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How about pumping massive quantities of federal aid in the form of anti-poverty programs into the places experiencing the greatest rates of gun violence? A concerted, nationwide effort to address generational poverty and hopelessness among our most disadvantaged citizens How about seriously addressing mental health as a public health issue in the form of vastly expanded federal and state programs, instead of paying lip service to it whenever we can't grasp how someone could commit such an atrocity? And real effort put towards rehabilitation of those convicted of violent crimes, not just warehousing temporarily and destroying job prospects forever How about real, concrete public health initiatives that address violence itself? Combating domestic violence, dangerous attitudes about aggression & masculinity , and cycles of drug addiction. We know there's no concrete line that permanently separates THE GOOD GUN OWNER from becoming THE BAD GUN OWNER, so instead of just addressing the bad why not have proactive measures? I enjoy owning firearms and would rather not give them up, so obviously I'm going to support these initiatives first. But I truly, truly believe these would be more successful than most of the methods of restricting gun access proposed, and it would confer enormous benefits to the country
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Oct 13, 2015 16:51
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CommieGIR posted:I'm not avoiding the question, I answered it. You are promoting this idea that the equilibrium is going to be a total gun ban, and therefore any and all gun control laws are evil. So what makes you think it's not? Not necessarily a total gun ban, but heavily restricted enough that it's too onerous for the average person to own one, let alone use one in self defense.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:51
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walgreenslatino posted:How about pumping massive quantities of federal aid in the form of anti-poverty programs into the places experiencing the greatest rates of gun violence? A concerted, nationwide effort to address generational poverty and hopelessness among our most disadvantaged citizens [hits a button and balloons and confetti drop out of the ceiling] See this guy gets it. I agree with everything in this post.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:54
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xwing posted:Besides your obvious disdain... that might be only one explanation. Without numbers I'd suspect it's also because they're generally poorer and in urban areas that are stricter on gun ownership. No one has ever proposed gun control to keep guns out of dark people's hands... Sure, that is certainly part of it. However, polling indicates that they also support gun control to a far greater extent than the tough guy cosplay demographic, so the fact that they're in places with stronger gun control is not random coincidence or something that was entirely foisted upon them without consent
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Oct 13, 2015 16:54
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Why bother banning guns now? I already lost a friend. Why ban them now? Either way it sucks to lose someone like that and I hope you will be okay. 
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Oct 13, 2015 16:56
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various cheeses posted:So what makes you think it's not? Not necessarily a total gun ban, but heavily restricted enough that it's too onerous for the average person to own one, let alone use one in self defense. How dare the government deny me the right to have easy access to death tools! Why the gently caress should you have easy access to these things? Why? If you want them for self-defense, prove you can defend yourself by receiving training and be qualified to do so. Nobody gets handed a hand gun and suddenly turns into a drop of the hat pistol sharp shooter able to react with combat reflexes at a moments notice. various cheeses posted:[hits a button and balloons and confetti drop out of the ceiling] Why not both. Just because he's humming your tune does not mean that its only one or the other. You'll also notice, and drat it you are making me agree with Tezzor, that the Right will oppose even just the proposed solution. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 16:57
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walgreenslatino posted:How about pumping massive quantities of federal aid in the form of anti-poverty programs into the places experiencing the greatest rates of gun violence? A concerted, nationwide effort to address generational poverty and hopelessness among our most disadvantaged citizens Because a) Gun owners don't care about any of these things, would actively oppose and vote against them if they were actively pushed for, and are merely nice-sounding deflections away from criticism of their toys. b) The US human development index and inequality-adjusted human development index are not so far outside the civilized world as to solely explain our astronomically higher murder rates. Easy access to the most expedient means of killing people is also a significant factor.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:58
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Tezzor posted:Sure, that is certainly part of it. However, polling indicates that they also support gun control to a far greater extent than the tough guy cosplay demographic, so the fact that they're in places with stronger gun control is not random coincidence or something that was entirely foisted upon them without consent I guess it'd be hard to disentangle all the factors because minorities are also heavily Democratic which favors gun control. Then the history around the "Second Great Migration" which I will admit I don't know much about other than a by-line summary.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:05
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Tezzor posted:Because It's not a deflection. I genuinely want all these things very very badly. They are more important to me than my hobby. I will vote for them, I do vote for aspects of them whenever possible. But to do so I am forced to also vote for ineffective laws that do not address the root problem, which place restrictions on my rights . There are many people like me, I am not alone, and the more disdain you heap on them the less likely they will be willing to come out and vote for all the other great things that aren't gun control. I don't think poverty is the sole issue at all. I think there is an enormous cultural problem in American society that is being totally ignored, especially by some of the most vocal proponents of gun control. Wayne LaPierre is an idiot for blaming violent videogames, but there is a violent undercurrent to US culture and it gets short-handed to "Gun Culture" when its really not the same thing. Domestic violence, toxic masculinity, and hagiography of violence is not exclusive to the poor.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:07
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Tezzor posted:Because I'd vote for them if you clowns could agree to shut up about gun control for 5 seconds and stop trying to push your dumb agenda on the people who don't commit the crimes. Also our murder rates aren't astronomically high compared to the rest of the world, just parts of Europe. Our murder rate has always been high, before, during, and after gun control and it doesn't do poo poo. It's been dropping and continues to drop regardless of ridiculous guns sales in the past years.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:08
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I would think that reducing poverty and improving the socioeconomic status quo are good enough goals in and of themselves without having to use them as a trade-off for gun control legislation.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:09
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walgreenslatino posted:It's not a deflection. I genuinely want all these things very very badly. They are more important to me than my hobby. I will vote for them, I do vote for aspects of them whenever possible. But to do so I am forced to also vote for ineffective laws that do not address the root problem, which place restrictions on my rights . There are many people like me, I am not alone, and the more disdain you heap on them the less likely they will be willing to come out and vote for all the other great things that aren't gun control. Agreed. The second gun control is a dead issue, I'll likely vote D on everything. Except the second you get a D supermajority it's bye bye guns, like in all the blue states post-Newtown. Compare it to abortion laws. The republicans likely want to ban it fully, but that won't fly, so they chip away at it the same way the democrats try to chip away at gun ownership.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:I would think that reducing poverty and improving the socioeconomic status quo are good enough goals in and of themselves without having to use them as a trade-off for gun control legislation. You're correct, but you're never going to get them from the radical right unless you frame that that way, and it would be really cool if we could fix these root issues and reduce violence without taking away a constitutional right. A "compromise" if you will
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Oct 13, 2015 17:13
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various cheeses posted:I'd vote for them if you clowns could agree to shut up about gun control for 5 seconds and stop trying to push your dumb agenda on the people who don't commit the crimes. Sooooo....you key your entire voting scheme on a single, basically worthless, point. Wow. walgreenslatino posted:You're correct, but you're never going to get them from the radical right unless you frame that that way, and it would be really cool if we could fix these root issues and reduce violence without taking away a constitutional right. Never talking about a very real issue. Might as well compromise with the Right to stop talking about Climate Change and Evolution.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:18
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CommieGIR posted:Why the gently caress should you have easy access to these things? Why? If you want them for self-defense, prove you can defend yourself by receiving training and be qualified to do so. the chief right of self defense is to defend one's self against continued existence, thousands of middle aged white men every year exercise this right and it is a massive restriction on personal freedom if you inhibit their ability to do so
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Oct 13, 2015 17:18
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various cheeses posted:Compare it to abortion laws. The republicans likely want to ban it fully, but that won't fly, so they chip away at it the same way the democrats try to chip away at gun ownership. Oh come the gently caress on. Reasonable gun control laws are not the same a religiously inspired fight against women's health topics.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:20
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various cheeses posted:I'd vote for them if you clowns could agree to shut up about gun control for 5 seconds and stop trying to push your dumb agenda on the people who don't commit the crimes. It is astronomically high compared the rest of the industrialized world, of which Europe is a part but not the whole. American "gun control" to this point in the modern era has been a patchwork of meager local regulations that could not possibly work with open travel between states and into cities, so it cannot be used as evidence. The murder rate everywhere is going down and the US still has a murder rate 3-48 times that of the developed world, and the upper end of that range is our next door neighbor. Increased gun sales mean nothing because the diffusion of guns was already enough that any increase in number would have a negligible effect, which is not the same as saying that a sharp decrease in number would also have a negligible effect, and the increase has been one of paranoids and fanboys hoarding guns because they see the writing on the wall; the actual rates of gun ownership are going down. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html 
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Oct 13, 2015 17:20
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Just got a call from a guy I work with, he just got into shooting, heard through the grapevine that I was a gun-haver too. I guess a bunch of people at the office have expressed interest in trying it, so he asked if I would be interested in loaning some guns and time towards an after work event at the shooting range, with proceeds going to his favored charity for underprivileged youth. We're winning over hearts and minds, somehow. 
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Oct 13, 2015 17:20
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walgreenslatino posted:You're correct, but you're never going to get them from the radical right unless you frame that that way, and it would be really cool if we could fix these root issues and reduce violence without taking away a constitutional right. So instead of pushing on one avenue of legislation (gun control) that the right doesn't like, we should push them on multiple issues they hate (welfare) and/or have terrible ideas about (public health/mental health)?
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Oct 13, 2015 17:21
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Snowman Crossing posted:Just got a call from a guy I work with, he just got into shooting, heard through the grapevine that I was a gun-haver too. I guess a bunch of people at the office have expressed interest in trying it, so he asked if I would be interested in loaning some guns and time towards an after work event at the shooting range, with proceeds going to his favored charity for underprivileged youth. And next week we can treat Combat PTSD suffers with some range time! Won't that be great?! There is a certain sense of irony in a guy holding range time to benefit a charity for underprivileged youths.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:22
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Snowman Crossing posted:Just got a call from a guy I work with, he just got into shooting, heard through the grapevine that I was a gun-haver too. I guess a bunch of people at the office have expressed interest in trying it, so he asked if I would be interested in loaning some guns and time towards an after work event at the shooting range, with proceeds going to his favored charity for underprivileged youth. statistically, far more minds than hearts
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Oct 13, 2015 17:22
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Popular Thug Drink posted:statistically, far more minds than hearts Headshot!
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Oct 13, 2015 17:23
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VitalSigns posted:Ah yes, we can't have reasonable gun laws because they empower Obama the Gun-Grabber. Enforcing the laws against straw purchases will make Obama grow fifty times his size, smash the Supreme Court, roll a joint with every copy of the Bill of Rights, tear apart your house to eat your guns, then put you in a homosexual breeding camp. You're an idiot and you're wrong but this is a v. funny post and will be the first and only time I vote 5 on a gun control thread. fake e: you forgot Mark Levin on super-Obama's shoulder screaming about how if only we'd listened...
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Oct 13, 2015 17:23
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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TwinsensRevenge posted:So instead of pushing on one avenue of legislation (gun control) that the right doesn't like, we should push them on multiple issues they hate (welfare) and/or have terrible ideas about (public health/mental health)? Yeah that's kind of a big problem. It also means that if you are a single issue gun freedom voter you are a terrible person making everything else worse for everyone worldwide.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:25
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sean10mm posted:It also means that if you are a single issue gun freedom voter you are a terrible person making everything else worse for everyone worldwide. BUT MAH GUNS!!! 
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Oct 13, 2015 17:25
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CommieGIR posted:Oh come the gently caress on. Reasonable gun control laws are not the same a religiously inspired fight against women's health topics. What does "reasonable gun control" look like to you?
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Oct 13, 2015 17:27
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CommieGIR posted:BUT MAH GUNS!!! My guns are cool and good and not even a little bit important in the grand scheme of things. Any decent person would put up with far more restrictions on their dangerous toy based hobby in return for making things better in general.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:29
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TwinsensRevenge posted:So instead of pushing on one avenue of legislation (gun control) that the right doesn't like, we should push them on multiple issues they hate (welfare) and/or have terrible ideas about (public health/mental health)? So instead of pushing one avenue that hasn't worked and is being utterly stonewalled anyway, we should try framing this as a real compromise. Instead of demanding the Right accepts gun restrictions in exchange for absolutely nothing they want, we try giving them something they very much want in exchange for something they don't. I know a lot of republicans, I know a lot of gun-rights people, a huge sticking point is that none of the proposals have been a compromise AT ALL. At least propose it. At least try. Or even better, if that doesnt work maybe one of those times Dems have a supermajority they could loving do something about poverty and mental health instead of sitting on their hands and whining about how the meanie Republicans just wouldnt let them  If no possibility is feasible then what are we doing here but pissing in the air
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Oct 13, 2015 17:31
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various cheeses posted:What does "reasonable gun control" look like to you? Insurance requirements, mental health checks, training records and tracking/licensing. walgreenslatino posted:So instead of pushing one avenue that hasn't worked and is being utterly stonewalled anyway, we should try framing this as a real compromise. Instead of demanding the Right accepts gun restrictions in exchange for absolutely nothing they want, we try giving them something they very much want in exchange for something they don't. I know a lot of republicans, I know a lot of gun-rights people, a huge sticking point is that none of the proposals have been a compromise AT ALL. At least propose it. At least try.  I'm sorry, are we talking about the same Right that purposefully bred the Tea Party and the obstructionist movement? Because I'm gonna die of laughter if you think there is any compromising with those mentally handicapped morons.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:31
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various cheeses posted:What does "reasonable gun control" look like to you? making sure the muzzle is firmly in the mouth and pointed slightly upwards, into the center of the skull, and that the area behind you is clear of bystanders or hard material to prevent ricochet (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2015 17:32
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CommieGIR posted:Insurance requirements, mental health checks, training records and tracking/licensing. We already have mental health checks, they just to be improved and we need to make sure states submit their poo poo. There's an NRA-backed bill from Senator Cornyn that addresses a lot of that - people in this very thread agreed on it. I agree with the training too. I took a concealed carry class to get a license and it was extremely good knowledge. They tell you when it is appropriate to use force and when not to, and push deescalation as your first response to everything. Insurance though? No thanks, insurance companies are a bloated enough tick on society.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:36
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Snowman Crossing posted:Just got a call from a guy I work with, he just got into shooting, heard through the grapevine that I was a gun-haver too. I guess a bunch of people at the office have expressed interest in trying it, so he asked if I would be interested in loaning some guns and time towards an after work event at the shooting range, with proceeds going to his favored charity for underprivileged youth. Yes, loan your guns out so the crazy guy at work can kill people with your guns. Good idea. I hope you get the death penalty as well.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:36
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various cheeses posted:We already have mental health checks, they just to be improved and we need to make sure states submit their poo poo. There's an NRA-backed bill from Senator Cornyn that addresses a lot of that - people in this very thread agreed on it. I agree with the training too. I took a concealed carry class to get a license and it was extremely good knowledge. They tell you when it is appropriate to use force and when not to, and push deescalation as your first response to everything. The fact that you continue to vote for inbred retards just because they love guns only shows that you're part of the problem with this country.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:37
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:The fact that you continue to vote for inbred retards just because they love guns only shows that you're part of the problem with this country. Continue to? I'm just going to do it this election because gun control is center stage this time around.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:39
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various cheeses posted:Continue to? I'm just going to do it this election because gun control is center stage this time around. Still proves that you're the real problem with this country.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:40
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various cheeses posted:We already have mental health checks, they just to be improved and we need to make sure states submit their poo poo. There's an NRA-backed bill from Senator Cornyn that addresses a lot of that - people in this very thread agreed on it. I agree with the training too. I took a concealed carry class to get a license and it was extremely good knowledge. They tell you when it is appropriate to use force and when not to, and push deescalation as your first response to everything. NRA-backed bill. From the group that brought you "Where's his birth certificate?" and "He's secretly a Muslim" comes: "Reasonable Mental Health Checks" Don't make me laugh. No, that is not enough training. And multiple real world tests against people with concealed carry training only showed that they are not only unable to stop an active shooter event, they tend to cause injuries and freeze up when actually in a scenario. They are the bare minimum of what would be a combat course, since that is what you should be trained in, not just 'Here's a gun, shoot it a little, try not to hit anybody, and TRY NOT TO SHOOT THE VICTIM AND COVER UP YOUR MISTAKE' various cheeses posted:Continue to? I'm just going to do it this election because gun control is center stage this time around. You vote based on single issues and its OUR FAULT?! Better yet, you vote on single issues that are not actually issues since the Right Wing talking point has been thoroughly debunked through 6 years of contrary evidence. Holy poo poo are you dense.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:40
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CommieGIR posted:NRA-backed bill. From the group that brought you "Where's his birth certificate?" and "He's secretly a Muslim" comes: "Reasonable Mental Health Checks" lmao This is why America needs to be destroyed.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:41
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CommieGIR posted:NRA-backed bill. From the group that brought you "Where's his birth certificate?" and "He's secretly a Muslim" comes: "Reasonable Mental Health Checks" Did you even read the bill? It's actually a good bill. I think you're getting pretty hysterical without getting all the facts. I'm voting based on the issue that affects me most right at this instant. When it's gone, I'll likely be voting for the same poo poo you do, but hey keep telling me I'm wrong and evil for having an opinion different than yours. Having a two party system is the shittiest part of this country. You can never get everything you want.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:43
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various cheeses posted:I'm voting based on the issue that affects me most right at this instant. When it's gone, I'll likely be voting for the same poo poo you do, but hey keep telling me I'm wrong and evil for having an opinion different than yours. Let me translate that for you "I'm voting for regressive bullshit because my one linchpin issue makes me do stupid things like support a political group that actively seeks to undermine the entire country to prove a point." You're wrong. You're not evil, but you are very stupid. The NRA could back a bill where everyone gets a free BMW and I'd still be extremely suspicious of its intent considering their wealth of aggravated bullshit. Trying to rehabilitate the NRA by pointing out ONE bill they are trying to pass that MIGHT do some good versus the dozens of bills they've lobbied/pushed that have done immense damage is not going to save their very tarnished image. This is a group that has actively undermined the CDC and other medical groups studies on gun violence and actual science because it makes guns look bad. gently caress them. various cheeses posted:Having a two party system is the shittiest part of this country. You can never get everything you want. Agreed, but considering you voting for a regressive party solely out of a single, very stupid issue makes you a part of the problem. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 17:45
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CommieGIR posted:Agreed, but considering you voting for a regressive party solely out of a single, very stupid issue makes you a part of the problem. gun owners are the #1 predator of gun owners, so really they are the solution not the problem. we need more of them
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Oct 13, 2015 17:49
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