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Nice job stophillarypac KILLED IN AMBASSADORIAL ACTION IN LYBIA
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Oct 14, 2015 14:14
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gradenko_2000 posted:I didn't get to watch the debate, but holy poo poo Jim Webb killed a guy?! Vietnam vet He can't iterate that enough, apparently.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:14
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Now, now he just said the guy who shot him isn't around anymore. Maybe that guy died peacefully in his sleep a couple months ago.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:16
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greatn posted:But what I got from Bernie's answer of "I was a young man then. I'm not so young anymore" was that he had been a conscientious objector, but with age had grown to believe that sometimes war is actually necessary. I thought it was an "I'm old and bald" joke.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:16
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greatn posted:If mlpmlmp is the same poster I think and was reading in the debate thread, he faults exactly that, to him the legal definition of a conscientious objector is a really serious thing and he's very offended by someone misrepresenting themselves as one. This. It's also got a bad history from the Vietnam era of being a thing educated whites did much more effectively than poor minorities.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:20
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hot take on the debate courtesy of local news
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Oct 14, 2015 14:22
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mlmp08 posted:This. It's also got a bad history from the Vietnam era of being a thing educated whites did much more effectively than poor minorities. That and just something that old dudes have been doing once they no longer needed to fight themselves for much of recorded history. (Although young dudes itching for a fight to gain social status against the advice of established older dudes has also been a historical dynamic; it cuts both ways depending on the social dynamics).
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Oct 14, 2015 14:23
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zoux posted:Nice job stophillarypac That screenshot makes him look like Voldemort
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Oct 14, 2015 14:23
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mlmp08 posted:This. It's also got a bad history from the Vietnam era of being a thing educated whites did much more effectively than poor minorities. Or wealthy minorities, see: Muhammad Ali, a Muslim whose religion forbade war getting sent to prison and told his conscientious objectorship was BS, called Cassius Clay repeatedly, and was only saved by the supreme Court at the last minute because one of the justices changed his mind and convinced the others. But I'm just guessing the young liberal Jew idealist probably actually was a pacifist at the time.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:25
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Ali is such a badass.quote:“Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality. If I thought the war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they wouldn’t have to draft me, I’d join tomorrow. I have nothing to lose by standing up for my beliefs. So I’ll go to jail, so what? We’ve been in jail for 400 years.”
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Oct 14, 2015 14:30
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greatn posted:Or wealthy minorities, see: Muhammad Ali, a Muslim whose religion forbade war getting sent to prison and told his conscientious objectorship was BS, called Cassius Clay repeatedly, and was only saved by the supreme Court at the last minute because one of the justices changed his mind and convinced the others. To be fair, a professional fighter is a tough sell as a pacifist. (Realtalk, he was an athletic fighter, which is very different, and of course there was massive racism involved.)
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Oct 14, 2015 14:30
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greatn posted:Or wealthy minorities, see: Muhammad Ali, a Muslim whose religion forbade war getting sent to prison and told his conscientious objectorship was BS, called Cassius Clay repeatedly, and was only saved by the supreme Court at the last minute because one of the justices changed his mind and convinced the others. Yeah but being a pacifist and conscientious objector are two different things. I can't know but I would hazard a guess that even college Bernie was supportive of going to war with Hitler, if not many of the methods of WW2. Basically claiming conscientious objector status erroneously is the same as the numerous Americans who claimed mental/physical ailments falsely to avoid service. He's no Romney, though, that's a special and particularly evil kind of fygm.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:31
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Just a reminder Ali is a loving serious bad rear end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFMyrWlZ68 Hollismason fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 14:32
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In the spirit of the Magic thread, the game's only certified pacifist creature: Karn is a pacifist, but evidently is pro-drone?
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Oct 14, 2015 14:35
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Ali was super badass. I also don't believe he really fit the definition of a conscientious objector, but he wasn't running for president so meh? Hypothetically a dedicated conscientious objector wouldn't take up arms even in defense of their homeland by a patently evil invading force. Those opposed to a particular war do not qualify as conscientious objectors under UCMJ. Just War Theory invalidates conscientious objector status.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:37
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fade5 posted:In addition to the horror show discussed above, Chafee was an unwitting part of the best part of the debate: after Anderson Cooper brought up Hillary's email thing, Bernie went in defense of Clinton and said "enough with the drat emails", and then Chafee went charging on ahead with the emails anyway, and set himself up for Hillary to put his head on a loving pike with one single word: Awww, Jesse Jackson was there 
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Oct 14, 2015 14:40
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mlmp08 posted:Ali was super badass. I also don't believe he really fit the definition of a conscientious objector, but he wasn't running for president so meh? I seem to recall hearing of someone who claimed that status, but was denied when he admitted he'd use violence in self-defense. Maybe it was in The Good War by Studs Terkel? Incidentally, my maternal grandfather was a conscientious objector, but served by building bridges  My paternal grandfather wasn't, but was an experienced pilot who trained RAF fighters, also almost made me never happen by pulling a Dubya and crashing a plane.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:40
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Conscientious objector doesn't mean " Complete Pacisifist". I don't think you should use the term interchangeably with pacificist. Also it's most with things like the draft. I may not go fight a war in a foreign nation but if a enemy force invaded my country I would defend it. That's perfectly still in line with Conscientious Objector.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:43
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fits my needs posted:I am excited to see what the Sanderistas will do when Bernie loses. Vote Trump in protest, obviously!
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Oct 14, 2015 14:50
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Wasn't just online polls -- the focus groups afterwards also had Bernie as clear winner. Hahah, that's a really funny sentence.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:52
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If Donald Trump wins the Republican primaries I will vote for him.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:53
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Hollismason posted:If Donald Trump wins the Republican primaries I will vote for him. Out of spite?
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Oct 14, 2015 14:56
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Hollismason posted:Conscientious objector doesn't mean " Complete Pacisifist". I don't think you should use the term interchangeably with pacificist. Also it's most with things like the draft. I may not go fight a war in a foreign nation but if a enemy force invaded my country I would defend it. That's perfectly still in line with Conscientious Objector. Not in the USA. Go read the legal definition. It's very specific and limited in scope. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 14, 2015 |
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Oct 14, 2015 14:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Wasn't just online polls -- the focus groups afterwards also had Bernie as clear winner. Pundits said HRC was yer winner.  Really we're going to have to wait to see the polling.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:59
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As near as I can tell, Bernie was too old to have been in the Vietnam draft lotteries anyway. He was born in 41.
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Oct 14, 2015 14:59
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Rygar201 posted:As near as I can tell, Bernie was too old to have been in the Vietnam draft lotteries anyway. He was born in 41. Please don't disrupt the jingoism.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:05
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Rygar201 posted:As near as I can tell, Bernie was too old to have been in the Vietnam draft lotteries anyway. He was born in 41. The draft didn't simply pop into being when they switched methods to the lotteries. It was in effect prior to that. It's not like those fighting in 65 or 67 were an all volunteer force.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:06
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Dammit I guess the days not over but doesn't look like Paul Ryan is announcing he'll take the Speaker role today.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:06
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Well come to think of it the only person who said he was a conscientious objector was Webb. Maybe he was for Korea?
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Oct 14, 2015 15:06
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Rygar201 posted:As near as I can tell, Bernie was too old to have been in the Vietnam draft lotteries anyway. He was born in 41. My old man was born in 38 and drafted in 59, he spent 2 years in nowheresville, Texas. Not something to strenuously avoid, but certainly an inconvenience for anyone wanting to get started on a career or a family or something.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:18
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All the online polls I can find say that Bernie won. Yesssss 
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Oct 14, 2015 15:19
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sullat posted:My old man was born in 38 and drafted in 59, he spent 2 years in nowheresville, Texas. Not something to strenuously avoid, but certainly an inconvenience for anyone wanting to get started on a career or a family or something. It's been a recurring theme that a lot of posters think the draft existed for like two years and that's it during Vietnam. It's really weird.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:20
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i cannot believe that bernie is being slandered for draft dodging an immoral boondoggle of a war that killed tons of americans for no good reason
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Oct 14, 2015 15:23
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I really don't get why everyone said Hillary did so well at the debate. I mean she didn't mess up, but I still don't get a sense from her that she is campaigning on any other platform than "I served my time, make me president drat it." At least that's the sense I get from her. I'll hold my nose and vote for her when she wins, but nothing in that debate made we want to vote for her other than the -D at the end of her name.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:24
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I've heard people pissed at draft dodgers because selfishly they caused someone else to go in their place and not make that final leap that MAYBE sending people there was the real evil.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:25
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Eimi posted:I really don't get why everyone said Hillary did so well at the debate. I mean she didn't mess up, but I still don't get a sense from her that she is campaigning on any other platform than "I served my time, make me president drat it." At least that's the sense I get from her. I'll hold my nose and vote for her when she wins, but nothing in that debate made we want to vote for her other than the -D at the end of her name. her statements during that debate actually moved me from cautious about her to hating her. a vote for hillary in the primary is a vote for 4 more years of the same neoliberal bullshit that has our country in a terrible position right now.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:27
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Condiv posted:her statements during that debate actually moved me from cautious about her to hating her. a vote for hillary in the primary is a vote for 4 more years of the same neoliberal bullshit that has our country in a terrible position right now. Which neoliberal policies are those?
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Oct 14, 2015 15:27
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Radish posted:I've heard people pissed at draft dodgers because selfishly they caused someone else to go in their place and not make that final leap that MAYBE sending people there was the real evil. p much. i view vietnam vets as victims of a cynical and brutal government. i cannot fault people for trying to find a way out of that meatgrinder
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Oct 14, 2015 15:28
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zoux posted:Which neoliberal policies are those? continuing the goddamn patriot act for one, throwing snowden in jail for uncovering the NSA's BS for two
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Oct 14, 2015 15:28
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Condiv posted:continuing the goddamn patriot act for one, throwing snowden in jail for uncovering the NSA's BS for two My god you've found the source of the countries problems! (neither of those have anything to do with neoliberalism)
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Oct 14, 2015 15:29
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