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Absurd Alhazred posted:You know the IDF has a good case when they've put Peter Lerner on it! I kind of miss the days when Mark Regev was everywhere.
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Oct 17, 2015 21:25
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'd say the first one is misleading because at that point there wasn't a Jewish/Arab state plan at all, so what they're doing is taking the municipal boundaries of existing Jewish communities and assuming that everything else should have belonged to the Palestinian Arabs as incorporated as a Palestine. If they wanted to go with municipal boundaries of communities they would have had to have a lot of green blotches, as well as light-green ones to take mixed cities and towns into account, with the rest being another, neutral color. Absurd Alhazred posted:No, I'm saying that the first map has nothing to do with the other maps. It's comparing apples and oranges. They're counting the Jews by demographics but the Arabs by everything else. For no good reason, as both Jews and Arabs were involved in governance through the Mandate. Another way would be to paint the whole thing in red or something to express that it was all under British control. As far as I can tell, the map isn't showing demographics, it's showing land ownership - after all, Mandatory Palestine was still fairly agricultural. It's often overlooked that Zionist organizations like the Jewish National Fund and the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association were, with heavy backing from foreign donors, buying up land as fast as government restrictions on land transfers would let them. Between that and private purchases, it's estimated that by 1947 a bit under 2,000 square kilometers of Mandatory Palestine were under Jewish ownership (out of 26,000 square km total, about 8,000 square km of which was considered arable land at the time). In other words, around 7% of Palestine's total land was already under Jewish ownership at the time, and because much of it was coordinated purchasing by large nonprofit organizations, it tended to be more cohesive and organized than one might expect. Here's a map produced by the Jewish Agency in 1944, showing what land was Jewish-owned in 1944. 
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Oct 17, 2015 22:07
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Main Paineframe posted:As far as I can tell, the map isn't showing demographics, it's showing land ownership - after all, Mandatory Palestine was still fairly agricultural. It's often overlooked that Zionist organizations like the Jewish National Fund and the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association were, with heavy backing from foreign donors, buying up land as fast as government restrictions on land transfers would let them. Between that and private purchases, it's estimated that by 1947 a bit under 2,000 square kilometers of Mandatory Palestine were under Jewish ownership (out of 26,000 square km total, about 8,000 square km of which was considered arable land at the time). In other words, around 7% of Palestine's total land was already under Jewish ownership at the time, and because much of it was coordinated purchasing by large nonprofit organizations, it tended to be more cohesive and organized than one might expect. Then it's still apples to oranges because you would expect Arab land ownership inside the Jewish-controlled portions to appear in the last three pictures as well. Hell, then there's no point in having a Partition Plan map because what changed ownership between 1946 and, say, 1950 was predominantly the 1947-48 Nakba/War of Independence, not the Partition Plan itself.
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Oct 17, 2015 22:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Then it's still apples to oranges because you would expect Arab land ownership inside the Jewish-controlled portions to appear in the last three pictures as well. Hell, then there's no point in having a Partition Plan map because what changed ownership between 1946 and, say, 1950 was predominantly the 1947-48 Nakba/War of Independence, not the Partition Plan itself. I think it's worth repeating point three from the last page here: Hong XiuQuan posted:No, maybe clarifying the labelling on the first map to say 'private land ownership under Mandate rule' would be more 'honest' here. The point at essence is to show what the Palestinians had and what they don't have. And the maps do that clearly. it takes some pedantry to squabble about it but that's fine - I still think the point is well-made. I think we can agree that the Palestinians were in a better national position in 1946 than they are now. These maps show the political degredation of that position through land. The first map focuses on ownership because there's no simple way to show the Palestinian position relative Palestinian Jews in 1946 and keep the comparisons coherent. The second map is the partition plan. The third map is the political reality after the nakba. The fourth map is a mix of post-nakba internationally recognised borders and Jewish de facto land ownership. You can argue it's apples, to oranges, to pears but then you'd be losing the core point.
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Oct 17, 2015 22:25
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quote:https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-did-israeli-soldier-plant-knife-teen-killed-settler Is there any source for this not as wildly biased as EI? Or more data besides 'some guys on the internet say they saw something in this low-res youtube clip'? I'm not saying it's not a wholly implausible theory, but that hardly constitutes evidence. Honestly, it's still more credible than some of the more bizarre conspiracy theories bruited about by anti-Zionists(cf. the guy who accidentally drove into a crowd and then accidentally got out and stabbed four people). But that's a low bar.
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Oct 17, 2015 22:44
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your american media
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Oct 17, 2015 22:45
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The Insect Court posted:Is there any source for this not as wildly biased as EI? Or more data besides 'some guys on the internet say they saw something in this low-res youtube clip'? I'm not saying it's not a wholly implausible theory, but that hardly constitutes evidence. 1) EI didn't make the video, so their worthiness as a source for this isn't something you can challenge because: Pallywood 2) I doubt there are many other sources because the IDF even when it does have video only releases edited video when it's helpful to Peter Lerner and have a tendency to beat/shoot at reporters 3) I guess we'll have to wait until all Palestinians have access to 4k video recording before we can cast doubt on the purity of arms of the IDF when dealing with perfidious Arabs. Next time you want to challenge something like this, I suggest you go with something along the lines of 'Gosh, if that is documentary record of a knife being planted on a murdered Palestinian then I hope the settler and his conspirators go to jail and anyone else at the scene who allowed him to continue at the scene of a crime with a gun out gets a proper reprimand. That video's pretty low res and the angles aren't great and, while it doesn't look good, it could well just be that he had a radio handed to him (which he handed back) and was just pointing at the ground or something. But yeah, this definitely needs to be investigated.'
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Oct 17, 2015 22:56
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I didn't even get through 3 paragraphs before I hit a 
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Oct 17, 2015 22:59
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Did you just rickroll me into reading a Jeffrey 'yafei nefesh (lol)' Goldberg article?
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Oct 17, 2015 22:59
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Did you just rickroll me into reading a Jeffrey 'yafei nefesh (lol)' Goldberg article? 
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Oct 17, 2015 23:04
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The Insect Court posted:Honestly, it's still more credible than some of the more bizarre conspiracy theories bruited about by anti-Zionists(cf. the guy who accidentally drove into a crowd and then accidentally got out and stabbed four people). But that's a low bar. e: Previously I wasn't sure where in the thread you were referring back to because you never directly engaged it yourself. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Oct 17, 2015 |
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Oct 17, 2015 23:16
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I wonder what it's like to live in that world. Are you completely at peace because you know that nothing is ever your fault and you never have to struggle with questions of morality, or are you constantly paranoid because you're likely to get assaulted on the street any day, no matter if you're shopping for groceries or firing live ammunition at children, with no discernible pattern?
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Oct 17, 2015 23:26
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Did you just rickroll me into reading a Jeffrey 'yafei nefesh (lol)' Goldberg article? Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-vVBRA_XcI I think there were some news in the thread I wanted to link this. Whatever it was, it's pages and pages behind us. But still. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Oct 17, 2015 |
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Oct 17, 2015 23:30
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Blood and Soil ideology is so 20th Century. The Israelis need to get with the times.
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Oct 17, 2015 23:31
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Xander77 posted:Is that a phrase that's getting traction in international circles? Because... um. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickrolling
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Oct 17, 2015 23:33
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The Insect Court posted:Is there any source for this not as wildly biased as EI? Or more data besides 'some guys on the internet say they saw something in this low-res youtube clip'? I'm not saying it's not a wholly implausible theory, but that hardly constitutes evidence. Please stop ignoring direct questions. It would be nice to hear where you stand.
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Oct 17, 2015 23:34
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Yafei Nefesh, genius.
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Oct 17, 2015 23:36
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Xander77 posted:Yafei Nefesh, genius. That was slightly tongue-in-cheek :P If you're familiar enough with Goldberg he said he earned a reputation for being one as a prison guard during his (Israeli) national service. I add the 'lol' because he covered up torture while working as a prison guard and since then he's been a racist, self-obsessed apologist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HDhmGho-fM
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Oct 17, 2015 23:41
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Reports from AJE anchor, Cal Perry, that Hebron is burning: https://twitter.com/perrycal/status/655515974381281280 quote:#Hebron in the West Bank is burning at this hour. Am told it is pretty close to total chaos. quote:This was always THE nightmare. The Israeli military having to choose between restraining and stopping settlers ... or not. #Hebron quote:Israeli settlers attacking houses in southern #Hebron. Cannot confirm if Israeli military is on scene or not. Do not know. quote:#Hebron just ... out of control. Military closing it off - SOP. No video yet that I can find ... Need a periscope. Not sure if it's actually as serious as his tweets make out. (If you haven't picked up SALR yet, do it. Makes reading Tweets watching YouTube links from SA a million times easier. LowTax needs to incorporate this stuff as default.)
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Oct 18, 2015 00:29
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The only democracy in the Middle East arrests eyewitnesses to possible crimes and confiscates all their recording equipment: http://www.imemc.org/article/73445 So, The Insect Court, how are you feeling about Pallywood right now?
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Oct 18, 2015 01:39
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A top Rabbi in Israel issued a Fatwa allowing Jews to beat the heads of unconscious/subdued Palestinians to a pulp: http://www.kikar.co.il/183060.html (It's in Hebrew, so use Google Translate to get the gist)
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Oct 18, 2015 02:52
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This is the second time you've brought this theory up in an attempt to discredit another poster. As far as I'm aware Hong XiuQuan has never said anything in support of this theory and you've never attempted to engage with it, so why do you think it's relevant at all? It very much seems like a strawman. Off the top of my head, I think it was Main Paineframe who was endorsing that one. And to correct your central misperception, I didn't suggest H.X. believed it. I presented it as an example of the sort of ludicrous conspiracy theories that can get treated with a degree of credibility or an absence of doubt in these threads by the more extreme anti-Zionist voices. I could, of course, provide plenty more examples from the past(there were posters suggesting that the death of those teenagers that prefaced the invasion of Gaza was a Mossad false flag, the regular suggestion of an international Zionist conspiracy, old favorites like the U.S.S. Liberty, etc.). Hong XiuQuan posted:That video's pretty low res and the angles aren't great and, while it doesn't look good, it could well just be that he had a radio handed to him (which he handed back) and was just pointing at the ground or something. But yeah, this definitely needs to be investigated.' It's good to see you're walking back your initial insinuations at least a little bit and not jumping straight to talk about coverups and conspiracies. Obviously, if new evidence emerges it will have to be considered in context, but until then the rational decision is clearly to suspend judgement. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 04:22
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Is a peace deal even possible in the near future? What would it take? Israel was too successful for its own good imo. Wanted to capitalize on those impressive territorial gains but now can't pull back so easy. Reaganball Z fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 05:51
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Hybrid children watch the sea Pray for Father, roaming free
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So, TIC are you ever going to clarify your position on house demolitions? Or actually engage with someone without defaulting to some apropos of nothing assertion nobody else brought up?
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Oct 18, 2015 07:10
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Hong XiuQuan posted:A top Rabbi in Israel issued a Fatwa forbidding Jews from attacking neutralized Palestinians yesterday: http://www.kikar.co.il/183060.html (It's in Hebrew, so use Google Translate to get the gist)
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Oct 18, 2015 08:12
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Ultramega posted:So, TIC are you ever going to clarify your position on house demolitions? Or actually engage with someone without defaulting to some apropos of nothing assertion nobody else brought up? I've engaged with posters making real arguments in good faith. I've also made clear my position against collective punishment in previous posts, and I don't see the need to repeat it in every single post for the benefit of those who show no interest in engaging in constructive discussion. But since I've responded to your question, will you have the courtesy to respond to one yourself? Do you consider knife attacks against Israeli civilians(including in the West Bank) to be morally acceptable? Hong XiuQuan posted:A top Rabbi in Israel issued a Fatwa allowing Jews to beat the heads of unconscious/subdued Palestinians to a pulp: http://www.kikar.co.il/183060.html (It's in Hebrew, so use Google Translate to get the gist) I assume these one-liner links are being C&P'ed from another source(since it's unlikely you're a regular reader of http://www.kikar.co.il/). If that's the case, why not save yourself the effort and let us know where you're getting them from? Oh, and as Xander77 points out, if you had done more than get the 'gist' of the article, you would have realized that the comment was in response to one by a different "top rabbi" stating it was not permitted to harm neutralized assailants. And while I know result counts are not an accurate metric of influence: Ben Zion Mutzafi - 2,810 Rabbi David Stav - 72,000 You know how Islamophobes will pluck out some ridiculous or bloodthirsty fatwa issued by a marginal mufti with a handful of followers and suggest that it reflects the belief of Muslims as a whole?
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Oct 18, 2015 08:50
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The Insect Court posted:It's good to see you're walking back your initial insinuations at least a little bit and not jumping straight to talk about coverups and conspiracies. Obviously, if new evidence emerges it will have to be considered in context, but until then the rational decision is clearly to suspend judgement. I haven't walked back anything. I'm pointing out how you could have responded to the post in a human fashion, rather than a robotic 'must discredit as much as possible' fashion.
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Oct 18, 2015 09:04
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The Insect Court posted:I've engaged with posters making real arguments in good faith. I've also made clear my position against collective punishment in previous posts, and I don't see the need to repeat it in every single post for the benefit of those who show no interest in engaging in constructive discussion. I've seen this question raised with you several times over many pages and you've never answered it. For the benefit of those who haven't seen you answer it because they suspect they already know the answer, could you please answer it directly and dispel any unnecessary opprobrium? The Insect Court posted:I assume these one-liner links are being C&P'ed from another source(since it's unlikely you're a regular reader of http://www.kikar.co.il/). If that's the case, why not save yourself the effort and let us know where you're getting them from? Haha wow, you're in full attack mode now, aren't you? 1) I can't see what Xander has written beyond just a quote on my Awful app so assuming can only read it on PC. Will do that later. Have I miscommunicated the article in some way? Is the fact that another Rabbi has said otherwise meant that Mutzafi's words are entirely irrelevant? 2) Why yes, I try to read as much as possible from Arabic, English and Hebrew sources. gently caress me, right? Feel free to assume either I found it myself, I read an Arabic equivalent of MEMRI or I follow an Israeli commentator on Twitter - in either circumstance it doesn't matter. 3) It takes you two full paragraphs of attack to actually get to the article itself. Now what do you say? One, you argue that it's marginal and two you erect a straw man to try to discredit it. Now, I don't know about you, but in English language sources and indeed even in Arabic sources, I read a lot about what Palestinians say or do. I even read MEMRI! I think it's valuable to look at what Israeli political and religious leaders are saying, particularly at times of religious tension. In this case a popular Rabbi - wait, let's call him marginal - a marginal Rabbi, who you could hardly accuse of being a street preacher accosting people at road crossings, has issued the equivalent of a fatwa, that is a (presumably) non-binding legal opinion which is disgusting, murderous and outrageous. Now your first response hasn't been to say 'wow, that's horrific', 'Gosh I wish the government would do something about that crazy man' or even just 'I hope nobody in their right mind listens to him'. Instead you're trying to equate bringing this up with engendering the equivalent of Islamophobia - so I guess antisemitism? So no, I'm not going to stop posting from Hebrew language sources. Yes, I will always direct people to try to read the article to get the gist for themselves, even from Google translate, though if you want to give what you feel is a fairer assessment, please do so. And I'm going to do it whenever I can because these words absolutely need exposure. E: ah right, I see what Xander did there. Hey Xander, well done. Thanks for the addition. I would have hoped anyone who cares enough could have got that from the article but for your benefit (and mine), next time I'll include all in summary so I avoid easy attacks based on 'well this disgusting piece of poo poo Rabbi may well have said X, but what about this nice Rabbi who said y?' Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 09:20
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What's the situation like economically in Israel these days? I remember a few years back people protesting over housing prices or whatever. Have any issues been solved or have things just gotten worse? Could internal issues within Israel be driving this whole mess?
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Oct 18, 2015 10:01
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So a few days ago, this went down in an Israeli school's parents' Whatsapp chat room. Don't think I've seen it in this thread:YNET posted:“If there is an Arab kid in the kindergarten it’s time to expel him!” wrote one of the parents in relation to a 3-year-old Arab Bedouin girl, Nura, who attends the kindergarten. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4711211,00.html Now, in Britain, this kind of behaviour could be criminally sanctioned. The school would also have to take appropriate action. Do any of the Israeli posters know if the police are even promising to investigate? The Insect Court: if/when you choose to respond to this, as you likely feel compelled you must, please do answer my previous questions or I'm going to have to start ignoring you as a snipe & run.
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Oct 18, 2015 11:02
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Hong XiuQuan posted:
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Oct 18, 2015 11:55
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Absurd Alhazred posted:This is yet another spurious and unhelpful Nazi comparison, which again, I'm not probating people over, but we've had this discussion upthread months ago. I'm sure you can find regimes, even in that area, with similar policies, to shame Israelis by comparing them with. This reminds me a lot more of what I've read and watched of the French occupation in Algeria than it does of the Nazis (hints: they unabashedly mass-murdered people and didn't put the wounded in their own hospitals other than to experiment on them). I think the house demolishing stuff is pretty lovely, and besides it doesn't seem to work as a deterrent, anyway it's a bone I have to pick with Israel. It's one of the things that pushed me to 'side with' the Palestinians long ago when I used to. But I have absolutely zero issue with the corpse thing. If somone does something like a terrorist attack, a murder, these knife attacks, they give up their right to live, especially and unequivocally during the period where they are still an active danger to others, that's why it's not wrong for the police or bystanders or whoever to kill them in order to stop them. They give up their right to have their remains returned to their family or whatever the minute they decide to start murdering people. Im sure the relatives would like to have the remains back, but tough poo poo, that ship sailed when the perpetrator decided to kill some random people with a knife. When he decided to do that, he also decided his family wasn't getting his body back.
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Oct 18, 2015 12:48
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From a CBA standpoint, can't say the optics of Jews stealing corpses helps them.
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Oct 18, 2015 13:02
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hakimashou posted:I think the house demolishing stuff is pretty lovely, and besides it doesn't seem to work as a deterrent, anyway it's a bone I have to pick with Israel. It's one of the things that pushed me to 'side with' the Palestinians long ago when I used to. I don't think it's quite as simple as you make it out to be.
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Oct 18, 2015 13:05
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Xander77 posted:You're more than welcome, and thank you for your valuable contribution to this discussion. Should I start posting every single Itbah al Yahud I see on facebook? Would that be relevant? Hey, you post whatever you want to buddy. With regards to my contribution, I happen to think that the prevailing narrative is that a restrained European-like primarily Jewish Israeli population exists on the basis of being a light unto nations, operating with purity of arms, desperate for peace but not willing to negotiate with rabid dogs and, lacking a basic partner for peace, just wants its population to get along in peace and security. Sometimes it's forced to use arms to defend itself but only against an incomparably genocidal enemy who wants to push Jews into the sea - indeed, any time a Palestinian attacks a Jew it is because he or she is Jewish. There is no other explanation. The Palestinians, meanwhile, could have whatever they want if only they'd be reasonable. They are barely-restrained beasts existing as a powder keg with muftis and imams and secular Arabists holding matches over them just waiting for some Jew blood. They send out their sons and daughters to die and chant at funerals like animals, using it as an opportunity to drive more hatred and kill more Jews. This allows people like Stephens at the WSJ to talk of Palestinians as psychopaths; for the Israeli ambassador to London to talk about Arabs having a deep, murderous hatred of Jews; for Goldberg to position this conflict as a deep-burning religious one rather than one about a people suffering under occupation; for Rudoren to talk about Palestinian funerals as being something very much unlike our human funerals. So yeah, if I find anything that casts doubt on that decades-old narrative, I'll share it if I like. And you share whatever you like to reinforce whatever narrative you think best describes the situation. And feel free to challenge me, for example, if it's a lie that the Israeli Rabbi said this. Or if you think it's OK that he said it. Or if you think it doesn't matter that he said it. Kol ha kavod. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Oct 18, 2015 |
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Oct 18, 2015 13:25
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Speaking of posting about Israelis in positions of power saying stuff - genocidal maniac-in-the-making Ayelet Shaked has said:Ayelet "They are all enemy combatants and on our hands shall be their blood" Shaked posted:We are against a Palestinian state[...] There is not and never will be a Palestinian state and Naftali Bennett has said: Naftali "I've killed lots of Arabs" Bennett posted:The world is longing for a clear statement by the State of Israel that Abbas isn't a partner, and that Israel objects to a Palestinian state. Abu Mazen is a terrorist, one shouldn't talk with him. Both quotes from here: http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defense/89389-151018-israel-s-us-envoy-refutes-claim-that-settlements-linked-to-current-violence This is over the last few days. Combine that with Likud's platform of 1996 and behaviour since, as well as that secret recording of Netanyahu and it's clear the current and prevailing Israeli leadership neither wants a Palestinian leadership nor to give Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza the rights they need and deserve. To anyone who would shoot down accusations of Apartheid on the basis that the West Bank and Gaza aren't really part of Israel - I think that needs to be put to rest now. NB: these aren't 'marginal' politicians. These are Ministers of the Israeli state. Extremists in power.
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Oct 18, 2015 13:42
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hakimashou posted:They give up their right to have their remains returned to their family or whatever the minute they decide to start murdering people. Most importantly, they gave up their rights to be treated as human beings when they decided to be born as Arabs.
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Oct 18, 2015 14:28
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hakimashou posted:They give up their right to have their remains returned to their family or whatever the minute they decide to start murdering people. This is incorrect. Israel's new policy does not apply to all murders. It does not apply, for example, to a settler killed by security forces after murdering an Arab (or a Jewish person they mistake for an Arab). It is specifically Palestinians who murder Israelis that give up rights. It is not simply because "they decide to start murdering people".
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Oct 18, 2015 16:10
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Hong XiuQuan posted:
People actually say that? That's like saying the British Empire was a thriving democracy because India wasn't part of the United Kingdom.
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Oct 18, 2015 16:16
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DrProsek posted:This is incorrect. Israel's new policy does not apply to all murders. It does not apply, for example, to a settler killed by security forces after murdering an Arab (or a Jewish person they mistake for an Arab). As if a settler was at risk of being killed by Israel's security forces, no matter what he does. At most they'd try to subdue him, and then he'd be freed a half hour later.
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Oct 18, 2015 17:08
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