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The best thing we gun owners could do is publish new and heinous ways for spree killers to maximize their efficiency without using firearms. Maybe create a blog or something where we talk about how passe guns have become for domestic terrorism, and [x] is the new hotness. It would take the focus off of guns and put it back on fertilizer or ricin or binary explosives or whatever. Ideally, we could find a way to turn tabletop miniatures into weapons of mass destruction and create a schism in the public safety voting crew.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:46
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SedanChair posted:See, this is how fetishizing the danger of guns above other kinds of danger leads to unsafe forms of thinking. Because you attribute mystical killing power to the gun, you apparently believe that it's easy to stop hanging yourself halfway through.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:46
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IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:I've heard, probably in a stupid movie but it could just as easily have been from a pathologist, that almost everyone that hangs themselves has nail wounds on their neck. Because no matter how dire the situation, the moment your lizard brainstem realizes that your dying you are going to do everything to survive. There are people who hang themselves on their knees or in sitting/leaning positions where they could just stand up or lean back and they would have lived. Most commonly, in prison. Some people really do ride it out all the way until the end.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:48
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Shooting yourself with a gun is a 5 step process. 1. Buy a gun 2. Buy ammo 3. Load the gun 4. Point the gun at yourself 5. Shoot You can reconsider at any point before the last one.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:48
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SedanChair posted:Nah, this is the part where they always pivot to "that's why repeal the amendment and ban all guns." It doesn't matter what the topic of discussion is at the time, citing the law itself causes the brains of reactionary fauxgressives to immediately reset. What is "not progressive" about the desire to implement modern successful policy being stronger than the desire to not alter the ancient edicts of infallible patriarchs
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Oct 15, 2015 04:48
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IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:
If the gun laws resulted in lower suicide rates with other means according to their analysis, that would suggest their analysis is incomplete or faulty. This study seems like cherry picked data analysis to me, although seeing a peer review may change my mind. It's not exactly hard to get bad science published.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:49
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natetimm posted:In Australia, before the gun ban went into effect, shooting and hanging were both just about equally as popular a way to kill yourself. Gun suicides did decrease dramatically after the ban. Don't worry, though, because hangings took their place pretty much equally. As a matter of fact, even though guns were pretty much removed from the equation, the suicide rate continued to increase. The idea that the lethality of guns makes them a better method for killing yourself isn't really proven by science. Also, there's no evidence to show an actual decline in suicides after the ban in Australia, either. Basically, the entire argument you're putting forth is bullshit. That study is only for one particular gender and age group. It also started way less common in Australia. Currently, their gun suicide rate is roughly .6 per 100k compared to the overall suicide rate of about 10-11 per 100k. In America, the gun suicide rate is about 6.7 per 100k, compared to an overall rate of about 13 per 100k. The study I found which is referenced as a pretty good one that studied rates overall (http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf) had this to say: quote:Because there are so many more non-firearm suicides (and Basically, there's not a big enough sample size to be able to tell if total substitution occurred because they're lucky enough to not have so many gun suicides.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:49
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JT Jag posted:Hanging is a four-step process. Tie a noose, get on a stool, put on the noose, and kick the chair away. You can reconsider at any point before the last one. Pick up the gun. Load the gun. Put the gun against your eye or under your chin (if you want to succeed and not be a vegetable). Pull the trigger. You can reconsider at any point before the last one. Edit: I got the poo poo beaten out of me on that one. This thread moves fast.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:49
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Rahu posted:Agree completely with this, the bill of rights contains the right to keep and bear arms which is a good idea. See, you're making the mistake I explained in the second sentence. Because the 2nd amendment is placed with a bunch of good ideas and packaged into something with a sweet name like "the bill of rights", you have mistakenly interpreted this to mean that the 2nd amendment is a good idea itself. natetimm posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use Protect them from what though? Would the person be killed in all those scenarios? Would they need that protection if guns weren't so prevalent in the first place?
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Oct 15, 2015 04:49
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stealie72 posted:I too have lost family members to suicide. And people sure as poo poo fake suicide attempts. They're cries for attention and they need to be addressed, but lots of people make motions toward suicide with no intent of completion. that doesn't make them fake attempts you fuckin trucknuts
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Oct 15, 2015 04:49
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Snowman Crossing posted:Ideally, we could find a way to turn tabletop miniatures into weapons of mass destruction and create a schism in the public safety voting crew.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:49
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natetimm posted:FYI, they're back up to a 10-year peak. And not because of guns! How is that a rebuttal precisely?
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Oct 15, 2015 04:50
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natetimm posted:It's almost like they broke up the type of gun suicides to make them seem more scary. actually i think they broke up the type of suicide because type of suicide is an important factor, given different success rates, and that gun suicides are notably prolific i agree with you though that there is nothing to fear in the high number of firearm suicides in america. quite the opposite, actually boner confessor fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 04:50
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stealie72 posted:Pick up the gun. Load the gun. Put the gun against your eye or under your chin (if you want to succeed and not be a vegetable). Pull the trigger. You can reconsider at any point before the last one.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:51
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Literally The Worst posted:that doesn't make them fake attempts you fuckin trucknuts OK, so what would you call an attempt that has no hope or intention of success? Ersatz suicide? Suicide-adjacent? What's the correct term these days? I'd hate to offend. JT Jag posted:See, when you lay it out like that, it sounds the same. But the process to hanging yourself takes several minutes if you don't have a noose tied already. With a gun, especially if the gun is already loaded, it's a matter of seconds. stealie72 fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 04:51
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JT Jag posted:Yes, a conversation on gun rights and gun control in the US is pointless if the position of half the people in the thread is "idgaf what you're saying, it's in the constitution" Also when the position of the other half is 'gently caress the law, my feelings are more important'.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:52
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stealie72 posted:OK, so what would you call an attempt that has no hope or intention of success? Ersatz suicide? Suicide-adjacent? What's the correct term these days? I'd hate to offend.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:52
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Bryter posted:See, you're making the mistake I explained in the second sentence. Because the 2nd amendment is placed with a bunch of good ideas and packaged into something with a sweet name like "the bill of rights", you have mistakenly interpreted this to mean that the 2nd amendment is a good idea itself. Most people protecting themselves aren't doing it from gun-toting criminals. If someone already has a gun pointed at you, trying to reach for yours is a good way to be dead. The US is a violent country independent of guns. Burglaries, home invasions, assaults, rapes, etc. Handguns allow people like women, the disabled, fat useless nerds, and the elderly to protect themselves from those that would victimize them. It's the democratization of force. You at least know you have a chance, instead of having to resign yourself to whatever is going to happen and hope they don't strangle you with your own lamp cord.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:53
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Liquid Communism posted:Also when the position of the other half is 'gently caress the law, my feelings are more important'. it's pretty important to our civil liberties to not worry unduly about people's emotional states when considering firearm suicide
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Oct 15, 2015 04:53
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natetimm posted:Most people protecting themselves aren't doing it from gun-toting criminals. If someone already has a gun pointed at you, trying to reach for yours is a good way to be dead. The US is a violent country independent of guns. Burglaries, home invasions, assaults, rapes, etc. Handguns allow people like women, the disabled, fat useless nerds, and the elderly to protect themselves from those that would victimize them. It's the democratization of force. You at least know you have a chance, instead of having to resign yourself to whatever is going to happen and hope they don't strangle you with your own lamp cord. i agree with you here, firearms are one of america's most popular ways to avoid consigning themselves to fate and taking their destiny in their own hands
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Oct 15, 2015 04:54
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Tezzor posted:What is "not progressive" about the desire to implement modern successful policy being stronger than the desire to not alter the ancient edicts of infallible patriarchs Oh nothing, it's entirely possible to formulate humane and progressive anti-gun views. But few on the nominal American "left" manage to do so, which is unsurprising since gun control was created first as racism, then as a wedge issue to help NPR listeners feel superior to people who have to drive more than twenty minutes to buy groceries.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:54
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Popular Thug Drink posted:it's pretty important to our civil liberties to not worry unduly about people's emotional states when considering firearm suicide Popular Thug Drink posted:i agree with you here, firearms are one of america's most popular ways to avoid consigning themselves to fate and taking their destiny in their own hands See, you're learning. This thread has some purpose.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:55
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Popular Thug Drink posted:it's pretty important to our civil liberties to not worry unduly about people's emotional states when considering firearm suicide
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Oct 15, 2015 04:55
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JT Jag posted:btw, just wanna say god bless you, you are doing a service in this thread i'm just one man, the real heros are out there, their ranks swelling by tens of thousands year on year
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Oct 15, 2015 04:56
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natetimm posted:Most people protecting themselves aren't doing it from gun-toting criminals. If someone already has a gun pointed at you, trying to reach for yours is a good way to be dead. The US is a violent country independent of guns. Burglaries, home invasions, assaults, rapes, etc. Handguns allow people like women, the disabled, fat useless nerds, and the elderly to protect themselves from those that would victimize them. It's the democratization of force. You at least know you have a chance, instead of having to resign yourself to whatever is going to happen and hope they don't strangle you with your own lamp cord. More people use guns to commit crimes than they do to protect themselves from crimes. Claims to the contrary are totally unsubstantiated gun lobby propaganda.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:57
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Tezzor posted:More people use guns to commit crimes than they do to protect themselves from crimes. Claims to the contrary are totally unsubstantiated gun lobby propaganda. Citation needed.
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Oct 15, 2015 04:57
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stealie72 posted:OK, so what would you call an attempt that has no hope or intention of success? Ersatz suicide? Suicide-adjacent? What's the correct term these days? I'd hate to offend. It also backfires sometimes. I had a friend in the medical field explain that a lot of dumb people overdose on Tylenol or generic acetaminophen thinking that it will make them sick and be seen as a cry for help, but isn't like a "real" drug that can kill them. But it actually gets toxic as gently caress in large doses and they end up either dead or on the liver transplant waiting list. *edit* mostly women. He said men have a substantially higher success rate with suicide... Possibly because more of them own guns? Snowman Crossing fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 04:58
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bidikyoopi posted:If the gun laws resulted in lower suicide rates with other means according to their analysis, that would suggest their analysis is incomplete or faulty. No... they say that the implementation of the gun storage laws correlated with lower non-fire arm suicide as-well in the 18-20 year old age range group and that this means that they question the reliability of this outcome in this age group. This was expressly not found in the onder discussion 14-17 year old group so your quote has no bearing on the 14-17 year olds. Moreover, the JAMA is a peer reviewd journal. Its the third highest ranked journal for medicine overall with an Impact factor of 35. If this is not enough peer review for you than you have a unworkable definition of peer-review and should stay away from comparable gossip rags such as Nature, Science etc. IAMNOTADOCTOR fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 04:58
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Tezzor posted:More people use guns to commit crimes than they do to protect themselves from crimes. Claims to the contrary are totally unsubstantiated gun lobby propaganda. Speaking of unsubstantiated claims...
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Oct 15, 2015 04:58
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Snowman Crossing posted:It also backfires sometimes. I had a friend in the medical field explain that a lot of dumb people overdose on Tylenol or generic acetaminophen thinking that it will make them sick and be seen as a cry for help, but isn't like a "real" drug that can kill them. But it actually gets toxic as gently caress in large doses and they end up either dead or on the liver transplant waiting list. You know, it's really too bad we don't have some kind of system that would help people who are depressed or suicidal, instead of focusing so heavily on taking the means of suicide away.
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Oct 15, 2015 05:00
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Gun Control: Racist? You'd be surprised what some posters think!
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Oct 15, 2015 05:00
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stealie72 posted:You know, it's really too bad we don't have some kind of system that would help people who are depressed or suicidal, instead of focusing so heavily on taking the means of suicide away. unfortunately, the democrats are so preoccupied with hypocritical gun grabbing that they're too busy to do useful things such as expanding access to healthcare
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Oct 15, 2015 05:01
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natetimm posted:Most people protecting themselves aren't doing it from gun-toting criminals. If someone already has a gun pointed at you, trying to reach for yours is a good way to be dead. The US is a violent country independent of guns. Burglaries, home invasions, assaults, rapes, etc. Protecting your property isn't the same as protecting yourself, though, and most rapes aren't committed in circumstances where a gun would help. And in all these situations, there's the risk of the gun ending up in the offender's hands. I don't think this is a clear cut as you're making it out to be.
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Oct 15, 2015 05:01
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stealie72 posted:OK, so what would you call an attempt that has no hope or intention of success? Ersatz suicide? Suicide-adjacent? What's the correct term these days? I'd hate to offend. a suicide attempt that wasn't successful
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Oct 15, 2015 05:02
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SedanChair posted:Oh nothing, it's entirely possible to formulate humane and progressive anti-gun views. But few on the nominal American "left" manage to do so, which is unsurprising since gun control was created first as racism, then as a wedge issue to help NPR listeners feel superior to people who have to drive more than twenty minutes to buy groceries. It's funny to read gun fanboys, who as a reminder again are a part of the most systemically barkingly racist hobby subculture short of like the KKK or posting on white nationalist internet forums, try to discredit their opposition as racist because some old gun control laws were racist, as though that were in any way unique or meaningful. What American institution or social idea was not initially created or used by racists to enforce racial oppression, especially when deliberately interpreted as doing so by a cretin trying to smash things into a narrative?
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Oct 15, 2015 05:09
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natetimm posted:Citation needed. Can i? This is a copy past because I havent been able to tempt you into a deeper discussion. 1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense We use epidemiological theory to explain why the “false positive” problem for rare events can lead to large overestimates of the incidence of rare diseases or rare phenomena such as self-defense gun use. We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence. We find that the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid. Hemenway, David. Survey research and self-defense gun use: An explanation of extreme overestimates. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology. 1997; 87:1430-1445. Hemenway, David. The myth of millions of annual self-defense gun uses: A case study of survey overestimates of rare events. Chance (American Statistical Association). 1997; 10:6-10. Cook, Philip J; Ludwig, Jens; Hemenway, David. The gun debate’s new mythical number: How many defensive uses per year? Journal of Policy Analysis and Management. 1997; 16:463-469. 4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal We analyzed data from two national random-digit-dial surveys conducted under the auspices of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Criminal court judges who read the self-reported accounts of the purported self-defense gun use rated a majority as being illegal, even assuming that the respondent had a permit to own and to carry a gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly from his own perspective. Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah. Gun use in the United States: Results from two national surveys. Injury Prevention. 2000; 6:263-267. 5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense. Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Center, we examined the extent and nature of offensive gun use. We found that firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense. All reported cases of criminal gun use, as well as many of the so-called self-defense gun uses, appear to be socially undesirable. Hemenway, David; Azrael, Deborah. The relative frequency of offensive and defensive gun use: Results of a national survey. Violence and Victims. 2000; 15:257-272. 6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime. Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, we investigated how and when guns are used in the home. We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns. Publication: Azrael, Deborah R; Hemenway, David. In the safety of your own home: Results from a national survey of gun use at home. Social Science and Medicine. 2000; 50:285-91. 7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense. We analyzed data from a telephone survey of 5,800 California adolescents aged 12-17, which asked questions about gun threats against, and self-defense gun use by these young people. We found that these young people were far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use a gun in self-defense, and most of the reported self-defense gun uses were hostile interactions between armed adolescents. Males, smokers, binge drinkers, those who threatened others and whose parents were less likely to know their whereabouts were more likely both to be threatened with a gun and to use a gun in self-defense. Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Gun threats against and self-defense gun use by California adolescents. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine. 2004; 158:395-400. 8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime Using data from a survey of detainees in a Washington D.C. jail, we worked with a prison physician to investigate the circumstances of gunshot wounds to these criminals. We found that one in four of these detainees had been wounded, in events that appear unrelated to their incarceration. Most were shot when they were victims of robberies, assaults and crossfires. Virtually none report being wounded by a “law-abiding citizen.” May, John P; Hemenway, David. Oen, Roger; Pitts, Khalid R. When criminals are shot: A survey of Washington DC jail detainees. Medscape General Medicine. 2000; June 28. https://www.medscape.com 9 The risks of a gun in the home typically far outweigh the benefits This article summarizes the scientific literature on the health risks and benefits of having a gun in the home for the gun owner and his/her family and concludes that for most contemporary Americans, the health risk of a gun in the home is greater than the benefit Hemenway, David. Risks and benefits of a gun in the home. American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine 2011; 5:502-511.
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Oct 15, 2015 05:10
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stealie72 posted:You know, it's really too bad we don't have some kind of system that would help people who are depressed or suicidal, instead of focusing so heavily on taking the means of suicide away. here's the thing that i haven't seen anybody actually adress yet, though: the people who are against gun control are the people preventing people from having better access to healthcare, including mental health resources while the people pushing for gun control, who you refuse to vote for, are also the people pushing for health care reform so you don't really get to do this "well what if we had THIS" bullshit, when you're (and i use the general you, referring to single-issue gun control voters as a whole) voting for the people who are actively working to stop that system from existing
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Oct 15, 2015 05:11
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natetimm posted:Citation needed. http://www.livescience.com/51446-guns-do-not-deter-crime.html http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt In 1992 offenders armed with handguns committed a record 931,000 violent crimes. Handgun crimes accounted for about 13% of all violent crimes. As measured by the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), the rate of nonfatal handgun victimizations in 1992--4.5 crimes per 1,000 people age 12 or older--supplanted the record of 4.0 per 1,000 in 1982. On average in 1987-92 about 83,000 crime victims per year used a firearm to defend themselves or their property. Three-fourths of the victims who used a firearm for defense did so during a violent crime; a fourth, during a theft, household burglary, or motor vehicle theft. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/19/guns-in-america-for-every-criminal-killed-in-self-defense-34-innocent-people-die/
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Oct 15, 2015 05:13
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Popular Thug Drink posted:unfortunately, the democrats are so preoccupied with hypocritical gun grabbing that they're too busy to do useful things such as expanding access to healthcare
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Oct 15, 2015 05:14
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Literally The Worst posted:here's the thing that i haven't seen anybody actually adress yet, though:
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Oct 15, 2015 05:16
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