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WarLocke posted:Honestly the show hasn't been that good at making you sympathize with Keira. That has always been part of the show I think. Kiera is presented as the good guy at the start but then as you learn more and more you see her fighting to recreate a future where people have to riot to get food and corporations have no limitations. When she gets it through her skull that her future is gone she begins to come around to the idea that she should fight for good no matter what it does to the future. The second she thinks she can go back home to her time though? Right back to doing whatever she can to do so. Arguably everyone who died this season was blood directly on her hands. She has always been selfish and flawed.
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Oct 12, 2015 20:44
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JossiRossi posted:I can not recall exactly why I think this, but I thought maybe it was implied he had died by this point? Would have been neat though if they did the makeup well enough again. Old Julian was played by a different actor, it wasn't makeup. Maybe he wasn't available?
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Oct 12, 2015 21:17
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TomWaitsForNoMan posted:Old Julian was played by a different actor, it wasn't makeup. Maybe he wasn't available? Oh, I'm just dumb then, could have sworn it was the same kid in a ton of makeup.
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Oct 12, 2015 21:23
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JossiRossi posted:Oh, I'm just dumb then, could have sworn it was the same kid in a ton of makeup. No, they just got an old guy with a weird resemblance to the young guy. The one time I remember seeing (young) Julian in costume, he had a silly beard and was blowing up a prison/factory.
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Oct 12, 2015 21:31
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JossiRossi posted:That has always been part of the show I think. Kiera is presented as the good guy at the start but then as you learn more and more you see her fighting to recreate a future where people have to riot to get food and corporations have no limitations. When she gets it through her skull that her future is gone she begins to come around to the idea that she should fight for good no matter what it does to the future. The second she thinks she can go back home to her time though? Right back to doing whatever she can to do so. Arguably everyone who died this season was blood directly on her hands. She has always been selfish and flawed. Yeah, that was kind of what I was getting at. There's an honest argument to be made that Liber8 are the 'good guys'. Yeah, they kill a fuckton of people, but do you really think the corporate autocracy future they come from isn't responsible for even worse?
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Oct 13, 2015 00:32
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Mortanis posted:I'm pretty sure that Kellogg vanishing doesn't mean Piron automatically reverts to the guy he usurped. Kellogg would have taken steps to forever bar Alec from gaining power again, so I wonder how he did. Yeah but how much of that is the board's decision and Kellog's influence? Without Kellog there and the board in serious poo poo they might very well beg Alec to come back.
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Oct 13, 2015 01:30
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WarLocke posted:Yeah, that was kind of what I was getting at. There's an honest argument to be made that Liber8 are the 'good guys'. Yeah, they kill a fuckton of people, but do you really think the corporate autocracy future they come from isn't responsible for even worse? Did I miss something or wasn't Julian's huge bodycount because he blew up a Sadtech factory populated with mind-controlled human slaves? Seems pretty clear who had the moral high ground, future-wise, anyhow. IMO the dystopian future had no 'good guys', just villains, the villains that opposed them, and the people tacitly approving of one side or the other through inaction or active suppression. Liber8 was always a good/sympathetic cause. Its villains were redeemed over time much more through exposition to the viewer than substantial change. Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah but how much of that is the board's decision and Kellog's influence? Without Kellog there and the board in serious poo poo they might very well beg Alec to come back.
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Oct 13, 2015 02:11
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Did I miss something or wasn't Julian's huge bodycount because he blew up a Sadtech factory populated with mind-controlled human slaves? It's been forever since I watched that episode, but IIRC it was presented as the only way those people would ever be 'free', what SadTech had done to them was irreversible. Putting them out of their misery was still a horrible thing to do, but not nearly as holy gently caress evil as deciding 'hey, let's literally mind wipe people and make them work for us for the rest of their lives"
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Oct 13, 2015 02:24
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That was my point. "There's an honest argument to be made that Liber8 are the 'good guys'." -> No kidding; they were pretty obviously sympathetic from the first episode - their tactics were what painted them in a very bad light. Kiera, on the other hand, was a sympathetic character working for a sympathetic (kid) but ultimately undesirable (preserving corporate authority) cause. The rest of the series was them meeting somewhere in the middle.
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Oct 13, 2015 02:30
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That we're still having the conversation about the good guys/bad guys is proof that the series did something rather unique right. Good show, really. I've always been a huge fan of Liber8, given that the corporatist future is a dystopia of no redemption for anyone but those who serve, like Kiera did with the military and in CPS. She was a privileged minority, so she had no point to argue from, rationally.
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Oct 13, 2015 05:51
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I still really feel like Simon Berry ran out of time. (heh) Case in point: Is the narrative through-line and consensus that The Traveler, who came from a far distant future, screwed something up doing that, AND THEN, created The Freelancers and through them, and also by influencing events directly , made sure that he'd return to his own timeline. I feel like at some point The Traveler realized Kiera Cameron was the key to him returning, and made sure that she'd "succeed". Which is why, at certain points, she's been described as the key,and obviously the focal point.
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Oct 13, 2015 08:54
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Another dangling plot point that I think was abandoned but still kinda present I think is the notion that Time Travel has some sort of intrinsic mental disease that comes with it. Good!Alec, Kiera and Lucas all seemed to have varying mental instabilities through the show with Lucas having outright delusions. The rest of Liber8 probably had it too but were driven enough for the cause that sublimate it. Kellog is the only outlier as being distinctly uncrazy but probably the depression of losing all of his family from the future and then his own grandmother resulted in deflecting the worst of it for a subtle PTSD instead.
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Oct 13, 2015 16:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:Another dangling plot point that I think was abandoned but still kinda present I think is the notion that Time Travel has some sort of intrinsic mental disease that comes with it. Good!Alec, Kiera and Lucas all seemed to have varying mental instabilities through the show with Lucas having outright delusions. Was Jason's mental illness due to time travel or from being institutionalised? Or was he taken by the Freelancers? I can't remember if they ever explained it
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Oct 13, 2015 17:11
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TomWaitsForNoMan posted:Was Jason's mental illness due to time travel or from being institutionalised? Or was he taken by the Freelancers? I can't remember if they ever explained it I forgot Jason, more evidence onto the pile I think.
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Oct 13, 2015 17:23
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Wasn't it theorized in show that the further you traveled the more hazardous it could be since Jason was pretty crazy?
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Oct 13, 2015 19:49
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He was only crazy when the plot didn't need him, just like the rest of them.
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Oct 13, 2015 21:30
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WarLocke posted:It's been forever since I watched that episode, but IIRC it was presented as the only way those people would ever be 'free', what SadTech had done to them was irreversible. Iirc they basically capped off the spine, so you were looking a factory floor of what were basically computer-controlled headless corpses.
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Oct 13, 2015 23:59
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Rhyno posted:Wasn't it theorized in show that the further you traveled the more hazardous it could be since Jason was pretty crazy? You know I was going to say Kiera's partner Elena was thrown back in time further than the rest and she just died of something unrelated to mental disease. Then I looked it up and she had Alzheimer's. Can't say for sure it's to do with time travel or just being old, but it's a solid theory.
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Oct 14, 2015 00:17
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If that'd the case what's going to happen to Kellog, I wonder?
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Oct 14, 2015 00:19
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Pendent posted:If that'd the case what's going to happen to Kellog, I wonder? He's going to become Jesus.
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Oct 14, 2015 00:26
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I imagine Kellog either was immediately killed or somehow became king of the people in the woods.
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Oct 14, 2015 00:31
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Garza was too beautiful for this timeline. gently caress you Keira. RIP Carlos and your sick abs
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Oct 14, 2015 03:04
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I think they definitely implied that time travel hosed with people's brains. Not everyone fell victim to it, but about half the time travellers on the show were varying levels of unhinged -- Elena, Jason, Chen, Keira, Lucas... the second in command commando guy didn't seem that well either. I imagine this was probably something that they wanted to do more with over the course of the show, but didn't because they didn't have time. As it is, it's probably just a shout-out to Twelve Monkeys. (Incidentally, how does that television adaptation compare to this show? I know they're using Back To The Future rules, which annoys me, but I can cope if the show's otherwise interesting. And what are the performances like?)
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Oct 14, 2015 03:45
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Open Source Idiom posted:As it is, it's probably just a shout-out to Twelve Monkeys. Show is good. Go watch it.
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Oct 14, 2015 04:03
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Rhyno posted:He's going to become Jesus. *gasp* the Mormons were right!.
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Oct 14, 2015 04:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:*gasp* the Mormons were right!. Hahaha! I actually didn't think of that.
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Oct 14, 2015 04:23
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My headcanon is that Kellogg became king of the Vancouver natives and brokered a deal with the first European settlers in the area, becoming an instrumental actor in the history of North America and resolving a paradox we never knew existed. That son of a bitch is too good a character to just gently caress off in ancient woods and die. I hope his time ball is in some motherfucker's garage.Raenir Salazar posted:*gasp* the Mormons were right!. This here is a good joke.
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Oct 14, 2015 04:40
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grilldos posted:My headcanon is that Kellogg became king of the Vancouver natives and brokered a deal with the first European settlers in the area, becoming an instrumental actor in the history of North America and resolving a paradox we never knew existed. That son of a bitch is too good a character to just gently caress off in ancient woods and die. I hope his time ball is in some motherfucker's garage. What if Kellog going back to that time was necessary for the Traveler to go home?
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Oct 14, 2015 06:41
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Spacebump posted:What if Kellog going back to that time was necessary for the Traveler to go home? I'm personally not very fond of the idea that Kellog's being sent back in time is an absolute necessity for a happy ending and that his end was a result of his own actions that were both avoidable and not mutually exclusive to Kiera's goals.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:08
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Show is good. Go watch it. Twelve Monkeys suffers from not really being on any streaming services.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:02
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Party Plane Jones posted:Twelve Monkeys suffers from not really being on any streaming services. Might be like how CW does their shows. Season 1 (and subsequent seasons) will go up shortly before the next season airs. At least on netflix. Helix S1 is on netflix anyway. Twelve Monkeys is good though, I like it a lot.
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Oct 14, 2015 17:18
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm personally not very fond of the idea that Kellog's being sent back in time is an absolute necessity for a happy ending and that his end was a result of his own actions that were both avoidable and not mutually exclusive to Kiera's goals. I'm pretty sure Kellog's destined part to play in things was "step into the portal and thus destroying Brad's future."
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Oct 14, 2015 17:31
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Rhyno posted:I'm pretty sure Kellog's destined part to play in things was "step into the portal and thus destroying Brad's future." That's the most direct way, but the same could be accomplished by no longer controlling Piron.
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Oct 14, 2015 17:45
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Tokubetsu posted:Might be like how CW does their shows. Season 1 (and subsequent seasons) will go up shortly before the next season airs. At least on netflix. Helix S1 is on netflix anyway. Would also recommend Twelve Monkeys to anyone needing a new science fiction show.
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Oct 14, 2015 18:59
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Accretionist posted:Iirc they basically capped off the spine, so you were looking a factory floor of what were basically computer-controlled headless corpses. I think you're right, which makes blowing them all up the actual humane thing to do there.
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Oct 14, 2015 22:55
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Spacebump posted:Would also recommend Twelve Monkeys to anyone needing a new science fiction show. If for no other reason than the relationship between the two male friends is more interesting than the male/female attraction part. 
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Oct 14, 2015 23:11
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JossiRossi posted:If for no other reason than the relationship between the two male friends is more interesting than the male/female attraction part. Twelve Monkeys is just a good show, period. Good chemistry all around. Bromance is good, flower killer dude is creepy as gently caress, watch the show. It's an example of a movie adaptation that tried to do its own thing, managed it, then ran with it. It's very tonally different than the movie was, but it holds itself together as its own thing.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:16
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Tokubetsu posted:Might be like how CW does their shows. Season 1 (and subsequent seasons) will go up shortly before the next season airs. In which case it's going onto Netflix way out in April 2016.
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Oct 14, 2015 23:27
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TomWaitsForNoMan posted:Was Jason's mental illness due to time travel or from being institutionalised? Or was he taken by the Freelancers? I can't remember if they ever explained it I seem to recall something about him just being crazy even in the future, back when they were developing the Halo he mentioned something about it. Has Simon Berry said what the original plan was before they got canceled/a short final season? Like everything involving the Traveler felt truncated.
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Oct 17, 2015 05:18
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Spacebump posted:I imagine Kellog either was immediately killed or somehow became king of the people in the woods. In my headcannon they cut right before the natives all bowed down to their white shirted tie God with his magic orange.  Count me in with the people who was surprised Julian wasn't there to meet Kiera, as I'm pretty sure they showed him as being still alive but in jail in the future. I suppose in the new timeline he just died accidentally doing something fun like hang gliding in the pristine forests of Canada since he didn't have a revolution to lead. I wonder what the note said that Jason handed Kiera to give to Old Alec? It didn't seem very long.
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Oct 17, 2015 05:40
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