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Nebakenezzer posted:The surrender monkey BS really is just Americans and British being smug about World War 2, and even then, as you said the stereotype doesn't fit. As for today, France might be the only European NATO nation with its poo poo together militarily. It has the largest standing army in Europe, and is the only nation on earth (aside from the United States) operating a proper aircraft carrier. It also has a procurement system that actually functions well, which is totally unique in the west. Their poo poo isn't quite as together as it may look, according to French soldiers interviewed.. Much of the equipment in active service is similar to what was in use in the 1970s or prior, as soldiers themselves need to pay for large amounts of even basic gear. They have a billion and one variants of the FAMAS, which they're trying to replace but can't really afford to. The FAMAS itself is uncomfortable, not as accurate as it should be, and needs to use steel-cased ammo to function properly (which is apparently being made in China, as it's no longer made domestically). While the French are on active duty now,
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Oct 19, 2015 02:41
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Nebakenezzer posted:As for today, France might be the only European NATO nation with its poo poo together militarily. Poland? Netherlands? Spain? They are all doing reasonably well considering their economic realities. At least collectively they're, if not parity, near-parity with France. chitoryu12 posted:needs to use steel-cased ammo to function properly ಠ_ಠ cheapskates.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:23
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Keldoclock posted:ಠ_ಠ cheapskates. The problem is the operating mechanism. It uses a delayed blowback operation rather than gas operation, but unlike the really nice roller-locked delayed blowback Heckler & Koch uses for the G3 and MP5 (dating back to the MG 42!) it's very harsh on the casings and tends to tear up brass or even cause overpressure dangers. Steel is hard enough to prevent these problems, but they farmed out all their steel ammo production to China.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:27
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Squalid posted:
10/4/45, 0430: Still just permafrost.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:29
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chitoryu12 posted:steel ammo It's just an instinctive reaction for me. I can tolerate corrosive primers but steel cased ammo makes me look upon it in disgust. The worst is this garbage:  Thanks for plating your steel cases in brass, increasing the cost while fooling absolutely nobody. For a military of course steel with whatever polymer, zinc, imitation brass plating is just as good if not superior (due to lower costs increasing potential availability, both during wartime and training). I just like to find the perfect loads for particular rifles, tune barrel harmonics, etc and have a certain expectation of minimal standards for weapons (and I detest Berdan primers). I hope the French armories have plenty of spare extractors 
Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 03:33
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That article is the equivalent of someone doing a status report on the US Army by reading GIP. Infantry equipment was lagging at the time simply because France has been trying to make the FELIN boondogle work for the last 20 years, and is finally adopting it these last few years (They equipped the last of the infantry regiments this year), so infantry gear has stagnated while waiting for it. It is deployed by now, and manages to be exactly as ridiculous as it sounds (Computerized sights linked to an LCD eyepiece to shoot around corners. Yes, they really fielded that). It's hiliariously '90s, and overly heavy but i suspect the soldiers will just dump the useless bits and use the actually useful ones, like the Blue Force Tracker-like system and the IR sights. Also the FAMAS ammo thing is a multi-step fuckup : GIAT goes kabloey, the French army must now buy ammo from commercial manufacturers. They buy some off-the-shelf NATO standard ammo, works fine in most things, but not the old first gen FAMAS of the Army, ends up shooting like a musket (They bought 62gr ammo, the first gen FAMAS has 1:11 rifling, that just doesn't work) They buy some more off-the-shelf ammo, this time with 55gr bullets, just for the old FAMAS. Turns outs either the brass is too soft or the pressure curves are wrong, but it ends up sometimes rupturing cases. Then they just say gently caress it and issue the old stock back to people while they just upgrade the rifles. It mostly made news because of the 'DEY TOOK UR JERBS' angle of the Army buying ammo from dirty foreigners. Kafouille fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 03:38
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I'm not sure a military force has ever existed that did not complain about their equipment.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:40
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Fangz posted:I'm not sure a military force has ever existed that did not complain about their equipment. To go along with, everyone has been convinced that their opponent's gear is better.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:42
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chitoryu12 posted:Their poo poo isn't quite as together as it may look, according to French soldiers interviewed.. Much of the equipment in active service is similar to what was in use in the 1970s or prior, as soldiers themselves need to pay for large amounts of even basic gear. They have a billion and one variants of the FAMAS, which they're trying to replace but can't really afford to. The FAMAS itself is uncomfortable, not as accurate as it should be, and needs to use steel-cased ammo to function properly (which is apparently being made in China, as it's no longer made domestically). While the French are on active duty now, I hear positivethings about their spreading out a good number of rifle grenades in a squad, though.
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Oct 19, 2015 04:18
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Anecdotal: the handful of times I worked with the French military they impressed me more than any other nation I worked with. They were pretty generally fantastic people and very, very capable soldiers.
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Oct 19, 2015 04:21
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Kafouille posted:That article is the equivalent of someone doing a status report on the US Army by reading GIP. Dear comrade, as instructed by the intelligence section of the People's Army I have begun a careful surveillance of the Goons in Platoons forum. I will remain lurking until I learn the methods they use to achieve their remarkable record of inebriation. For such an efficient unit, the behavior in posting is extremely haphazard and undisciplined.
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Oct 19, 2015 04:24
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:To go along with, everyone has been convinced that their opponent's gear is better.
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Oct 19, 2015 04:30
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Glorious Worker and Peasant Red Army supplies only the best gear for its soldiers! What is this counterrevolutionary defeatist complaining I hear?
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Oct 19, 2015 04:32
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I own only one piece of French gear right now. It's a tactical vest that was made some time in the 90s or early 2000s. It's not too bulky, but it's pretty heavy for a bare piece of kit and you're meant to attach ALICE equipment to both straps on the vest and a built-in ALICE belt.
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Oct 19, 2015 04:36
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bewbies posted:Anecdotal: the handful of times I worked with the French military they impressed me more than any other nation I worked with. They were pretty generally fantastic people and very, very capable soldiers. Second-hand anecdote: my mate is in the NZ defence force and thinks the steyr AUG (or whichever knock-off it is we use) is a heap of poo poo, generally prefers the more old-fashioned weapon, wishes he got to shoot anything more often. He's also described UNIMOGS as being fun but almost continuously breaking down as if by rote.
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Oct 19, 2015 04:54
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Military vehicles are driven by 18 year olds who don't own them and who will get issued another one if it's broken. It's surprising any survive more than 3 weeks.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:29
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Keldoclock posted:Thanks for plating your steel cases in brass, increasing the cost while fooling absolutely nobody. Does that help prevent corrosion, or is that not a problem with steel ammo anyway unless you badly mistreat it?
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Oct 19, 2015 05:30
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Phanatic posted:10/4/45, 0430: Still just permafrost. 10/4/45, 0435: More freezing Lithuanians Arquinsiel posted:Could it be that the modern US military are the only force in history to be reasonably sure that 99% of their gear is better than what the other guy has? This. Also, more anecdotal, I'm surprised how short American soldiers seem. Most that I saw on public events here were about my size and even smaller, and I was the second shortest dude in my class.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:10
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Oct 19, 2015 07:03
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Edit: ↑ Beautiful, if unrealistic.The Lone Badger posted:Does that help prevent corrosion, or is that not a problem with steel ammo anyway unless you badly mistreat it? Steel cased ammunition must always be given a coating- either plastic, lacquer or other metals like zinc or nickel. Golden Bear using brass instead of zinc or plastic to coat its ammunition can only be some sort of marketing gimmick. Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 07:05
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Lancers, Hornets, F-16s, F-22, half of the B2 Fleet, those smaller planes I can't identify, a carrier... and all from discrete package of five trucks carrying a helo drone big enough to shoot down with a tank.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:39
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JcDent posted:10/4/45, 0435: More freezing Lithuanians Might be a wealth thing. Height correlates with wealth, poor people join an all-volunteer military more than rich people, so you get a lot of shorties. Or something. This is basically a keldoclock post so correct me if I'm wrong.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:50
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I did some very fast research and the average size of a US Army Ranger is 5'9 and 174 pounds. The average male height in the US is 5'9.5 (or 5'10 for only European-descent Americans), so the average height of a Ranger is....average.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:55
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When did soldier nutrition become a thing? Like when did armies decide to feed their troops stuff that was scientifically better for them rather than just whatever food there was lots of.
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Oct 19, 2015 08:17
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Slavvy posted:When did soldier nutrition become a thing? Like when did armies decide to feed their troops stuff that was scientifically better for them rather than just whatever food there was lots of. Certainly wasn't the IJA. They continued to use white rice instead of brown rice despite knowing drat well brown had more than just calories. Unfortunately thier attitude was thus: SAMURAI SPIRIT CURES SCURVY.
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Oct 19, 2015 08:34
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Slavvy posted:When did soldier nutrition become a thing? Like when did armies decide to feed their troops stuff that was scientifically better for them rather than just whatever food there was lots of. British navy with their antiscorbutics?
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Oct 19, 2015 08:43
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Slavvy posted:When did soldier nutrition become a thing? Like when did armies decide to feed their troops stuff that was scientifically better for them rather than just whatever food there was lots of. Soldier nutrition in the sense of "Give them enough calories" started becoming a thing in the 18th and 19th centuries, when standardized rations started being made. But these were simply "X grams of This Food per day", often with multiple substitution options. It took the early 20th century to get mass produced standardized rations that a soldier could carry themselves in the battlefield. Before that, the closest you got was the British navy handing out citrus and citrus juices. At first they didn't even know that the stuff prevented scurvy, just that the sailors drinking lime juice with their grog were healthier. Eventually the connection got made (even though they hadn't discovered vitamins yet), and began issuing antiscorbutics specifically. The US was historically very unique starting in World War II, as their soldier ration system was highly specialized and they used mass produced components for individual rations. You had A-rations (fresh food produced by cooks in garrison), B-rations (food prepared by field kitchens from canned and preserved ingredients), and C-rations (ready-to-eat canned rations). The US completely standardized the C-ration, with mass produced identical canned components in several menus. Like any canned food it was safe to eat cold, though you'd probably hate it if you did....and everyone did. The C-ration was meant to be used for a short period of time before returning to base for fresher food, but some soldiers went a week or more eating nothing but C-rations due to the nature of warfare. The Meal, Combat, Individual (or MCI) that replaced C-rations in Vietnam was almost identical except for greater variation in the menus, and still called C-rations by the soldiers. The first real innovation in soldier nutrition was the MRE, which started special issue in 1982 and standard issue in 1986. It uses retort pouches (essentially the same thing as canned food, but in a flexible pouch) that can be boiled or put in a water-activated chemical heater, and other items like snacks and drinks come in plastic and foil packs instead of cans and wax paper. For much of this same period, the rest of the world didn't exactly follow the American idea. During World War II the Russians and Germans had extremely similar rations, where soldiers were simply allotted a certain amount of particular foods like canned meat, crackers or bread, and coffee or tea and given the loose items shortly before they were expected to need them. The food procurement system was practically identical to the late 19th century methods, and the soldiers rarely had enough during their respective country's hardest times. The Japanese were even worse, as they actually expected their soldiers to forage for game, fish, and plants (or just take poo poo from the natives) to supplement their rations. The soldiers still got more food than Japanese peasants did, but nowhere near as much as the Americans. Soldiers were expected to cook their own meals in their mess kits as well, rather than getting ready made food from a field kitchen. The Japanese also kinda had a major fuckup early on with their rice, packing it into containers that weren't totally waterproof and rotted in the humid tropical climate they were fighting in (it's easy to forget that the Japanese soldiers weren't exactly fighting in familiar territory in tropical jungles). To more specifically answer your question, for most of history the idea of soldier nutrition was "Do they lose weight, get lethargic, and/or die when fed these rations? If not, ship it." I don't think it was until the MREs that serious scientific dollars were given to soldier nutrition beyond making sure that they survived on the diet and ate most of their food. The MRE is in constant advancement, with new menus and items appearing and old or unpopular ones being rotated out every year. There's even more variety in rations now than the US had back in World War II. The big problem for soldier nutrition was rarely actual deficiencies and more commonly soldiers not having enough, or not liking their food enough to eat all of it. I know there were tests done in the 90s because the MRE was supposed to be scientifically ideal for soldiers but they were still losing weight and suffering from problems like constipation. The testing unveiled that MREs were fine, but soldiers were throwing away or trading items they didn't want. The constipation was traced to two factors: soldiers are just plain scared to take a dump in a warzone, and they often exercised heavily while consuming massive amounts of protein shakes in an effort to get jacked. On a less American front, the Soviets went through some big changes during their 1980s invasion of Afghanistan. The rations they issued got revamped to include greater variety and larger amounts of food, as they were going into mountain combat prepared to fight a combined arms war on gently rolling hills in Europe. The mountain rations had greater caloric content and were more standardized, and supplemental items like chocolate were sent directly to bases to be handed out to soldiers as the officers saw fit. I've been "lucky" enough to sample every current issue US ration and several foreign rations, and I can give some general opinions on their differences. American MREs: Nutritionally sound, but you need to eat everything. The main meal is surprisingly small and usually only has 200 to 300 calories. You have to eat everything, from the crackers with questionable cheese spread to the beverage powder to get all of the calories you're meant to. The US is unusual in that it rarely issues 24-hour rations, and one MRE is a single meal. American FSRs: The First Strike Ration was developed as an easier-to-eat replacement for MREs for assaults and similar situations where cooking is impractical. It doesn't come with a cooker or any items that need cooking. Instead of entree pouches, you get pocket sandwiches. I don't really like them, as they're pretty dry (imagine the wheat snack bread from an MRE with a Slim Jim stuffed inside and you've got one; you can buy the sandwiches here). The other items are the same stuff as MREs or some unique items, including honest to God Starkist tuna pouches. They provide similar caloric and vitamin content to an MRE, but you still gotta eat it all. Don't be a quitter. American LRP and MCW Rations: The Long Range Patrol and Meal, Cold Weather rations are pretty rare in actual issue, and I could only find one person selling them online. They're both lighter alternatives to the MRE and virtually identical, with dehydrated entrees. They're about the same as MREs in nutrition, but the food is much lighter at the cost of needing hot water to reconstitute. The food is actually pretty nice, sometimes better than MRE entrees. They've got some unique snack items like dried berries as well. British 24-Hour Ration: Comes in a cardboard box with all the items just loosely thrown in. There's three meals in there, but you have to dig out and separate the items....or just eat them whenever. The entrees are boil-in-bag retort pouches and really similar to MREs in quality. Most of the supplementary items are commercial bits like fruit bars and candy. There was a small bag full of grapefruit flavored boiled sweets, too. The amount of food was really nice and there's tons of tea and powdered drinks like awesome hot chocolate. There's a lot of fruit, mostly in the form of fruit bars or baby food-style squeeze pouches. One major flaw is that only a single spoon is provided, whereas the American rations have a spoon for every meal. Lithuanian Ration: The Lithuanians took their cue from the MRE and it's really similar in outward appearance. The menu I had (a beef stew of some kind) was actually better than the American version. They included a bar of quality milk chocolate. I did notice that it was somewhat lacking in components compared to MREs, but they added a pack of nuts that actually had a ton of calories in a very small space. Nuts are great ration food. The coffee unfortunately tasted burnt. Ukrainian Rations: AVOID LIKE THE loving PLAGUE. I had two of these. The old version comes in what looks like a big lunch tray divided into three sections, which can be broken off (badly) from one another to divide up your meals. The newer version has each meal packed into a separate green bag, which are then packed into a larger bag that vaguely resembles an MRE bag (but is so weak you can tear it open with your fingers). Each meal came with a pack with what seemed like half a pound of похід (Pokhid, or "Hike") crackers that were stale before the bag was opened. There's basically no supplemental items except one or two beverages in each section. No candy, snacks, nothing. The entrees are all canned meat products. At best you get bland kasha with shredded beef and fat. At worst, you get some incredibly greasy and salty hunk of pink stuff that I couldn't even stomach more than two bites of. I have pictures of all the contents and it was awful. I don't have enough words to describe how incredibly terrible Ukrainian rations are, but they're pretty similar to what the Cold War would have. Xerxes17 posted:Certainly wasn't the IJA. They continued to use white rice instead of brown rice despite knowing drat well brown had more than just calories. Unfortunately thier attitude was thus: The Imperial Japanese had a hilariously self-destructive love of white rice. To prevent nutritional deficiency from eating finely polished white rice, they issued rice mixed with barley. The soldiers promptly picked out the barley and tossed it to their Korean slaves. chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 08:53
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Thank you for that amazing post. Edit: Does sound like the Ukrainian military hews closest to True Communism. 
Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 09:06
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OK，ordering the wrong kind of rifle ammo by mistake is one thing, but the British actually built an aircraft carrier with no planes to carry.
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Oct 19, 2015 09:32
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Throatwarbler posted:OK，ordering the wrong kind of rifle ammo by mistake is one thing, but the British actually built an aircraft carrier with no planes to carry. I remember the air defence thread having a lot fun over that issue. chitoryu12 posted:Lithuanian Ration: The Lithuanians took their cue from the MRE and it's really similar in outward appearance. The menu I had (a beef stew of some kind) was actually better than the American version. They included a bar of quality milk chocolate. I did notice that it was somewhat lacking in components compared to MREs, but they added a pack of nuts that actually had a ton of calories in a very small space. Nuts are great ration food. The coffee unfortunately tasted burnt. Honest to God, I never realized we had those. I finished the Afghanistan book yesterday, will provide with gory details later on. The war was a still a disorganized jumbled mess to the end. At one memorable point, the guy had to drive the BMP that was basically the village bicycle, so it hadn't had any maintenance ever since the original mechanic mustered out. A diesel leak went into the troop compartment and started a fire (I don't remember, but it might have burned their food), but the troops managed to douse it before the ammo cooked off. They doused it with their drinking water, so had they had to go without for the next day. At one point, the IFV got stuck and they had to hammer the third gear in place to get it moving.
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Oct 19, 2015 10:20
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Xerxes17 posted:Certainly wasn't the IJA. They continued to use white rice instead of brown rice despite knowing drat well brown had more than just calories. Unfortunately thier attitude was thus: So you're saying the Samurai myth is the IJA's fault?
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Oct 19, 2015 10:43
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chitoryu12 posted:Soldier nutrition in the sense of "Give them enough calories" started becoming a thing in the 18th and 19th centuries, when standardized rations started being made. But these were simply "X grams of This Food per day", often with multiple substitution options. Also after the 30yw a bunch of people, especially the French, start thinking seriously about supply quote:I don't think it was until the MREs that serious scientific dollars were given to soldier nutrition beyond making sure that they survived on the diet and ate most of their food. This is also the time when people (at least the French) start thinking about what effect rations have on morale; Vauban writes about making sure fortresses get enough tobacco. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 11:42
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My book on Soviet munitions had a passage that made me curious. What's more effective: Air-dropped illuminating rounds, or those shot by artillery?
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Oct 19, 2015 11:45
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Throatwarbler posted:OK，ordering the wrong kind of rifle ammo by mistake is one thing, but the British actually built an aircraft carrier with no planes to carry. Two of them, actually. Blame Lockheed Martin's lies.
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Oct 19, 2015 11:45
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Trin Tragula posted:By contrast, it seems that nobody in French high command gave a shite about the men on any practical level (and even if they had, there's only so much you can do from on high to change the culture of an institution of millions of men). Like spending a winter (or was it two?) out in the open trenches, mostly without any shelter in the rain, snow and mud? Finding shelter in the field only when they occupied a german trench, where they had dug some. Barthas writes they were forbidden to dig them themselves in the first year, so that the men don't lose their offensive spirit. How detached is that? The officers occupy a warm shelter that they hardly leave and the men soak and freeze and catch shrapnell.
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Oct 19, 2015 11:55
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JaucheCharly posted:Like spending a winter (or was it two?) out in the open trenches, mostly without any shelter in the rain, snow and mud? Finding shelter in the field only when they occupied a german trench, where they had dug some. Barthas writes they were forbidden to dig them themselves in the first year, so that the men don't lose their offensive spirit. How detached is that? The officers occupy a warm shelter that they hardly leave and the men soak and freeze and catch shrapnell. One joke explanation why Marine Corp keeps getting old equipment, no medical check and bullshit tasks is that the command keeps them angry and fighting that way.
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Oct 19, 2015 12:24
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100 Years Ago The Austro-Hungarians return to Sabac, site of such bitter fighting back in September 1914, almost without a fight, as the French finally start trying to help. General Niessel visits Louis Barthas's hole and demonstrates to everyone the proper offensive spirit, and Kenneth Best's published diaries end in singularly dull fashion with his return to Blighty for an extended period of recuperation.
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Oct 19, 2015 12:54
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JcDent posted:One joke explanation why Marine Corp keeps getting old equipment, no medical check and bullshit tasks is that the command keeps them angry and fighting that way. The real reason the Marines don't get new equipment is that anytime anyone ask them what they want they insist someone should put GAU-8s on F4U Corsairs.
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Oct 19, 2015 13:54
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Hazzard posted:So you're saying the Samurai myth is the IJA's fault? No, it's Ohio's fault.
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Oct 19, 2015 14:01
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feedmegin posted:Two of them, actually. Blame Lockheed Martin's lies. Well that's not entirely fair. I'd put far more blame on BAE who flat out lied about the price of the CATOBAR conversion once it became a real thing. The F-35 definitely didn't help, but the STOVL design got them in this mess of being forced to buy a plane they can't afford. Mazz fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 14:16
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