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Kaal posted:Civ 5 is balanced well enough Haha, no.
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Oct 12, 2015 17:58
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| # ? May 28, 2024 13:29 |
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CBP on Prince difficulty was a bad idea when I can barely do emperor
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Oct 12, 2015 18:04
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Kaal posted:You can pretty much do whatever you please all the way up to Emperor, even Immortal. Going wide on Deity is quite doable so long as you aren't trying for a completely peacenik victory. And this is even more true if you start involving other players into the mix. You can do "whatever you please" assuming you have a very strong understanding of the underlying systems and you don't do whatever you please in every domain (e.g. trying to pursue a wide religion-based cultural victory in which you avoid using the Tradition and Rationalism policies). As the game gets harder, it becomes harder to use strategies that aren't the strongest strategy in the relevant domain, and there very clearly are strongest strategies in most domains. Tradition is the best starter policy. Ranged units are the best combat units. The National College is super-important and should be built as soon as possible. Et cetera. The more you ignore these "best" options the harder the game becomes; depending on your skill level you may not be able to handle Monarch without playing your best possible game, let alone Deity. In other words, the existence of Deity players who do not do the "best thing" does not disprove the existence of "best things" or their importance to surviving higher difficulties.
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Oct 12, 2015 18:43
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I understand that there are optimal strategies, but this thread overestimates how difficult this game is to play. The idea that a player has to do everything optimally or they will lose is simply jumping the shark.
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Oct 12, 2015 18:59
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Kaal posted:Civ 5 is balanced well enough - and varied enough - that you don't need any hard and fast rules. Anyone telling you to "never plant a city after turn 100" or "never have more than four cities" is just being pedantic. Generally the overall issue is that there just isn't any point to building a wide empire, not that it will actively harm you. Uhhhh. Again, the AI is bad, so yeah you can do pretty much w/e until Diety - which is why it's uninteresting. I'm not saying you can never plant a city after 100, I'm saying with very few exceptions it's a bad idea to do so and will make your position worse. On Diety you often don't have to play optimally, but you'll randomly lose to bad RNG if you don't. Against players who are playing in the relatively near optimal range, doing anything else will set you unrecoverably behind. This is why the NQ mod is so great - it allows you to play the most interesting game (against players who are a competent) while still having lots of choices and options. What's best becomes reactive and interactive, which is something the base game often lacks. In vanilla there are a lot of choices that are just plain traps. P.S. It's generally useless to say "you can get away with doing this b/c the AI isn't hard" when we are talking about what the right things to do are, and why. Being able to do something and still win does not mean that thing is automatically worth doing. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 12, 2015 19:03
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I struggle on immortal and advocate never going beyond 3 cities. The game is not balanced for wide play as the balancing mechanics are bad.
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Oct 12, 2015 19:56
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Kaal posted:I understand that there are optimal strategies, but this thread overestimates how difficult this game is to play. The idea that a player has to do everything optimally or they will lose is simply jumping the shark. Being easy is not the same as being balanced. The fact that weak options are winnable on most difficulties does not mean they're balanced with strong options. (Also please do not use the phrase "jumping the shark", it does not mean whatever you think it does.)
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Oct 12, 2015 20:11
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Nobody's saying "always do this" or "never do that". They're simply stating the facts of how the game works, which is what you use to form a strategy. And one of those facts is that every city you build beyond your capitol will cause a net loss in research rate. It's a pretty significant factor.
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Oct 12, 2015 20:30
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Personally, it's a good argument for not playing on the higher difficulties.
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Oct 12, 2015 22:58
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Lol you guys are pretty funny. "Sure the game is easy and it's not hard to win, but if you don't do exactly the most optimal path possible then you will randomly lose." Ok. Want to win against the AI? Build an army or buy diplomatic votes. Want to win against other players? Gang up against them. Boom, done. I can understand people struggle to have easy wins, and don't object to folks who are just discussing how to bend the game over their knee, but over the last couple pages there's been a tendency to argue that these optimal strategies are the only way to play - they aren't.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:12
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If you can win comfortably on Prince doing whatever you want, you can win on Immortal playing the optimal strategy only. So if the game is feeling like a slog where you have to follow a script, turn down the difficulty two notches and try something new.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:16
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Kaal posted:Lol you guys are pretty funny. "Sure the game is easy and it's not hard to win, but if you don't do exactly the most optimal path possible then you will randomly lose." What the gently caress, man? No one has said anything remotely like this, so quit beating up your lovely strawman.
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Oct 13, 2015 00:22
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Now that I'm out of work and free to do a bit of research, here are some neat reads on the subject from Civ Fanatics, aka People Who Are Nerdier With The Math Than Me. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=526460 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=540467 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505381 Some interesting upshots: - It's not a compounding effect. The percentage is on the base cost of the tech, not on whatever it was at N-1 cities. - It's way lower than 10%. Standard maps have it at 5%, large at 4%, huge at 3%. (Not sure if it's higher than 5% on smaller maps.) - You still come out ahead once the city gets going. "Once the city gets going" depends on how far you are in the game, so as you progress further there may still be short-term drawbacks to it. - Because of this, you'll have a net slowdown at first, then you break even, then your gains for a while will go to counteract the losses from that slowdown, and after that it's pure profit. Again, how long "at first" and "a while" are depend on where you are in the game and how willing you are to throw resources (like gold and trade routes and workers) at this new city. - While you come out ahead, this is with diminishing returns. Going from 13 to 14 cities is less beneficial to your net speed of teching than going from 3 to 4 cities. However this is "less beneficial", not "harmful". And of course, as we've been discussing... - The real limiting factor in going wide is happiness.
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Oct 13, 2015 04:42
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Fister Roboto posted:Also if you've built too many cities you'll fall behind, because each city you build raises tech costs by more than the science it can produce. With regard to great scientists: is it better to have them establish Academies or should I just consume them so as to finish whatever tech I'm researching at the moment?
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Oct 13, 2015 05:55
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Baron Bifford posted:If you're going for the Science Victory, I suppose having a large number of cities helps you when it comes time to build the spaceship parts. Not particularly. There are only 6 parts to build, after all, and you're probably not going to bulb to every single one of the required techs simultaneously. The pure production part of the spaceship victory probably tops out at 2 or 3 decent production cities, with most of the delay coming from the last part you research. I think the general consensus on Scientists is that you put your early ones in Academies and save your late ones until you have Research Labs and then bulb them. What the dividing line between "early" and "late" is, exactly, is the main point of contention, though I've seen Public Schools or possibly Industrialism suggested as the turnaround points.
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Oct 13, 2015 06:08
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Unless you're Korea in which case you just build academies as far as the eye can see.
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Oct 13, 2015 06:15
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Baron Bifford posted:With regard to great scientists: is it better to have them establish Academies or should I just consume them so as to finish whatever tech I'm researching at the moment? Yup, public schools are the dividing point. When you're bulbing for techs, it shouldn't be whatever random tech you're working on in the base game. Scientists increase to be your last 5.33 (on quick) turns of research, so you use them to get to specific techs (arty, modern, labs, or statue) at timings or save them for 5 turns after you build labs to explode into lategame techs (hubble, nukes, xcom, stealth, or shelters generally. Internet and space techs also want this technique for their respective victories).
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Oct 13, 2015 07:03
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Etalommi posted:Yup, public schools are the dividing point. 8 turns on Normal. I often save scientists until I'm able to bulb them for Hubble Space Telescope, because that Wonder is easily the most powerful late-game if you're going for a Science victory. Then I save the remaining ones late to get as much science as possible by bulbing them to get the last tech I need for a Space Victory.
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Oct 13, 2015 07:22
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I like the general rule of thumb I read on someone's site about city plants: If the city you're planting will eventually generate an additional great scientist on its own before the game ends then the city is always worth planting.
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Oct 13, 2015 07:47
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It bugs me that a Civ can be 300 points ahead of everyone else, have conquered and/or razed a few cities to the ground and still be buddies with most of the world  If you do the same everyone and their friends just denounces you.
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Oct 13, 2015 10:38
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Is Beyond Earth worth getting if I have Civ5? It looks like it's just Civ5 In Space.
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Oct 13, 2015 18:20
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Baron Bifford posted:Is Beyond Earth worth getting if I have Civ5? It looks like it's just Civ5 In Space. It sucked originally, but is a lot more fun after the recent expansion pack. It is Civ 5 in space, only some things are fleshed out better like diplomacy and spying. It's easy and very unbalanced though. Very unbalanced.
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Oct 13, 2015 18:30
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So... wait two years for the DLCs to fix everything and buy the eventual Complete Edition on Steam sale?
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Oct 13, 2015 19:13
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Yes. It's like every other Firaxis game post Civ 2.
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Oct 13, 2015 19:17
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Etalommi posted:Yes. It's like every other Firaxis game post Civ 2. Eh, XCOM:EU was quite solid and didn't need the expansion to be good. However, I will agree that it's like every other Civ game post Civ 2. That series has always needed its expansions to be worth a drat.
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Oct 13, 2015 19:28
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Eh, XCOM:EU was quite solid and didn't need the expansion to be good. However, I will agree that it's like every other Civ game post Civ 2. That series has always needed its expansions to be worth a drat. It was OK, but a bit too samey for me. The expansion (and LW mod) made it a great game.
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Oct 13, 2015 19:37
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The Human Crouton posted:It sucked originally, but is a lot more fun after the recent expansion pack. So exactly like Civ 5 then.
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Oct 13, 2015 19:51
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Eric the Mauve posted:So exactly like Civ 5 then.
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Oct 13, 2015 22:53
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What are the advantages to playing the religion game? If my cities adopt foreign religions, do they get the benefits of those religions that their founding civ picked? What's the point of using inquisitors and missionaries to impose a certain religion?
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Oct 14, 2015 08:04
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Playing religion is generally to your disadvantage if you're playing anything higher than King because of the opportunity cost associated with going religion vs going anything else. If your cities adopt foreign religions, you get the follower benefits that they chose (nice stuff like Pagodas or +2  from Temples; be forewarned that while the AI weights certain follower bonuses more heavily than others, it's still largely arbitrary and will happily choose Liturgical Drama over anything else), but you don't get the founder bonus, so having another civ's religion in your city is directly enriching them.Inquisitors are mostly for keeping another civ's religions out--stationing one in or adjacent to one of your cities will prevent the AI from bombing you with Great Prophets--and are also used to permanently erase a city's Holy City status. Missionaries are great if you found a religion since you can spread it to any City State that pleases you. Depending on map size, if you took Tithe or Church Property, you can pretty much break the game's intended economy; Ceremonial Burial will give you plenty of extra ; Papal Primacy will guarantee permanent Friendship status with CSes, etc. Missionaries are basically for taking your religion to critical mass to get the most mileage out of your founder beliefs, and for getting your exerted religious pressure so high that the AI can't scrub it no matter what bonuses it has.
Fur20 fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 08:19
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The White Dragon posted:Playing religion is generally to your disadvantage if you're playing anything higher than King because of the opportunity cost associated with going religion vs going anything else.
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Oct 14, 2015 08:27
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Yeah. You're better off with things like granaries and beelining the National College ASAP, and avoiding the Piety social policy tree like the plague.
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Oct 14, 2015 08:28
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Speaking of Social Policies, which trees are the best? I've been told to go Tradition and Liberty first, but since I like to play Casimir what's a good tree to dump spare policy points in? As for Ideologies, how can I keep my people content when every other empire has a differing ideology? I get dissent even when my Tourism rating is higher than every other civ's. Is there more to the influence game than Tourism?
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Oct 14, 2015 08:34
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Inquisitors will also block the passive religious pressure from any religion other than the one it was bought from on a city it is stationed in. Religion is one of the most important things to focus on in multiplayer, but in single player the cost reduction for units for the AI on higher difficulties make it extremely hard to keep up. In general the non-faith bonuses from religion are GPT, Culture, and Happiness. The extra faith from focusing on religion is generally used for buying great people, mostly scientists, or science buildings with the Jesuit Education reformation. Good beliefs are Founder: Tithe, Church Property, Initiation Rites, and World Church Follower: Pagodas, Mosques, Production %, Temple Happiness and conditionally Divine Inspiration, Garden Happiness, Monasteries. Religious Art is occasionally good when you don't expect your religion to be anywhere but the cap and are planning on getting a Hermitage. Enhancer: Defender of Faith, Farther, Messiah, Reliquary, Just War, and Faster. Reformation: Only for Jesuit Education or Glory of God. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 08:37
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Baron Bifford posted:Speaking of Social Policies, which trees are the best? I've been told to go Tradition and Liberty first, but since I like to play Casimir what's a good tree to dump spare policy points in? Liberty is pretty junk all around, so you should skip it in the future. If you're gonna get the free Classical-era policy anyway, maybe put it into Piety for the Great Mosque (it's fantastic for religion because it makes your Missionaries 50% more effective) or Honor (great for preemptively spotting barbarian encampments before they can cause problems for your improvements, at least in the early game). Etalommi posted:Reformation: Only for Jesuit Education or Glory of God. Between Tradition, Patronage, and Rationalism, there's just no time to get your reformation belief until you've already won the game. At that point, the most fun thing to get is Unity of the Prophets to piss off the AI even more 
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Oct 14, 2015 08:50
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Are there any good map scripts floating around these days? I've been playing quite a bit of CBP, but I'm getting bored with the standard scripts.
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Oct 14, 2015 08:52
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Baron Bifford posted:Speaking of Social Policies, which trees are the best? I've been told to go Tradition and Liberty first, but since I like to play Casimir what's a good tree to dump spare policy points in? Playing Casimir, get full Tradition first, then policies go into Patronage until you unlock Rationalism.
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Oct 14, 2015 09:32
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The White Dragon posted:Between Tradition, Patronage, and Rationalism, there's just no time to get your reformation belief until you've already won the game. At that point, the most fun thing to get is Unity of the Prophets to piss off the AI even more Piety for Reformation is better than Patronage a lot of the time in MP, though the cheaty AI makes it rarely worth getting in SP. Cynic Jester posted:Are there any good map scripts floating around these days? I've been playing quite a bit of CBP, but I'm getting bored with the standard scripts. NQMap is good for interactivity - it's based off of Pangea but minimizes crazy chokepoints by reducing mountain chains and having a bit smarter placement of bodies of water. It also has some significant islands that are actually worth settling, the ability to add later strat resources to strat balance, and the ability to choose how many nat wonders you want. https://docs.google.com/document/d/16N_wB43A8WI363EFRLfHGIufXQsNqcifcHATuWEB7oU/edit
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Oct 14, 2015 10:00
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Chamale posted:If you can win comfortably on Prince doing whatever you want, you can win on Immortal playing the optimal strategy only. So if the game is feeling like a slog where you have to follow a script, turn down the difficulty two notches and try something new. The deity AI still gets modifiers to production, research, city+population unhappiness, they pay half maintenance on units & buildings, 2 free unit promotions, free starting techs, upgrade units for less, and a bunch of other stuff I'm probably forgetting. I still have to milk them for gold early on in order to succeed, but the bonuses I get make the early game far easier than a real deity game. I like it that way because I still have to watch out for those runaway AIs but I can survive the early game without min-maxing everything.
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Oct 14, 2015 10:48
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| # ? May 28, 2024 13:29 |
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Probably the biggest flaw with Civ 5 on high difficulty settings is that the early game is way harder than the mid and late game. They front-load the AI bonuses too much.
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Oct 14, 2015 11:21
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