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I forgot the soldiers game tbh
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Oct 16, 2015 20:20
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Lumpen posted:A third goal, which helps with the second, is to demonstrate that you are Town in a way that others can recognize, so they can feel that considering your cases is worth thier time and feel assured that they won't get burned trusting you. The best way to give others confidence you're Town is to make clear honest reads throughout the game, as your reads change lay out a clear, brief sign of your train of thought that caused the change. Then when you have a read that you want to drive the lynch to, the most persuasive way to get people to pay attention and follow you is to make a clear, brief, 3-bullet-point case on your target, then answer every question or objection that is raised by other players you think are Town, while ignoring people you think are Scum so they can't sidetrack. Demonstrating to other players that you're town and trustworthy is a scum objective, not a town one.
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Oct 16, 2015 20:31
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The Ninth Layer posted:Demonstrating to other players that you're town and trustworthy is a scum objective, not a town one. Scum objective is to sow chaos, spread false and misleading info, demoralize opponents, avoid taking stands, get away with lurking, waste discussion time on irrelevant details, increase the noise-to-signal-ratio, murder Townies who are active and productive.
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Oct 16, 2015 20:48
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Lumpen posted:Yes, that is a Scum objective as well, which means Town have to do it more convincingly, and Scum need to prevent Town from doing it. And yet, in both of the last two games I've run, the scum (and the SK in the one) all decided that they'd use all their night kills on the least productive posters. I'm not sure what to think about that. Granted, the one scumteam was making a conscious decision to control the game by controlling the dialogue, and the other scumteam was the shitposting superstar crew of uranus, jakep and imgay, which may have been a mistake on my part to allow that to happen. I dunno. I don't have a good head for "proper" Mafia play.
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Oct 16, 2015 20:58
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Lumpen posted:Yes, that is a Scum objective as well, which means Town have to do it more convincingly, and Scum need to prevent Town from doing it. It's a scum objective that town shouldn't be focusing on. IMO being overly concerned about other players' perceptions of you is a BIG scumtell because the Mafia is the faction that can't win if they die. As a townie you should expect to be killed at some point. It's far more important to catch scum as a townie than it is to have people think you're town.
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Oct 16, 2015 21:02
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Being townie is definitely a town objective as well, since if you aren't it gives scum an easier time to make bad cases off of you and you are more likely to be mislynched. In the vast majority of cases, you are at least partially responsible for when you get lynched, and not letting yourself get into that position is part of your job as town.
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Oct 16, 2015 21:09
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Asiina posted:Being townie is definitely a town objective as well, since if you aren't it gives scum an easier time to make bad cases off of you and you are more likely to be mislynched. In the vast majority of cases, you are at least partially responsible for when you get lynched, and not letting yourself get into that position is part of your job as town. There's nothing townier than pursuing people you think are scum and persuading others to do the same. If you're doing anything else to "seem town" then you're doing it wrong. Good town play looks townie. Stressing about other people thinking you're town does not. I've seen more instances than I can count of a townie that gets cased, spends 90% of their posts defending themselves, and gets lynched. Guess what, this is Mafia and people are going to think you're scummy for arbitrary reasons no matter what you do or how well you play, in fact sometimes they'll think you're scum precisely because you're having a good game and hey maybe you should have been killed by now. You shouldn't take it for granted that people will think you're town and you certainly shouldn't go out of your way to make sure that they do. The Ninth Layer fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 21:12
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Trying to prove you're town feels right but is probably not the best use of time unless somebody is coming at you with a shoddy case then you're more trying to disprove their case rather than prove you're town. This is obviously just my opinion. I think putting effort into dismantling cases is a very valid way to engage yourself and I always find it helps me figure out the motivations of the caser.
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Oct 16, 2015 21:34
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I had three tests today and I think I did pretty well on all of them, and now I am eating leftover pizza, watching roomiedude play metal gear solid, and thinking about cracking the bottle of wine I bought last weekend and have been too busy/tired to drink until now.
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Oct 16, 2015 21:45
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I think you need to be totally oblivious though to not know how your posts will be read by other players; if you are a townie and you know you've made posts that aren't good, pretending like you didn't make them and shouldn't address them doesn't help anyone. likewise defending yourself should never be a bad thing, that's one of those lovely Thoughts people have about mafia. it's up there with "they aren't posting *they post* they're only posting when called out!"
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Oct 16, 2015 21:54
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Defending yourself is tedious
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Oct 16, 2015 21:57
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Guys i'm at a lesbian night and it's really weird and forced send help
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Oct 16, 2015 22:02
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Rarity posted:Guys i'm at a lesbian night and it's really weird and forced send help Have they locked the doors? You could just leave.
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Oct 16, 2015 22:03
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Nah it'll get better
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Oct 16, 2015 22:06
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EccoRaven posted:I think you need to be totally oblivious though to not know how your posts will be read by other players; if you are a townie and you know you've made posts that aren't good, pretending like you didn't make them and shouldn't address them doesn't help anyone. Defending yourself is a bad thing if you're doing nothing else. The one post you make announcing your suspicions right before the town hammers you isn't going to do anything to help the town out.
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Oct 16, 2015 22:10
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I think TNL misread my advice about HOW to demonstrate that you are Town. It's NEVER about defending yourself. The best defense is posting well and hunting Scum, and thats basically what TNL and I both said. Part of my point was also the list of effective things Scum can do, and that Town should NOT do them, and scrupulously avoid doong them, even if they are named TMM and think they're special. Town has a duty to be Townie. To hunt Scum, help reveal useful true evidence, focus on lynching Scum. Which is why we Lynch All Liars and Lynch All Lurkers.
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Oct 16, 2015 22:15
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If you don't pull off one ridiculous town gambit a game you're not doing it right
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Oct 16, 2015 22:43
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Rarity posted:If you don't pull off one ridiculous town gambit a game you're not doing it right Agreed 100%.
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Oct 16, 2015 22:46
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The Ninth Layer posted:Defending yourself is a bad thing if you're doing nothing else. nah it's not like that. it is Not Bad to defend yourself, it is Bad to not make cases and scumhunt. if you defend yourself that's independent to not scumhunting. Lots of stupid thing happen when you're the target of suspicion, too. You can't comfortably go after the people making cases against you (even if the cases are actually bad) because it's easy to be labeled as "OMGUS"ing by the lazy or uninitiated (re: most people), but on a purely political level if you make a case against someone not attacking you you risk turning them against you, too. Likewise because attention is placed on you, you have to actually do better than how you or others would do without the attention because people are reading your posts more closely and will more easily discover your cases' weaknesses. There's some neat psychological stuff, too, about having to "prove" your innocence with a Great Case as opposed to a mediocre one, and how the spotlight being on you causes you to do worse than you would without it, which in turn "confirms" people's suspicions. And it also has to be a case that is Sincere, because if you have too much bravado then you're obviously faking it (but if you have too much doubt it's a Bad Case!). And even if you produce a good case that doesn't get labeled as OMGUS and people believe you're sincere about it, you might - on occasion - get the "why didn't they make that case earlier?! they're just squirming in the wind." And then there's the reality about time - it's tedious to defend yourself and then have to make a case on someone that's better than average and not someone strongly against you and also one you can reasonably Believe In enough to sound sincere in supporting it and one that people think reflects your Town alignment rather than just a desperate ploy for your own salvation. But not defending yourself can let the bad ideas fester and grow, as players continue to hold those incorrect thoughts it colors how they read the game and interpret your posts, and sure maybe you think you're fine but then BAM day 2 starts and suddenly everyone thinks you're scum for no good reason and they don't care what cases you make because they're convinced you're lying scum, and even if you flip town they're never going to reread your posts for your suspicions (because once you die literally nobody cares what you said anymore, they erase you from their memory).
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Oct 16, 2015 22:59
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EccoRaven posted:nah it's not like that. it is Not Bad to defend yourself, it is Bad to not make cases and scumhunt. if you defend yourself that's independent to not scumhunting. Your first big paragraph here is exactly why it's a bad idea to worry overmuch about what other people think about your alignment. Every problem you cite can be solved by simply not caring if you get lynched or not. The idea of not casing someone who isn't voting you just because they might vote you is such a backwards way of looking at the game. If someone is scum why should you care if casing them turns them against you? If your case has salient points then those points have entered the thread's consciousness whether or not you're around to push them the next day. If your time is so limited that you can only pick one of: defend yourself or case, then it's because you're taking too much time defending yourself. Your job is not to convince the person casing you that you're not scum (although it certainly helps) but to convince everyone else. The best way to do that is to play like a townie and go hunt scum. Nobody is going to go back to read your posts but they'll still remember who you cased and what you said about them. Better leaving that in the thread than a bunch of defensive posts that end in a town flip anyway.
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Oct 16, 2015 23:15
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You can also establish yourself as a zany person prone to erratic action and then never get cased until the very end game.
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Oct 16, 2015 23:20
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nah, seriously when a player dies nine times out of ten it's like they never existed for most people (it's why scum can nightkill anyone and nobody ever asks why the scum killed them, they are dead and gone and erased from history). so it doesn't matter what cases you made, your best chance of having any influence on the game after your death is hoping that your case "entered the thread's consciousness," which is kind of insane. part of my point is you can't just "play like a townie" once people start suspecting you; it inherently colors how people view you, and once you're dead you're dead. it's just a lot of bullcrap, and the only real "solution" to it (short of a big shift in the mafia community towards being more aware of our biases and actively trying to correct for them) is never to receive suspicion in the first place, which unfortunately means either posting totally on top of your game or lurking/shitposting.
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Oct 16, 2015 23:25
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see this is why mafia is bad. people STILL don't know how to play it!
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Oct 16, 2015 23:48
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Adus posted:see this is why mafia is bad. people STILL don't know how to play it! Eh, I think the real thing is that since it is a social game a lot of it comes down to a variety of factors, and most players end up being stronger or weaker on various factors which tends toward differing playstyles that aren't always compatible.
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Oct 16, 2015 23:55
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EccoRaven posted:nah, seriously when a player dies nine times out of ten it's like they never existed for most people (it's why scum can nightkill anyone and nobody ever asks why the scum killed them, they are dead and gone and erased from history). so it doesn't matter what cases you made, your best chance of having any influence on the game after your death is hoping that your case "entered the thread's consciousness," which is kind of insane. part of my point is you can't just "play like a townie" once people start suspecting you; it inherently colors how people view you, and once you're dead you're dead. I think this is a really pessimistic way of looking at the game, if you hold this view then why even case at all? Dead players get looked at all the time for who they are suspicious of, it doesn't always mean their cases get pushed after the game but it's still something that a lot of townies will look at and keep in mind. If I make a case on someone and get voted out, it's not like my opinion disappeared, someone will remember what I said even if they don't remember it was me who said it. Depending on how I was voted out, or who the other candidates were, my case could gain traction the following day. It's better than doing nothing. I arouse suspicion all the time but I rarely dignify it because it's almost always not worth engaging. Either people think I'm suspicious in a game or they don't. It's almost never worth spending more than 2 or 3 posts arguing about why someone finds me scummy, and if I'm spending that much time doing it then I'm almost always building to case the person that voted me anyway. Defending myself all day isn't going to catch scum. BTW, not engaging with someone's case against you is one of the most effective ways to defuse it, because they then can't directly engage with what you're posting without looking like they're trying to twist everything you're saying into being scum. If all you do is defend yourself, they can case you forever and eventually their points will stick just through sheer momentum. If I'm getting voted out no matter what I say, then absolutely I'm going to push my suspicions on my way out because it helps advance my win condition (try to get scum lynched) whereas pointlessly defending myself doesn't.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:01
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The Ninth Layer posted:I think this is a really pessimistic way of looking at the game, if you hold this view then why even case at all? Dead players get looked at all the time for who they are suspicious of, it doesn't always mean their cases get pushed after the game but it's still something that a lot of townies will look at and keep in mind. If I make a case on someone and get voted out, it's not like my opinion disappeared, someone will remember what I said even if they don't remember it was me who said it. Depending on how I was voted out, or who the other candidates were, my case could gain traction the following day. It's better than doing nothing. This is true. I am actually pretty sure that literally every game I've played with Merk within the last 2 years has had him claiming I was scum at some point or another.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:08
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Dear mafia thread, I have two inflamed taste buds near the tip of my tongue and I can't stop myself from running my teeth over them constantly to savor the pain. Please advise.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:22
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The Ninth Layer posted:I think this is a really pessimistic way of looking at the game, if you hold this view then why even case at all? I don't mean to imply it's bad to make cases, I'm saying it's not as simple as just "make cases that's all you gotta do!". If anything that kind of view is really naive since it ignores how people actually think about the game and process information. I also don't think it's at all true that people spend any amount of time reviewing what a dead person said. I mean it, one of the most effective scum strategies is just nightkilling people who suspicion you, because nobody - literally nobody - goes back and says "oh gosh, Keane was really suspicious of Ecco, that case probably has merit." Once you die the only time anyone looks at what you said is if you flipped cop. You really do just have to hope your case was absorbed by osmosis, but that just doesn't happen very often at all. Ultimately what I'm trying to say is, it's okay to defend yourself. People shouldn't think someone is scummy for defending themselves in lieu of scumhunting. It's just one of those stupid things people do as a shortcut to actual scumhunting. You as a player should also not want to get executed, since (regardless of your alignment) it doesn't advance your win condition to get voted out. It's not scummy to not want to be the execution and doing what you can to avoid it. TMMadman posted:Dear mafia thread, if your tongue causes you to sin, cut out your tongue, for it is better to be in the Kingdom of Heaven without a tongue than to burn in the fire.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:25
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TMMadman posted:Dear mafia thread, Hope your partner is GGG and bring it up in a frank and open discussion.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:28
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TMMadman posted:Dear mafia thread, Swish with warm salt water every few hours and it should resolve itself within a day.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:28
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Ecco, I spend time looking at who the NK/lynch victims were suspicious of in order to help me find scum. But I'm probably an outlier because I'm a weird guy.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:32
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EccoRaven posted:Ultimately what I'm trying to say is, it's okay to defend yourself. People shouldn't think someone is scummy for defending themselves in lieu of scumhunting. It's just one of those stupid things people do as a shortcut to actual scumhunting. It is scummy to defend yourself in lieu of scumhunting. That's why I'm saying town players shouldn't do it. My entire point from the beginning. If you can't do both for whatever reason, you should be scumhunting. If defending yourself is preventing you from scumhunting, stop defending yourself. Town can win if they get killed. They can't win if they get killed but nobody figured out who the scum were.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:33
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The Ninth Layer posted:It is scummy to defend yourself in lieu of scumhunting. That's why I'm saying town players shouldn't do it. My entire point from the beginning. If you can't do both for whatever reason, you should be scumhunting. If defending yourself is preventing you from scumhunting, stop defending yourself. It's all a matter of interpretation. Going on the attack when attacked could just as easily be labelled as misdirection. All we have in mafia are mod supplied knowledge and our instincts. Nothing is scummy unless we say it is.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:38
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The Ninth Layer posted:It is scummy to defend yourself in lieu of scumhunting. That's why I'm saying town players shouldn't do it. My entire point from the beginning. If you can't do both for whatever reason, you should be scumhunting. If defending yourself is preventing you from scumhunting, stop defending yourself. It's Bad not to scumhunt. It's not Scummy. What makes it Scummy is the way player goes about it. It's legitimate to defend yourself and it's problematic to defend yourself in lieu of scumhunting but it's not Scummy because it's not something scum are more likely to do than town. Any alignment (save survivors) can still win if they get killed but players should never be okay with it. There's also a paradoxical idea where if someone acts nonchalantly around their death it makes them more townie, but if they care about not dying it makes them scum. Lots of dumb things about the game. Authorman posted:It's all a matter of interpretation. Going on the attack when attacked could just as easily be labelled as misdirection. hey authorman how are you doing?? I hope you're doing well. Do you still hang out in IRC? Does anyone? Should I pop in?
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Oct 17, 2015 00:39
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Well I always look at fundamentals. Scum by necessity need to avoid lynches, they can't win if they don't. If that's your priority as a townie, you have scummy priorities.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:41
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EccoRaven posted:hey authorman how are you doing?? I hope you're doing well. Do you still hang out in IRC? Does anyone? Should I pop in? I abandoned irc after six months of being the only person to talk. I'm on facebook though if you are okay with internet people being on your facebook.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:42
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EccoRaven posted:It's Bad not to scumhunt. It's not Scummy. What makes it Scummy is the way player goes about it. It's legitimate to defend yourself and it's problematic to defend yourself in lieu of scumhunting but it's not Scummy because it's not something scum are more likely to do than town. It's scummy not to scumhunt, because scum don't have to and town do. That's a fundamental part of the game. If nobody says anything or votes, the scum win by default because the days end in no lynches and then the scum kills people until they hold majority.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:42
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The Ninth Layer posted:Well I always look at fundamentals. Scum by necessity need to avoid lynches, they can't win if they don't. If that's your priority as a townie, you have scummy priorities. Town need to avoid being executed too, though. If the town only executes town they're going to lose the game. If you are town and it looks like you're going to be executed, you know the town is making a mistake and not voting out scum. You shouldn't be okay with that since that kind of complacency loses games for town the same way it'd lose a game for you as scum. Authorman posted:I abandoned irc after six months of being the only person to talk. I'm on facebook though if you are okay with internet people being on your facebook. I amn't. The Ninth Layer posted:It's scummy not to scumhunt, because scum don't have to and town do. That's a fundamental part of the game. If nobody says anything or votes, the scum win by default because the days end in no lynches and then the scum kills people until they hold majority. it's Bad not to scumhunt but until we get to a world where townies actually scumhunt regularly, a lack of scumhunting alone isn't inherently scummy.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:44
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EccoRaven posted:Town need to avoid being executed too, though. If the town only executes town they're going to lose the game. If you are town and it looks like you're going to be executed, you know the town is making a mistake and not voting out scum. You shouldn't be okay with that since that kind of complacency loses games for town the same way it'd lose a game for you as scum. Avoiding lynches isn't a built-in part of the town win condition. Lynching scum is. That's an important difference. If I know I'm town being executed, but I didn't help the town find scum in any capacity, then it doesn't matter if I got lynched or another townie got lynched, either way we didn't hit scum.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:45
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The Ninth Layer posted:Avoiding lynches isn't a built-in part of the town win condition. Lynching scum is. That's an important difference. It's not just about playing as a baseline, it's about playing well.
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Oct 17, 2015 00:51
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