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Nuns with Guns posted:You need to stop putting effort into games because then you'll fall in love with them and they can't love you back No! Nintendo cares about me!!
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Oct 13, 2015 05:11
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senrath posted:I've only ever seen it used in the context of "You only won because I wasn't trying like some kinda loser would." My second thought was people who charop with no regard for whether or not the resulting character is downright silly.
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Oct 13, 2015 05:26
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't do much online gaming, but I take it to mean "so desperate to look cool that you look pathetic no matter what." My first thought in the context of RPGs was the way some developers write their favourite stuff...like the way John Wick writes the Scorpion Clan in L5R, or the way that one guy writes the Ultramarines. It sorta started that way, but ended up being bandied about so much that now it basically means "At least I don't CARE about things, heh, I ain't even mad I lost!" while being voraciously mad that you lost.
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Oct 13, 2015 05:30
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senrath posted:I've only ever seen it used in the context of "You only won because I wasn't trying like some kinda loser would." I've always seen it used to mean a person who isn't good at something and is trying to compensate by copping an attitude about it and cargo culting the actions of those who are good- somebody who's trying too hard. The classic example would be wannabe hardcore raiders in WoW who spend ridiculous amounts of time each week raiding and never get anywhere because they're trying to emulate the high-end players without understanding why those players are successful or why they organize themselves like they do. (But they've heard of the leaders of certain such groups being assholes to their group, so they're damned sure going to scream at everybody as soon they wipe, and the group's going to take it because they think it's how you succeed.)
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Oct 13, 2015 10:19
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Halloween Jack posted:"so desperate to look cool/smart/informed that you look pathetic no matter what." This is the way I've always used tryhard, this whole time I assumed everyone else was too.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:30
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Nuns with Guns posted:You need to stop putting effort into games because then you'll fall in love with them and they can't love you back Undertale loves you back. 
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Oct 13, 2015 18:34
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ProfessorCirno posted:It sorta started that way, but ended up being bandied about so much that now it basically means "At least I don't CARE about things, heh, I ain't even mad I lost!" while being voraciously mad that you lost. it's this
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Oct 13, 2015 19:06
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Captain Foo posted:it's this It really is. If you don't believe me believe the SAclopedia.
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Oct 13, 2015 19:19
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Yeah it's supposed to decry cut throat tactics but it instantly became just being butthurt.
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Oct 14, 2015 12:35
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Bongo Bill posted:No! Nintendo cares about me!! You're having a sexual relationship with your uncle?
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Oct 14, 2015 13:04
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Jedit posted:You're having a sexual relationship with your uncle? Funny enough, "my uncle works for Nintendo!" was my go to example for a tryhard.
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Oct 14, 2015 16:25
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Error 404 posted:Funny enough, "my uncle works for Nintendo!" was my go to example for a tryhard. That's just lying for social status
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Oct 14, 2015 17:55
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Cross-posting from the Deals thread:InShaneee posted:I'm hoping we eventually get to the day where DTRPG credits are as ubiquitous as Steam keys. IIRC, Better Angels KS backers got the PDF via dropbox. inklesspen posted:I'm hoping we eventually get to the day where something other than DTRPG is the standard method of distribution. I'm rooting for itch.io. Steam can be a DRM mechanism. The publisher can choose not to use it that way and in the vast majority of cases it's a very unobtrusive form of DRM even when it is, but it's still DRM. Setting aside the fact that Valve has the money and manpower to make Steam into a polished application because they make a bunch of money off of making and selling actual games, I feel like we're not going to see wide adoption of a Steam-esque platform as long as the standard is a PDF that you can distribute at will as soon as it's been downloaded. True, DTRPG has watermarks, but I wouldn't really be surprised if publishers still don't see it that way. So I guess the question is, what would a DRM-enabled PDF alternative even look like?
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Oct 27, 2015 16:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:
A pain in the rear end that no one would want to deal with for long. If you're really kept up at night by the thought of pirates, a better (but not good) solution is the d&d4e insider stuff. You'd have a paid login, can login from wherever, all rules and a few tools like a character builder and maybe be able to save characters you make. E: DRM is really a zero sum game. Pirates crack that poo poo for fun, and rights fuckery only serves to piss off and frustrate the legit customers who paid for your stuff. Error 404 fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 16:49
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gradenko_2000 posted:So I guess the question is, what would a DRM-enabled PDF alternative even look like? Kindle books. You need to control both the method of distribution and the method of accessing the files. The reason steam works is that you need steam to run the programs you install with it. Which means you need to be associated to your account. You can sort of get around that by logging into a computer then going offline, allowing you to log online in another location, but you can't just google drive your friend that copy of codblops you just downloaded and replicate it into infinity. Also Error 404 posted:A pain in the rear end that no one would want to deal with for long.
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Oct 27, 2015 16:53
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Kurieg posted:Kindle books. You need to control both the method of distribution and the method of accessing the files. You can strip the DRM out of Kindle books pretty easily though, if one is so inclined. I guess people pirate steam games too but mostly the sales mean it isn't necessary. RPGs have the perilous problem of a huge number of entrants to the market being willing to work for free, which means that prices for paid content are driven down even if the free content is immensely poo poo.
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Oct 27, 2015 16:56
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occamsnailfile posted:You can strip the DRM out of Kindle books pretty easily though, if one is so inclined. Yeah, the reasons Kindle works is the exact same reasons Steam works, and it mainly boils down to pricing, availability and ease of use. I used to pirate English books because it was easier than having them shipped to Norway. Then the Kindle came out. For the same price as I'd pay to have a physical book shipped to me(or less. Usually a lot less), I would get a better quality product that took less effort than pirating it. I pay for Spotify Premium because it is so much easier than loving around with mp3s. I still pirate RPG ebooks, even ebooks I already own from legitimate sources, because the product delivered is sub-par compared to the pirated version. Until that changes, pirated ebooks are going to be a thing.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:07
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I have to second this. Take for instance Pathfinder the file size of the pirated pdf is usually around one fifth that of the legitimate Paizo pdf due to all the extra embedded stuff meant to be pseudoDRM. Not only that but the pirated copies also benefit from having extractable images I can use with roll20, whereas the official ones are designed to make that exceptionally difficult.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:11
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If I recall correctly, there was much discussion of DRM when legitimate RPG PDFs became available, and the general consensus was that it sucked and basically punished you for paying for the product instead of pirating it, due to the filesize problems that TO mentioned as well as other stuff.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:16
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Terrible Opinions posted:I have to second this. Take for instance Pathfinder the file size of the pirated pdf is usually around one fifth that of the legitimate Paizo pdf due to all the extra embedded stuff meant to be pseudoDRM. Not only that but the pirated copies also benefit from having extractable images I can use with roll20, whereas the official ones are designed to make that exceptionally difficult. This, pretty much. The only people who get hosed over by DRM are the actual paying customers.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:17
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gradenko_2000 posted:So I guess the question is, what would a DRM-enabled PDF alternative even look like? Everyone switched to watermarks for a reason. It was big news when they switched.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:34
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I don't' know why RPG books have to be treated differently than just books. I feel like if publishers started just putting their stuff up as kindle versions on amazon for a typical kindle-like discount, that'd be that. The one drawback is that looking at illustrations on a kindle still kind of sucks, but if every other book publisher can figure out how to work with that restriction, RPG publishers can too.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:39
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gradenko_2000 posted:So I guess the question is, what would a DRM-enabled PDF alternative even look like? PDFs can be encrusted with a form of DRM already, no need to gently caress with the format. DTRPG used to use it, way back in the early days (~2003/2004) before they borged RPGnow. It was total poo poo and I'm glad it died.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:50
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Thanks all, I didn't know DRM'd PDFs were already invented. I do agree that they should just go the GOG route, including sales and deep discounts
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Oct 27, 2015 17:53
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Leperflesh posted:I don't' know why RPG books have to be treated differently than just books. I feel like if publishers started just putting their stuff up as kindle versions on amazon for a typical kindle-like discount, that'd be that. The one drawback is that looking at illustrations on a kindle still kind of sucks, but if every other book publisher can figure out how to work with that restriction, RPG publishers can too. There is at least some genuine effort required in converting and laying out an ebook format, and a lot of RPG publishers don't seem to have or want to have any experience with that at all. Like Chuubo's has an ebook version and I was honestly shocked that this was the case. But I agree, it would be awfully nice. Some publishers do just sort of lazily slap out a conversion to ebook and it doesn't always work well--I bought a Judge Dredd volume in ebook and it was just the laziest, shittiest loving scan with no effort to merge splash pages, tons of useless white space, etc. RPG publishers might be able to recoup the expense over time but it probably wouldn't pay for the initial outlay quickly.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:54
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RPG books should be hypertext by default.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:03
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Leperflesh posted:I don't' know why RPG books have to be treated differently than just books. I feel like if publishers started just putting their stuff up as kindle versions on amazon for a typical kindle-like discount, that'd be that. The one drawback is that looking at illustrations on a kindle still kind of sucks, but if every other book publisher can figure out how to work with that restriction, RPG publishers can too. A novel or any other pure/mostly text book in Indesign is fairly easy to export as an ebook now. It only takes a few hours of work. For most RPGs, you would essentially have to re-do the layout because RPGs typically have 2 or 3 columns of text per page, plus lots of illustrations and other features like sidebars that do not translate well to ebooks. That's a lot of work for RPG publishers who may not have the budget or access to a talented graphic designer who can make that happen. Plus, there's relatively little demand from customers.Most RPG customers don't even like PDFs and only get the print versions.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:03
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occamsnailfile posted:Some publishers do just sort of lazily slap out a conversion to ebook and it doesn't always work well--I bought a Judge Dredd volume in ebook and it was just the laziest, shittiest loving scan with no effort to merge splash pages, tons of useless white space, etc.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:04
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It can't be that hard, there are slews of independent "novelists" self-publishing incredibly terrible stories and novels on Amazon for Kindle constantly. I really think it's mostly just a lack of bothering to learn how to do it. e. clockworkjoe posted:A novel or any other pure/mostly text book in Indesign is fairly easy to export as an ebook now. It only takes a few hours of work. For most RPGs, you would essentially have to re-do the layout because RPGs typically have 2 or 3 columns of text per page, plus lots of illustrations and other features like sidebars that do not translate well to ebooks. That's a lot of work for RPG publishers who may not have the budget or access to a talented graphic designer who can make that happen. Plus, there's relatively little demand from customers.Most RPG customers don't even like PDFs and only get the print versions. Ehhh, yeah that's a good point I suppose, although desktop publishing software makes layout pretty straightforward to do these days. I do think there's demand, though: the only reason most RPG customers don't like PDFs is because they tend to be done very badly - especially the bad old "scan every page to be a huge graphic" PDFs that were ridiculously huge in file size. RPG customers do still love their print books for use at the table, of course, but if an e-book version was priced reasonably ($8 vs. a $35 book, for example), the demand would be there. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 18:06
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Yeah, a quality ePub is a reasonable amount of work and Chuubo has a good ePub largely because I love Chuubo and love ebooks and make them for free. If I charged even a minimal amount for my services in that area there wouldn't be ePubs, because people don't buy them enough to justify it. (Although, ePubs that are merely mediocre—basically, all the text just kind of there—are not that difficult to make.)
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Oct 27, 2015 18:13
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Leperflesh posted:RPG customers do still love their print books for use at the table, of course, but if an e-book version was priced reasonably ($8 vs. a $35 book, for example), the demand would be there. Also I'm old.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:15
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I should also mention that a lot of publishers don't understand ePub's strengths and make really bad ePubs because they're trying to include all the things that the PDF and print copies will have, like color artwork and complicated fonts. Ultimately this often doesn't work (because you'll read an ePub on screens of extremely variant shapes and types), and you get things like Onyx Path's Anarchs Unleashed ePub, that winds up being slow to load and difficult to read on a Kindle because it tries to use big images and fonts that aren't designed to be read on an epaper screen.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:17
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Leperflesh posted:It can't be that hard, there are slews of independent "novelists" self-publishing incredibly terrible stories and novels on Amazon for Kindle constantly. I really think it's mostly just a lack of bothering to learn how to do it. ebook prices are going to be identical to PDF prices. If the print book costs $35, then they won't make any money from an $8 ebook. Most of a book's costs comes from the production of the text and art, not the print and shipping costs.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:42
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Most ebooks have very little art and generally simplistic layouts. Also I don't honestly know if that's true given how cheap rpgs books suddenly become when they decide to go with more normal book sizes and dimensions.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:47
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Bongo Bill posted:RPG books should be hypertext by default. Now I want to see Underground as a legit hypertext series.
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Oct 27, 2015 19:20
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clockworkjoe posted:ebook prices are going to be identical to PDF prices. If the print book costs $35, then they won't make any money from an $8 ebook. Most of a book's costs comes from the production of the text and art, not the print and shipping costs. Why isn't that the case for non-rpg books? Even books with graphics cost a lot less as ebooks. Print and shipping actually does matter. Actually though, I secretly believe that books are the wrong way to document a game system. Software documentation is moving away from the linear book model. Once the D20 SRD was available, I used it far more than my print PHB, for example. Hypertext webs are better for technical reference. And the emergence of two dominant mobile platforms is making it easier to create and publish apps, too: an RPG reference app could include focused tutorial and reference objects, and dynamic systems can be visually modeled with an interface that changes depending on input and context. One obstacle is finding ways to allow players to embed their house rules and custom content. But that's not impossible to do either; the old offline 4th edition D&D tools supported that. Costs have to come down, but standardized RPG app platforms might help. Eventually I'd like to see the entry point for any RPG being a website with the rules structure presented free; income streams would come from subscription-based access to the mobile and/or desktop apps, plus the flavor content. With flavor more divorced from rules, it becomes more palatable to read the flavor in an eBook format while having the app/web-based rules available on a laptop or pad at the game table. And an eBook that is mostly text and illustrations is cheaper to lay out than one that includes lots of tables and statblocks. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 19:22
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Leperflesh posted:Why isn't that the case for non-rpg books? Even books with graphics cost a lot less as ebooks. Print and shipping actually does matter. Ebooks cost about as much as physical books in most of the world. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 19:23
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Ebooks about as much as physical books in most of the world. Yeah, actually producing and distributing the physical object is a surprisingly small portion of the cost of most books.
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Oct 27, 2015 19:26
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The up-front cost of a book is amortized by the per-book profit margin. If an eBook option sells five times as many copies as your printed version, you can afford to put a much smaller markup on it. The fact that distribution is almost free does actually help that calculation work. "Most of the cost is up-front" is a statement that presumes a small print run. If you print 2000 copies, then yes, definitely. If you print 200,000 copies, then no, because your up-front cost was almost the same but you paid for 198k more bricks of wood pulp to be produced and shipped. This is the key value proposition of the eBook. The question then isn't "should eBooks be cheaper" but rather "will eBooks that are specifically created in a way that makes them useful and attractive products in their own right, greatly outsell physical copies?" Because if they do, then you can charge a lot less for them. e. And it's worth taking into account that eBooks offer different advertising and promotional avenues. It's far easier to get an eBook onto Amazon than it is to get a printed book onto book store shelves. One drawback there is that you may be cutting the FLGS out of the loop, which may reduce the ability of your customers to find games locally. Getting space in game stores is much harder, but once you do, you create a more sustainable playbase to attract new customers and keep your current ones interested and playing. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 19:35
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Leperflesh posted:Actually though, I secretly believe that books are the wrong way to document a game system. Software documentation is moving away from the linear book model. Once the D20 SRD was available, I used it far more than my print PHB, for example. Hypertext webs are better for technical reference. An RPG rulebook is, first and foremost, a technical document and ruleset to help you enjoy your toy and play with it in the most fun manner possible. Unfortunately, the combination of RPG writers not being technical writers, and RPGs generally being more bathroom readers than actual rulesets (lookin' at you, White Wolf and D&D) has stunted their development. RPG books should be highly achronical, atemporal tools. I shouldn't need to leaf through chargen after the first session; I should be able to autofilter feats I don't qualify for to not display. 4e Insider is what RPGs should really be going forward, and they never will because a grog got mad once. 
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Oct 27, 2015 19:38
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