California, I've actually gone down $5k (after switching jobs). In two years, despite being in high demand (front-end developer), I've yet to receive or negotiate an offer above my current salary. Have I just hit the ceiling for the market? Do I need to be pickier and wait for higher offers? Or am I limited by cold applying to jobs or working with no-name recruiters? For the current offer, I have no leverage to negotiate based on market rates. But, I know the top of their range is $35k higher and ultimately I feel comfortable saying no, so I don't mind negotiating up. If I'm just naming a number for a counter-offer, without evidence, what's a safe number? I'm thinking of countering with +15%, $10k relocation, and 1% equity with the hope of landing at least +10% salary, $7k relocation, and any equity.
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Sep 29, 2015 02:39
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I came to an agreement yesterday with my new future employer on an offer. To recap, they had initially come in at 70% above my current salary (total compensation) with a 14% signing bonus on top of that. I asked for the relocation rental assistance figure in writing and, "oops, you actually won't be eligible for the rental supplement" so they bumped the offer to 75% above my current total compensation. I counter offered asking for 15% higher. They responded in a few hours saying that they couldn't go any higher on the base pay but they could give me a $10k signing bonus on top of the bonus already mentioned. I would have been happy with the original offer, and was certainly happy with the revised offer. I remember someone ITT saying to know when you've won and I felt like I maybe could have gone back to ask for more but honestly felt like I'd already won by getting $10k more they would have given me just by having the balls to ask for more. So thanks thread, I didn't get a higher base salary as part of the negotiation but I did get $10k more up front and I consider that a win 
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Sep 29, 2015 09:32
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sim posted:I have an initial offer from a startup in San Diego for $5k below my current salary, but $15k above the market average. From 2012 to 2013 I more than doubled my salary, but since moving from Austin to Southern California, I've actually gone down $5k (after switching jobs). In two years, despite being in high demand (front-end developer), I've yet to receive or negotiate an offer above my current salary. Have I just hit the ceiling for the market? Do I need to be pickier and wait for higher offers? Or am I limited by cold applying to jobs or working with no-name recruiters? You have all the justification you need: "Pay me $X+15%, or I won't work for you." End of story, you have a job you like well enough to stay in and you don't need to accept their offer. Knowing where you are relative to the market is good and it makes your ask realistic. You should understand that you are asking above market, and if challenged be ready to explain to them why you are worth more than other developers that they can hire. But you've got the best negotiating position right now so really lean on it!
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Sep 29, 2015 13:59
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Virigoth posted:At my current job I was recruited by the manager for the DevOps team from my position as a QA person for the same team. Looking at standard salaries for my area, our remote office area, and Glassdoor salaries for the company I expected to get an offer in the range of around 85-90k a year. When I got my offer letter today it was for 70k which is significantly less than I anticipated. This was a job req that was created especially for me and this transfer. I'd love some critique on my reply to the offer letter below: Trip Report: Ending up accepting an offer with a 23% raise and quarterly RSUs that vest in a year. Thanks for the help on request for counter offer letter.
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Sep 30, 2015 14:54
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Anyone here have any insight on how recruiting firms make money? How about if a firm is looking to fill a position at a client, and a second firm finds them a candidate? If I'm an independant contractor, how would a hourly rate be set?
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Oct 2, 2015 00:05
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rouliroul posted:Anyone here have any insight on how recruiting firms make money? How about if a firm is looking to fill a position at a client, and a second firm finds them a candidate? If I'm an independant contractor, how would a hourly rate be set? They get a finder's fee. I think there are some variations but generally it's a percentage based on whatever your salary ends up being. They'll try to tell you that means your interests are aligned because they get a higher fee if you get more money but you shouldn't believe that (the percentage isn't enough to matter and they'd rather close).
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Oct 3, 2015 02:34
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Yep. If you've read the Freakanomics chapter on real estate agents its the same concept. That 10k additional salary is huge to you but at a few percentage points commission is really not worth the recruiter's time over the few extra hundred dollars
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Oct 3, 2015 13:21
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oxsnard posted:Yep. If you've read the Freakanomics chapter on real estate agents its the same concept. Well there's that and also the "penny in the hand is worth two in the bush" aspect of it if they don't have an exclusive deal.
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Oct 3, 2015 14:55
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Yeah, my dad is a starving real-estate agent and he's out to sell houses, whether they cost $189,000 or $229,000. It definitely affects the advice he gives to clients.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:59
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The good part about having close family friends on my wife's side who are realtors is that they actually look out for us and we don't have to deal with that poo poo. In this metro anyway, I'm sure I'll get rawdogged again after the next relocation.
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Oct 4, 2015 03:00
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:They get a finder's fee. I think there are some variations but generally it's a percentage based on whatever your salary ends up being. They'll try to tell you that means your interests are aligned because they get a higher fee if you get more money but you shouldn't believe that (the percentage isn't enough to matter and they'd rather close). Just this. Generally a percentage of first year salary, repayable if the candidate leaves within 6 months. For the roles I have out at recruiters we usually pay 20% of the first year. Where it gets interesting is on the recruiter side. Often the recruitment firm will take a fixed dollar/pound amount (say 5k), and anything else will be split around by a formula. Say 30% to recruiter, 20% to their manager and 50% to the firm. So placing a candidate at 100k. 20% fee, so 20k to play with. 5 straight to the firm. Of the 15k left, 7.5k to the firm. 4.5k to the recruiter. 3k to the manager. candidate at 120k. 20% fee, so 24k to play with. 5 straight to the firm. Of the 19k left, 9.5k to the firm. 5.7k to the recruiter. 3.8k to the manager. And that is for a huge 20% difference for the candidate - you can see that if a role is with several recruiters (I use 3 at a time for most of my roles) it makes much more sense for the recruiter to close you at a lower amount than chase the marginal gain at the risk of losing the 4.5k - and the 3k for their manager!
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Oct 4, 2015 09:37
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Those managers get a nice kickback. Holy poo poo.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:14
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:They get a finder's fee. I think there are some variations but generally it's a percentage based on whatever your salary ends up being. They'll try to tell you that means your interests are aligned because they get a higher fee if you get more money but you shouldn't believe that (the percentage isn't enough to matter and they'd rather close). Wouldn't that work in reverse though? Say the client wants me and the recruiter negotiates the salary with me. Shouldn't he just offer me the top of client's range to increase the chance I'll just say yes without spending hours negotiating?
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Oct 6, 2015 04:41
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rouliroul posted:Wouldn't that work in reverse though? Say the client wants me and the recruiter negotiates the salary with me. Shouldn't he just offer me the top of client's range to increase the chance I'll just say yes without spending hours negotiating? Yes and no - the recruiter's most difficult task is getting the client to bite on anyone at all - so they are going to pick the candidate who is most likely to get hired. In general, this should hypothetically be the most qualified person who can be hired ~within~ the client's budget range, but it often means they will put through a mediocre but hireable person instead of an expensive but excellent person, for example, because they'll have a higher hit rate with the mediocre.
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Oct 6, 2015 05:01
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Yes and no - the recruiter's most difficult task is getting the client to bite on anyone at all - so they are going to pick the candidate who is most likely to get hired. In general, this should hypothetically be the most qualified person who can be hired ~within~ the client's budget range, but it often means they will put through a mediocre but hireable person instead of an expensive but excellent person, for example, because they'll have a higher hit rate with the mediocre. Sounds like my history of mediocrity will help me in the business world. Who could have seen that coming?
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Oct 8, 2015 15:19
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I know this is the negotiate offers thread, but what about discussing raises? Not sure if there's a better thread for it already. I don't think I've ever had any job for more than a year and a half, at least not in my professional, post-college life. My first internship made me full time and I left quickly for a job that paid double (71K as a contacted employee; no benefits). I got laid off, along with many others, due to budget cuts after 1.5 years. Before the nail was in the coffin, my boss was getting me interviews with tons of different teams within the company to try and keep me around. When we knew that wasn't going to happen, he kept his ear open for external opportunities too. Ended up finding my current job earlier this year and I have a 6-month review coming up soon. When they asked salary requirements I have a range (60-65K) because I legitimately don't know what's competitive for the region I moved to. They offered 62 with excellent benefits and I accepted. So, if they don't bring up a raise during my review I thought I might ask, myself. But I have no idea how the hell to do this, and that's compounded by pretty bad self-worth issues and a strong feeling of incompetency despite all the effort my previous boss went through to keep me around. I feel I've done adequately at my job here, got one compliment from my boss early on and while emailing him about some significant code refactoring he said he appreciated the thought / effort but now was not a good time to implement it due to a pending annual production release. Fair enough. But yea, I dunno. What the hell do you say? How much do you ask for? I was thinking of asking for that other $3K from my initial range I gave them, but I don't know what's typical. I've never received a raise before. My mom told me, "Ask like you're asking for your best friend", which I thought was interesting but she's been a waitress her entire life. Not sure how transferable that is to the corporate IT culture.
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Oct 8, 2015 20:27
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asking for a raise at less than a year in is tough, but since it's a formal review, it could also be expected. I think you have to show your value, how you've stepped up and made a clear impact. And since you're newish, talk about how you're going to continue to make an impact. And then ask for a raise. 3k isn't unreasonable. And if they so no, push for concrete metrics for your review about what needs to happen for you to get that raise.
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Oct 9, 2015 05:30
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This article discusses some strategic thinking about compensation negotiations at some length. The article he links to at the beginning is also pretty enlightening if you've never thought about this stuff before. One of the most enlightening conversations I've ever had at work was begun by my boss scoffing at a few resumes on his desk and remarking, offhandedly that those people who the resumes put more forethought and planning into saving ten dollars on dinner than on building a career that could get them everything they want in life.
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Oct 9, 2015 07:35
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rouliroul posted:Wouldn't that work in reverse though? Say the client wants me and the recruiter negotiates the salary with me. Shouldn't he just offer me the top of client's range to increase the chance I'll just say yes without spending hours negotiating?
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Oct 10, 2015 01:42
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Geez, this is a depressing "negotiation success stories" comments thread; half these people have never negotiated anything at all and the others feel like they're getting away with something for like $1000 over the initial offer which seems like nothing: http://www.askamanager.org/2015/04/ask-the-readers-tell-us-about-your-successful-salary-negotiations.html
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Oct 10, 2015 05:52
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Geez, this is a depressing "negotiation success stories" comments thread; half these people have never negotiated anything at all and the others feel like they're getting away with something for like $1000 over the initial offer which seems like nothing: http://www.askamanager.org/2015/04/ask-the-readers-tell-us-about-your-successful-salary-negotiations.html I really love AAM but her readers are the most passive people I've ever seen.
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Oct 11, 2015 15:53
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I've been extended an offer for a position that receives an annual bonus, but I wouldn't be eligible to receive it until 2017 since I'd be starting near the end of this year. Am I off-base in thinking of asking for a signing bonus of some kind since that portion of the compensation package will not be available to me in 2016? Also, the base salary itself is 30% more than I currently make, but they came in slightly above my target range (I was forced to give something by the recruiter near the end of the process), which makes me think I may have lowballed myself a bit. The position is hard to locate hard data for because the title can be applied across many different departments which seem to have different compensation structures. I'm happy with the base salary offered, but should I ask for more in this case? I could probably justify it due to my healthcare premiums tripling and getting less coverage with the new company. Chaotic Flame fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 12, 2015 17:29
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If you've given them a target which they have surpassed you don't really get to go back and say "welllllllllllllllllllll now that I actually did my homework I want more money"
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Oct 12, 2015 18:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If you've given them a target which they have surpassed you don't really get to go back and say "welllllllllllllllllllll now that I actually did my homework I want more money" That's what I figured, though I tried to leave room when giving the target by saying something along the lines of "Without knowing the full terms of the compensation package and scope of the position, I can say I would probably be comfortable at $X. This may change as I get more information about the full benefits package, etc." Which they said they understood during the conversation. Still not a good idea to come back now that I've gotten the full terms of the benefit package? Though I'm still unsure about this part. Chaotic Flame posted:I've been extended an offer for a position that receives an annual bonus, but I wouldn't be eligible to receive it until 2017 since I'd be starting near the end of this year. Am I off-base in thinking of asking for a signing bonus of some kind since that portion of the compensation package will not be available to me in 2016? Haven't dealt with a bonus before and the jobs I had before didn't have any room for negotiation (state job) or I created the position and got everything I wanted (my current job).
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Oct 12, 2015 18:53
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Chaotic Flame posted:That's what I figured, though I tried to leave room when giving the target by saying something along the lines of "Without knowing the full terms of the compensation package and scope of the position, I can say I would probably be comfortable at $X. This may change as I get more information about the full benefits package, etc." Which they said they understood during the conversation. Still not a good idea to come back now that I've gotten the full terms of the benefit package? Can you just ask for what you want in terms of benefits? I'd approach it that way first, and then maybe if they say no to that ask for more salary specifically because of the difference in benefits. If the bonus is delayed for more than a year, I think it's perfectly acceptable to ask for a signing bonus to cover the lack of it, especially if the bonus was brought up in the salary negotiation as part of the compensation. Just for anyone else reading this, you should try to get all the information you can regarding compensation (salary, bonus, benefits, options, etc) before beginning the negotiation as each factor can have a large impact on total compensation. asur fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 12, 2015 20:14
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Is the bonus a significant amount of your total comp? My job is like... 30% of total comp is bonus, so that would be a non-starter (we prorate bonuses)
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Oct 12, 2015 21:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Is the bonus a significant amount of your total comp? My job is like... 30% of total comp is bonus, so that would be a non-starter (we prorate bonuses) It's 10% of base salary and could go higher based on performance.
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Oct 13, 2015 00:58
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Chaotic Flame posted:It's 10% of base salary and could go higher based on performance. lol it ain't gonna go higher than that. 10% is that number you can generally count on but will never get more than.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:31
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asur posted:Can you just ask for what you want in terms of benefits? I'd approach it that way first, and then maybe if they say no to that ask for more salary specifically because of the difference in benefits. I already asked about vacation which can't be changed and the other issue I had was that my health/dental/vision premiums are going to be much more expensive at the new company for less coverage, so I may want to consider an HSA. Is that grounds enough for a small percentage bump in salary? I'll ask for the signing bonus then since it was definitely presented as part of the total compensation package (the 30% raise I mentioned is just base salary though). oxsnard posted:lol it ain't gonna go higher than that. I hope this isn't true. Recruiter mentioned that 10% is base you can expect as long as you're doing your job and during a few interviews with Associates that are at the same level I'm coming in, they mentioned they'd gotten larger than standard bonuses at times. 
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Oct 13, 2015 04:20
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I would find out exactly how the firm determines bonuses. edit: the less specific this is, the less likely you are to see money
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Oct 13, 2015 12:51
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Yeah if they don't have clear metrics for determining bonuses you should really only be negotiating on base salary. My last three jobs have had the 10 percent-ish bonus and that's exactly what I've received as long as the company met their financial goals and you didn't gently caress up
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Oct 13, 2015 13:18
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I guess I'm not being clear. I was told that there is a 10% bonus. You get this if you "meet expectations" at your year-end review. If you do better than "meets expectations" your bonus is higher.
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Oct 13, 2015 13:44
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Chaotic Flame posted:I guess I'm not being clear. I was told that there is a 10% bonus. You get this if you "meet expectations" at your year-end review. If you do better than "meets expectations" your bonus is higher. so if i do better than meets expectations, what is the resulting bonus? 11%? 20%? how am i measured for this review, what are the metrics used to decide if I meet expectations or not? If they're not objective metrics I guaran-loving-tee you that very few people "Do better than meets expectations" on an annual basis.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:so if i do better than meets expectations, what is the resulting bonus? 11%? 20%? Ah, okay. Sorry, it sounded like you were asking if the bonus existed at all. We touched on performance appraisal in the interviews, but I don't know much other than they have a standard 1 - 5 not meeting --> exceeding setup nor what the increase would be at each level above 3. At this point though, I'm only considering the 10% in the negotiation because that's "supposed" to be a given and, like you said, I don't know what you have to do to get a 4 or 5 and what the corresponding increase would be.
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Oct 13, 2015 15:23
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Ask what % of employees receive a 10% bonus and what % receive greater than 10%.
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Oct 13, 2015 22:07
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Also ask how many receive each number in their first year, versus other years. I've been places where you essentially get Meets until you're reaching the next promotion checkpoint and you start getting Exceeds or Above - but not until then.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:37
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Ask what % of employees receive a 10% bonus and what % receive greater than 10%. Red Oktober posted:Also ask how many receive each number in their first year, versus other years. I've been places where you essentially get Meets until you're reaching the next promotion checkpoint and you start getting Exceeds or Above - but not until then. Will do. I have a call with them later today to discuss the offer. Thanks for all the info/advice everyone!
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Oct 14, 2015 15:52
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What are typical signing bonuses at engineering companies (google, apple, smaller companies/startups, etc?) What's the typical commitment required to keep the whole bonus (1yr? 2? 4?) I assume they vastly vary based on position and experience.
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Oct 15, 2015 22:48
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