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You can cover that as part of psych 101, you don't have to have everything you do be group work.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:03
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Negligent posted:You can cover that as part of psych 101, you don't have to have everything you do be group work. Well yes, unless you subscribe to the view that practise makes perfect.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:10
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Knowing how a group works and knowing how to work in a group are different things.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:12
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Les Affaires posted:Well yes, unless you subscribe to the view that practise makes perfect. Episteme and techne? not in my university, thank you very much! It's sad, actually, that a lot of universities have 'graudate attributes' that they're pushing which are just a shoddy imitation of what a classical liberal arts education was meant to achieve.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:18
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Everyone knows that the real key to getting a good job after uni is remembering a lot of formulas. That's why we've comprehensively rejected the liberal arts as useless and irrelevant.
open24hours fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 05:21
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Jumpingmanjim posted:Why don't the international students bear some responsibility for these problems. No one makes them attend a university that teaches in a language they don't understand. Except that with the amount that universities push for international students they are the victim in this as well. Universities only get so many funded places for domestic students and can't take in any more than that so you might have places for 30 students which will fund 2 academics, if you can attract 100 international full fee paying students all of a sudden you can fund 4 more academics who are also producing research and making your institution better. The universities push their degrees hard on international students as a result of the way funding is done in Australia. Blaming international students for these problems is loving dumb. Even blaming universities for these problems is dumb since they're being put in a position where their best recourse is to pass a bunch of people who can't speak english. The problem here is the policy that has been applied to higher education funding and model since 1996. The entire time Howard was in government university funding was not indexed. So every year the universities in Australia received in real terms less funding by whatever inflation was. So basically they lost 30% of their funding while being expected to cater to more people, with higher level facilities and a rapidly changing technology base. So whining about international students is the same as whining about immigration, it's taking a problem that exists due to our own actions and blaming it on the victim of that problem, and not even the Australian victim of that problem (because dunce Australians are passed as well since universities have a bell curve requirement for scaling/marks) but on the foreign victims of a domestic problem. Ascribing an issue with a domestic system to intervention of an "other" is racism. EDIT: The second part of this is directed at Negligent not you Jim. hooman fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 05:23
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Les Affaires posted:Well yes, unless you subscribe to the view that practise makes perfect. Like I said, the kind of group interaction that happens in a lot of professions bears little resemblance to writing a group assignment in university. Practising how to do X when you will seldom need to do it in the workplace is enough of a problem that the second tier unis market themselves on this very point.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:38
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Mr Chips posted:Wasn't 'damaging commonwealth property' potentially one of the triggers for deporting dual nationals under the proposed counter-terrorism laws? Yes but unfortunately MPs have to renounce any extra nationalities before sitting in parliament, IIRC
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Oct 19, 2015 05:52
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SynthOrange posted:I'd say it's not even about students, but unis desperate for cash. This. 1) lack of funding, therefore get money from students 2) lack of funding, a weakened teaching infrastructure and support for students 3) Get top dollar from foreign students 4) Every student to get a C- at least to keep the money coming in. You'll see this come up a lot with Chinese students because their middle class is willing to spend money on foreign uni especially since most of their education is garbage and not worth the paper its printed on. So you get so-so students, who'll be helped along to keep the money flowing. http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2013/09/college-degree-worthless-todays-china/ http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/apr/15/chinese-students-in-uk-poor-results http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/american-universities-are-addicted-to-chinese-students/394517/ http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/05/29/u-s-schools-expelled-8000-chinese-students-for-poor-grades-cheating/
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Oct 19, 2015 05:52
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Its very much a problem with mainland Chinese. You don't get the same problems from Hong Kongers, Taiwanese or Singaporeans.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:55
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Probably to do with mandatory english classes in those places. Somehow. 
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Oct 19, 2015 05:59
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hooman posted:Except that with the amount that universities push for international students they are the victim in this as well. Universities only get so many funded places for domestic students and can't take in any more than that so you might have places for 30 students which will fund 2 academics, if you can attract 100 international full fee paying students all of a sudden you can fund 4 more academics who are also producing research and making your institution better. The universities push their degrees hard on international students as a result of the way funding is done in Australia. Well I disagree. I don't think you can sheet home 100% of the responsibility for a problem - international students in universities with poor English - to a single source of inadequate federal funding. That is giving universities and individual students way too much of a free pass for their contributing role. E: and its not even a uniquely Australian problem, so stating a single government policy as the sole cause is a massive reach Negligent fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 05:59
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Well then what do you think is the cause of the problem, if not "tories did their usual fuckery, Universities in need of funding, international students best source of said funding, thus it is in a university's best interests to bend as many rules as possible to pass as many international students as possible"? Do you think there's some innate property to international students that makes them more likely to be drat shiftless leaners? The reason it seems like International students are lazy and cheat more often than Domestic students is because Domestic students are better at getting away with it. Domestic students have (in most cases) gone through the entire Australian Primary and Secondary education systems which have made them extremely skilled at, for example, rewriting a wikipedia article such that it doesn't appear to be directly plagiarised, then sprinkling non-wiki sources throughout so it seems like you actually did proper research rather than half-assing it. Uni can be hard enough even with those sorts of survival skills that let you cobble together a bullshit essay the night beforehand for a passable mark, let alone without them while learning in a non-native language in a perhaps unfamiliar cultural environment. It's not that Australian students are in any way better scholars, it's just that they're better at covering their tracks when they had to get their hands dirty to garble my metaphors. BBJoey fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 06:02
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SynthOrange posted:Probably to do with mandatory english classes in those places. Somehow. Mainland China has mandatory English as well. They have about 3 hours or so a week since grade 7. My opinion its down to rote learning and no critical thinking in education because its the communist system.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:10
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4 Corners did a story on this back in April.quote:As Federal Government funding for universities has declined, Vice-Chancellors have been forced to look elsewhere to fill the void.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:11
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It's got nothing to do with communism. East Asian education has been like that since long before Marx was born and it's similar in non-communist countries.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:13
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They don't do any hard subjects either if they can avoid it, so I have no idea what they are hoping to get out of it. There was not even 10 students who graduated in my year for mathematics and not even one was international. But if you were taking my economics class I had to tutor, there was 30 students for each postgrad to baby sit. Which is way too many for a university class. And it was pretty much as described, I had no input when it came to plagiarism - which was basically ignored. Actually the tutorials were a waste of time for everyone involved, since economics can be regurgitated out of Wikipedia to teach students magical gobbledigook without forcing people who can't read or speak English to participate in discussions.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:22
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open24hours posted:It's got nothing to do with communism. East Asian education has been like that since long before Marx was born and it's similar in non-communist countries. The ancient Chinese (and their influenced East Asian states) invented standardised tests, which were pretty much memorizing stuff.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:36
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Ahh Yes posted:They don't do any hard subjects either if they can avoid it, so I have no idea what they are hoping to get out of it. Much like here, apart from specialised jobs (eg engineering, medicine, further academia (lmao have fun)) it doesn't matter what your degree is in, you just need to have one to prove you have ~higher order thinking capabilities~ or whatever the term is they're using to justify worthless degrees to students and businesses alike these days. And as mentioned given local universities in eg China are worthless, getting any degree in a prestigious Australian Uni theoretically shows that you're a well-rounded, intelligent individually (though in reality it just shows that your parents are rich).
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Oct 19, 2015 06:43
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I was mates with a Bruneian bloke. For those who don't know, their government pays for their degrees and gives them insane allowances, which he used to pay for every single one of his assignments throughout his degree.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:50
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I've seen ads in the toilets at uni offering to do assignments for people. The sooner exams become worth 70% of the final grade the better.
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Oct 19, 2015 06:59
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Ahh Yes posted:They don't do any hard subjects either if they can avoid it, so I have no idea what they are hoping to get out of it. Cool way to make generalisations based on race. Of my graduating university physics class approx 50% were overseas students. The top of our class was a Chinese dude and Russian dude.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:03
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gay picnic defence posted:I've seen ads in the toilets at uni offering to do assignments for people. The sooner exams become worth 70% of the final grade the better. They are in plenty of science subjects already, but unfortunately exams are also pretty limited in what they can test.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:04
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open24hours posted:It's got nothing to do with communism. East Asian education has been like that since long before Marx was born and it's similar in non-communist countries. Yeah its bull. Rote learning is thanks to the English education system the colonials left behind, along with all the associated laws and morals and so on.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:05
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hooman posted:Cool way to make generalisations based on race. You let the commies win. Traitor.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:05
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Depending on the class size and the topic we had some pretty creative ways of doing assessments. Finance had this online portal with multiple tests, one for each week. The tests were pretty much all finance maths, a few dozen questions per week, and you could take the tests an unlimited number of times. The only limit was therefore your own effort versus the time you dedicated to getting it 100% right. A few weeks in, "getting it perfect" was substituted for "getting it mostly there", due to the time commitment. Each of the questions was unique during every run, different numbers and permutations of the formulas, so the end result of spending that much time on it was that you got pretty loving good at finance math. You also ended up hating the subject and im pretty sure the lecturer too. Another one used a series of three tests online over the weekend and they were worded in such a way that you couldn't get anywhere more than 50% unless you either guessed really well, or had read the accompanying textbook. 60% of the questions in each test were purely finishing the sentence of some passage in the textbook, the rest were analytical. I'm of the view that if lecturers and teachers are focused on group assignments to deliver learning, they could facilitate the process by helping the groups plan, execute and be accountable as a team and individuals. One way to do this would be for groups to form in week 1 and by week 2 have a fleshed out plan of execution submitted to the lecturer on roles, responsibilites, timelines, etc. This way by the time the assignment is submitted, it is easier to track who has lifted their weight and there would be less complaints from individuals, and the lecturers don't have to worry so much about marking dozens (hundreds?) of individual assignments.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:10
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Les Affaires posted:
One of the best group assignments I've had to do (and also one where I did nearly all of the work) was where the lecturer got the groups to appoint a leader whose job it was to send her weekly updates. So each week I could let her know what I'd done and that I hadn't seen or heard from the other two, and when the time came to submit the others might have just scraped a pass while I got an A. That was in a prestigious course though, I don't think any of the generic business courses would go to that much effort.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:25
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gay picnic defence posted:The sooner exams become worth 70% of the final grade the better. Ah yes, the thing we explicitly moved away from to arrive at the current model. Doctor Spaceman posted:They are in plenty of science subjects already, but unfortunately exams are also pretty limited in what they can test.  The more marks a single piece of assessment is worth the worse the subject is because neither the students nor the lecturer get an understanding for the relative strengths and weaknesses of the cohort lie. There's no point in an exam everyone does poorly on because a lot of marks depended on a part of the course that was taught poorly/in a confusing way
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Oct 19, 2015 07:25
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BBJoey posted:Ah yes, the thing we explicitly moved away from to arrive at the current model. There's also no point in assessing assignments if a non insignificant portion of the class are paying someone to do it for them. It basically leaves exams and presentations, unless they can find a way to weed out the cheats.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:28
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hooman posted:This is quite literally race baiting because this issue isn't to do with international students, it's to do with lovely students. International students do not have a monopoly on being lovely students. The best group member I've ever worked with was an international and the worst was Australian. Anecdote =/= evidence. This. I'm an ESL teacher. I work predominantly with Chinese students, but I see a pretty wide cross section. There's no culture I've come across where it's acceptable to just print out someone else's work and hand it in with your name on it. The students who do that do it because they're lazy shits, not because they're from a particular country or cultural background. Group work has its place but I don't want to get into a huge pedagogical rant. If you guys really want me to explain why it's (supposed to be) used and its (intended) purpose, then I will, but the short version is that it totally has its place, and creating groups with mixed ability levels is The Right Way to do it.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:31
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gay picnic defence posted:There's also no point in assessing assignments if a non insignificant portion of the class are paying someone to do it for them. It basically leaves exams and presentations, unless they can find a way to weed out the cheats. Or address the reason/need for cheating. Maybe it's just teaching us valuable lessons about capitalism: Farming out work to others to utilise their skills to empower your results pays dividends. The people with the most money have the biggest advantages.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:33
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Remember last year at Sydney uni, they had a law exam worth 100% which I know is common. But it had students overtly cheating in it, I think because of a fire alarm and they had to sit it again. Then students again complained about cheating, but I don't know what happened. My brother doing postgrad stuff with surveyor(ing?), has to do 5 long oral examinations, I think this is a good way to go for most subjects outside of highly mathematical based subjects. But everything done by surveyors in NSW is underwritten by the state government, so they have a pretty good incentive not to pass gently caress ups. Although the odd bridge is still built in the wrong place every now and then.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:40
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gay picnic defence posted:There's also no point in assessing assignments if a non insignificant portion of the class are paying someone to do it for them. It basically leaves exams and presentations, unless they can find a way to weed out the cheats.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:40
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gay picnic defence posted:I've seen ads in the toilets at uni offering to do assignments for people. The sooner exams become worth 70% of the final grade the better. I see these loving things hidden everywhere, and I have no idea what they're advertising because they're written in other languages. But then I see the email address on them as something like "assignmentsforyou@gmail.com" and then I am angry and sad.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:47
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BBJoey posted:Yeah but do we know that a non-insignificant portion of University classes are paying people to do assignments? Does it even matter if International students who plagiarise/perform poorly are given a pass regardless? Nearly all of my stats class paid people to do their two assignments. If we're going to let people pass regardless of cheating, why not just save them the hard work and give them a degree for $60,000?
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Oct 19, 2015 07:51
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Nothing like keeping your priorities straight when you're spending taxpayer money...quote:Australia likely spent more than $130,000 chartering an RAAF jet to fly pregnant Somali refugee Abyan back to Nauru, government contracts indicate. http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/oct/19/australia-spent-130000-on-raaf-jet-to-fly-pregnant-somali-refugee-to-nauru
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Oct 19, 2015 07:54
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gay picnic defence posted:why not just save them the hard work and give them a degree for $60,000? This is the Bond uni motto, isn't it?
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Oct 19, 2015 07:55
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I was generally pretty lucky with group work and got productive people who all pulled their weight (and some were international students ). The one exception was a group in second year where two of the members were completely braindead locals who didn't do anything but as we submitted the assignment the other decent member and I went to the lecturer and complained and both of them were failed for the assignment and we got decent marks for what we'd done. The two fuckwits complained and we all had a meeting where the lecturer agreed to give them the group marks if they were able to explain what we'd done as an assignment. They couldn't and it was glorious when he told them they were still failing.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:59
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Also can I make a small aside about racism? Because I think there's a bit of confusion about what I'm talking about when I say it. There's two kinds of racism, there's internal racism which I'll call racism and external racism which I'll call being Bolt. Everyone is a racist. Everyone will make snap judgements of people based on their race based on their experience of people of that race. Just the same as you will do with age, gender, clothing, weight, height etc. etc. etc. This is unavoidable and human, we all do it. This is a lovely thing to do but is part of all of us. Boltism is when you make those internal judgements and read them as truth. Being Bolt is taking those truths and projecting them. Being Bolt is blaming people because of their race rather than understanding that some things cross racial boundaries and there are other factors at play. I might have a racist reaction to a Carthaginian (a no longer existing group but used as an example) and want to cross the street to avoid him because in my subconscious I have an association with male Carthaginians and violence. That's my racist reaction. That's me making a judgement based on race. When I act on that racist reaction to that individual's detriment (eg, crossing the street to avoid, calling the police, running away, screaming carthiginian slurs to scare him off) I'm being a boltist because I'm not allowing that person to be an individual person who should be judged based on their own merits rather than on the merits of the members of their race I have experience with. Boltism is also seeing something that you see as wrong in society and rather than looking at an underlying cause taking a particular race and saying "It's their fault, look at the bad thing they are doing, they are bad." So will you have a reaction to international students based on your personal experience of international students? Yes. Is it ok to project your internal bias onto an individual international student? No. That's being Bolt. Is it ok to characterise a bad outcome of a poo poo system on a moral failing of a particular race while blindly ignoring the fact that this isn't a function of race? No. That's being Bolt. gay picnic defence posted:Nearly all of my stats class paid people to do their two assignments. So we agree that degrees are mostly a financial barrier and training for most professions would be better performed on the job? Also it's not just international students who cheat through uni. Again this is a lovely student thing, not an international student thing.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:59
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gay picnic defence posted:The sooner exams become worth 70% of the final grade the better. This happened at law school and it owns. The faculty are remarkably open about telling people to get hosed if they don't like as well, passive aggressively suggesting people may be entering the wrong profession.
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Oct 19, 2015 08:08
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