|
Chuck Boone posted:This is important because, again, Mendoza is the head of Polar, the only major company I can name that is still operating and producing food in Venezuela. The PSUV has had it in for Mendoza for a while, and there have been whispers now and then that the expropriation of Polar was coming. Not only that but they have ben philantropist since their early days, own every brand that Venezuelans love, and fund a good deal of social works in the country. Basically Guiness to Irish folks, if my really limited understanding of irish culture after three days partying with them in Dublin is correct.
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 16:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 14:51 |
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:Don't forget massive amounts of theft and corruption. Many of the price controls are basically a way to subsidize smuggling by the military. There's also a lot of evidence that the largest drug cartel in Venezuela is basically a subsection of the military. If I remember correctly, Chavez's kids aren't doing too poorly, either. Don't have a link handy because I'm on my phone, but Maria Gabriela Chávez lived in the presidential palace with full allowance and privileges until very recently. In the end, the only thing that got her to move out was being appointed alternate ambassador to the United Nations, so she probably spends most of her time in El Imperio now. Also, a PSUV-headed National Assembly commission found last year that at least 20 billion dollars were embezzled in a two year period from the currency exchange system, which was at the time called CADIVI. The PSUV is in power only to enrich itself.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 16:40
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:. In Venezuela, there is no opposition: only counter-revolution This is what I've been saying in this thread -- when the government makes such statements as the above, violence is inevitable. They have no one but themselves to blame when they prohibit the concept of peaceful/democratic opposition itself. Laphroaig posted:Chavez's legacy is successfully raising the living standards of many of the very poorest in the country. However, that rise has come at many real costs to the fabric of Venezuelan society - crime, corruption, cronyism, the destruction of industry and enterprise, etc. These are both inseparable parts of the history of the PSUV. For what it's worth, Venezuela currently ranks last, or ahead of only Haiti and El Salvador, on every quality of life metric for Western Hemisphere countries. Chavez came to office at a time when worldwide standards of living were about to skyrocket, and essentially held Venezuela back from fully participating in a global trend. If Venezuela had improved since 1998 as much as Peru, Colombia, Panama, etc the situation would be far better. The fact that it was almost impossible not to have your life get better from 1998-2008 and the oil boom disguised how harmful Chavismo really was. Now we're seeing it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 16:51
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:Don't forget massive amounts of theft and corruption. Many of the price controls are basically a way to subsidize smuggling by the military. There's also a lot of evidence that the largest drug cartel in Venezuela is basically a subsection of the military. If I remember correctly, Chavez's kids aren't doing too poorly, either. That is part of it, but that said, major outflows are clear from an economic standpoint and just not a lot about the current policy makes sense from either a right or left view. The entire way the PSUV manages the currency and the broader economy just doesn't work (and I don't actually reflects that much on "socialism" as a broader ideology). Laphroaig posted:Do you want to take a deep breath and re-write that post dude? It hurts to try and read it in a single sitting. I think I understand your general argument - that certain things could be adjusted and fixed, and it isn't really a left-right issue except that the PSUV has chosen to frame those things as one. Sorry, I am exhausted. That said, it is unclear exactly what the country will do in the future otherwise, the over-reliance on oil isn't just a PSUV issue even if they continued to put all their eggs in one basket. The new government can get rid of the price controls, request IMF assistance and then cut government spending to the bone but it is still not clear where Venezuela is going to go forward. In all likelihood, it would still be better of course. However, how did the PSUV get in power in the first place? Even if the PSUV disappeared are the problems for Venezuela necessarily over? Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Oct 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 16:54
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Even if the PSUV disappeared are the problems for Venezuela necessarily over? No, they're not. But when your house is on fire you don't call on the arsonist for help.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 17:01
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:No, they're not. But when your house is on fire you don't call on the arsonist for help. The broader question is there still a place for the Venezuelan left at this point? Maybe it is damned for eternity? That said, it is probably not the thread to ask those questions or really much of any of them. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Oct 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
A Google search reveals something called the "Red Flag Party" as part of the Venezuelan opposition. http://bandera-roja.blogspot.com/ It's fairly weird to see Marxist-style rhetoric used to attack the PDVSA. (forgive the Google translate babble) quote:The conviction Leopoldo Lopez was expected and confirms the fascist and dictatorial nature of the regime in power in Venezuela. As we have been saying, facing a regime of this nature requires lifting a unit of real, which has the north the defeat of the dictatorship and that this not only attend purely electoral matters but struggle every day with the suffering people The people fighting injustice, and, fundamentally, raise a program of national unity to rebuild Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:
Hausmann engineered the austerity measures that led to the Caracozo uprising in which 3,000 Venezuelans died, that man has blood on his hands, and I think Venezuelans would be right to be outraged over a major company advocating economic policies that actively gently caress over the poor. As difficult as things are with low oil prices and currency manipulation, things would be far worse with IMF economic shock therapy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2015 23:19
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy posted:Hausmann engineered the austerity measures that led to the Caracozo uprising in which 3,000 Venezuelans died, that man has blood on his hands, and I think Venezuelans would be right to be outraged over a major company advocating economic policies that actively gently caress over the poor. As difficult as things are with low oil prices and currency manipulation, things would be far worse with IMF economic shock therapy. Eh pick your poison at this point, the shortages that are being experienced are fundamental and from most reports are seriously affecting the quality of living. That said, shock therapy can also be devastating (looking at the former Soviet Union) but there really isn't any way path out from the current supply/currency crisis without serious revaluation and big adjustments in supply. Ultimately, the government can't afford to buy products abroad, put them in stores at a small fraction of their real costs and take the hit. If anything it isn't that much of a class issue either because prices and thus government spending isn't really targeted anywhere. I really doubt it is wrecking either, it is clear there is an alarming gap which prices and the real value of the Bolivar that is going to cause "grey market" overbuying and re-selling. There isn't any good options at this point but the price control system is going to be scrapped one way another, if the PSUV doesn't do it then the opposition will. If the PSUV can restart domestic production (one way or another) and cut back the printing they have been doing, then they could at least slow the decline the country is experiencing. (Also near total fuel subsidies really need to go as well. It is a "birth right" that is killing the country.) If they can stabilize themselves, then they might be able to refocus their attention on supporting the poor directly and avoid an IMF spiral. One big issue with Venezuela is so much of the spending is effectively diffuse (due prices on fuel and so many products being so low) it is not exactly whom they are helping because universal cheap fuel/goods isn't exactly closing the distance between classes that much especially when the government can't afford to keep them on shelves. The situation has gotten to the point that the opposition could hold own to power for a while if they more or less just readjusted prices and issued a new currency. I don't know what would happen next though, especially if the IMF got involved. In many ways the Soviets had the same issue, but the Soviet Union due to its command economy could keep at least some consumer production going. Nevertheless, while prices in the Soviet Union were quite low and there were often sever shortages, the Soviets had domestic production to rely on. Also, I think Soviet pricing was much closer to market levels than Venezuela at this point. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Oct 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 00:10
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy's modus operandi: 1) Post PUSV propaganda 2) When called on his bullshit, whine about the USA, as though some imaginary moral failing on their part absolves the PUSV of their crimes. 3) Repeat ad nauseam.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 08:05
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Even if the PSUV disappeared are the problems for Venezuela necessarily over? Chavez basically separated the country in two currents that are blood enemies to each other. This won't change until the Venezuelans are a complete new generation that didn't live trough this quiet civil war. I'm not prone to hold grudges, but I know plenty of people from both sides of the spectrum that downright demonize the other. Only when that hatchet is well buried can Chavism be a normal political ideology (or, I hope, completely disappear) instead of one side of a bloody conflict. I think the absolute worse part of that schism created by Chavism is that it exacerbated every racial and class issue. I don't remember wealth and much less race being such a problem growing up, but in the last years it has most definitely taken a wrong turn in those regards. Insecurity is another issue that any Venezuelan suffers from. There's crime everywhere, but it's really hard to imagine the atmosphere in Caracas as you walk on the street unless you've lived it. It's a constant pressure in the back of your neck that forces you keep your eyes peeled, judging everyone, wondering if this guy has a gun, if that other guy is looking at you funny, if that woman that asked you about the time just wanted to value your watch or cell phone. When I moved to Madrid, I went through an adaptation period that must've seemed pretty funny to an outsider. Hell, I'm still a lot more on edge in any situation than my Spanish friends. It's like being released from prison after a long time and you try to shake off all the defensive paranoia you've cultivated.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 08:31
|
|
|
Hugoon Chavez posted:
(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 13:24
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy posted:I'm sure whites who grew up in the Jim Crow south who remember fondly when African Americans "knew their place" felt the same way.  And I'm sure you know me well enough to call me a racist. Maybe you are the one who should know your place and just  .
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 13:38
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy is consistently trolling the thread and the thread is consistently falling for it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 13:45
|
|
|
-Troika- posted:Borneo Jimmy's modus operandi: You could have waited until next page at least, Jimmy boy... For content, we Peruvians had a small problem with inflation in the late 80's (four digit annual inflation is normal, right guys... Guys...?) That got corrected rather overnight by Fujimori's government in the early 90's (by using the formula his opponent proposed and he would never use because it would ruin the country); this small correction caused much of the middle class to go into poverty or flee the country and the poor to go into extreme poverty, but it got the country out of the hole, it took more or less 5 years to get back on track and we still are worst off than we were at the late 70's but not by much. So you see, there is a silver lining, but you have to sacrifice pretty much a generation's dreams before things get better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 13:46
|
|
|
Hugoon Chavez posted:
Thank you confirming that pretty much all people whining about Maduro and Chavez are white, upper-class gusanos. Please tell me how the poor need to stop being so envious of the wealthy who've worked hard to inherit their fortunes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 13:52
|
|
|
zocio posted:You could have waited until next page at least, Jimmy boy... It more or less illustrates the lack of easy choices here, the Fujishock was quite brutal and to be honest, Venezuela may be even less unified politically than Peru. The Shining Path was a big issue obviously, but they were still rather localized compared to societal divisions across Venezuelan society. Something needs to be done but shock therapy has deserves the reputation has developed. Also to be honest, if the the same thing that happened in Peru than Venezuela, I doubt the PSUV and the military would sit on the sidelines either. So yes, the real ugliness is yet to come. Ultimately, the solution may be simply to issue a revaluation, radically readjust price control but not go the full extent and suddenness of shock therapy. That said, I don't know if there is really the political will for compromise by either side at this point especially with tensions so high. One question: exactly how far off were price controls compared to inflation in Peru? Was there a supply shortage like Venezuela? Borneo Jimmy posted:Thank you confirming that pretty much all people whining about Maduro and Chavez are white, upper-class gusanos. Please tell me how the poor need to stop being so envious of the wealthy who've worked hard to inherit their fortunes. Aren't a larger percentage of working class Venezuelans becoming skeptical even if it is just from deteriorating conditions? It may very well be that upper class/upper middle class Venezuelans have their own axe to grind, but at the same time most evidence is that living conditions are getting worse fast for most people. At the end of the day it is a bread and butter issue for most people. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Oct 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 14:01
|
|
|
zocio posted:You could have waited until next page at least, Jimmy boy... Back in those days, pleeeenty of peruvians migrated to Venezuela (like my step-grandfather), and now more than a few Venezuelans are moving to Peru! It's the cycle of
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 14:45
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:On the topic of free and fair elections: That's just precious. Imagine the sort of brutality Maduro would visit on many of his American and European defenders if they lived in Venezuela and used the rhetoric they use about their own governments to criticize Maduro. Education is a weapon? Better imprison all the teachers! gently caress, Maduro would probably draw and quarter Henry Giroux. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 15:18
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:
Price controls were very high, at the time of the Fujishock (nice to see that term it's not only used here) the basic foodstuffs like sugar, rice, milk and meat had on average 2/3rds of their real value subsidized and fuel had almost 97% of it's value subsidized (boy, are you Venezuelans gonna have some fun with that one). As for supply shortages, of course there were, as in any economy that has both a heavy price controls and hyperinflation; my earlyest memories of going out with my mom involve hour+ lines to buy milk (for the whole month, because you never knew if tomorrow or next week there was gonna be a shortage; but we never did (in my middle class toddler at the time, point of view) reach the levels Venezuela is enduring right now, because most of the production was in private hands and despite what the PSUV might say in that regard an "economic war" waged by the oligarchy by stopping production is unprofitable. Wikipedia link of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Peru#From_Inflation_to_Hyperinflation.2C_1988_-_1990
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 16:47
|
|
|
zocio posted:Price controls were very high, at the time of the Fujishock (nice to see that term it's not only used here) the basic foodstuffs like sugar, rice, milk and meat had on average 2/3rds of their real value subsidized and fuel had almost 97% of it's value subsidized (boy, are you Venezuelans gonna have some fun with that one). Yeah, it would be interesting to do a comparable study of price controls during both periods, specifically just how much cheaper were their declared value versus the street value. A lot of official prices I hear in Venezuela are effectively about 1/10th their effective price outside the country. It is easy to see why there is going to be 3 hour lines and the country is running such a massive deficit. Basically, the entire revenue stream of the country is going to be geared at a certain point to provide ridiculous discounts. Also, it incentives people to wait in 3 hour lines and buy every thing they can touch if only to resell at a profit. Also, to be clear, I think remaining production is still in private hands in Venezuela because of Polar, some factories were nationalized but ultimately what Venezuela has been doing is subsidizing imports. Basically, they are paying in cash for goods from outside and then re-selling them at a fraction of the price inside the country. Polar is still manufacturing goods (somehow) but it is a bit of a question what happens next. Ultimately, Venezuela really doesn't have Soviet style central planning or controlled wages, just price controls and some public stores. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Oct 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 17:11
|
|
|
Discussion has moved quickly so I'm a bit out of the loop, but here's a couple of issues: 1) Ardennes, you asked (and someone else addressed) the question, "Does socialism have a future in Venezuela?" As someone else pointed out, leftist parties have become more willing to voice their discontent with the PSUV since things really started heading downhill last year. A prominent example is that of the Marea Socialista party, the leader of which (a man named Nicmer Evans) has been an outspoken leftist critic of the PSUV. We've also heard from big figures in the early years of the Chavez presidency (namely Jorge Giordani and Luis Miquilena) come out in strong opposition to Maduro and chavismo in general, with Miquilena calling Chavez a "phony" in a recent interview. I guess the answer to your question - and my apologies if it's already been addressed - is that whether socialism has a future in Venezuela depends on how quickly and thoroughly it can distance itself from the flaming carcass of the PSUV. 2) I want to distance Mendoza's conversation with Hausmann regarding IMF intervention away from the real policy question of whether or not the opposition should (or is considering to) seek the IMF in a post-PSUV scenario. As far as I know no one in the opposition has suggested this, and to take a private citizen's conversation on hypothetical scenarios as proof that an IMF deal is in the works is insane. Granted that Mendoza occupies a special position given his influential position as a business leader, to tie his (again) private conversation on economics with some kind of hidden plan by the opposition to sell the country to the IMF is as desperate a move as I've seen the PSUV take. 3) Someone brought up the issue of diminishing support for the PSUV among its base. Take a look at the results of the survey I posted in the second post in this thread. That poll is the latest in a trend that has seen PSUV support erode dramatically since the scarcity crisis started hitting the country hard last year. My mantra on this issue is: if you accept the fact that Venezuela is suffering from a crisis of scarcity, inflation and insecurity, you must accept that these issues affect the poor the most. I think we've reached a tipping point where the traditional PSUV supporters are rightly asking themselves, "You got us into this mess, and yet you're asking for us to vote for you again?"
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 17:51
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy posted:Thank you confirming that pretty much all people whining about Maduro and Chavez are white, upper-class gusanos. Please tell me how the poor need to stop being so envious of the wealthy who've worked hard to inherit their fortunes. This was the argument of the American leftist idiots years ago. Most of them had the good sense to leave when it became clear that they were horribly wrong. Why are you such human poo poo that, as an American who's uninvolved in the situation, you'd accuse people who've directly said what they and their families live under of being bourgeoisie? Do you lack that much self awareness? What could possibly motivate you to keep this up when it's clear you're wrong, and, on some level, given your refusal to respond beyond spouting the same tired lies or ad hominem insults, you know you're wrong? This thread has been consistently good and informative for years, aside from your stain. I know it's dumb to respond to Borneo Jimmy, but I can always hope someday he'll have the good taste to gently caress off back to whatever hole he crawled out of.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 19:31
|
|
|
Some economic news that are relevant(ish) to the current discussion:
In other news, the state of exception in six municipalities in Tachira state will be extended for two months, carrying it beyond the December 6 parliamentary elections. Since the state of exception suspends a number of civil liberties (including the freedom of assembly, and protest; it also allows for wiretapping and warrantless searches) , there are serious concerns that it could interfere with the election process in the region. Also, Diosdado Cabello said earlier today that a PSUV National Assembly deputy was going to file the formal complaint before the Public Ministry. Once before the Public Ministry, the Attorney General will decide if/what charges will be laid. I don't have a link handy, but just a few months ago the government expropriated the biggest food distribution center in Caracas at La Yaguara to build some apartments. The center held warehouses for Polar and Pepsi, among other companies. The PSUV has had it in for Polar for a while, blaming them for shortages and whatnot in what is a clear attempt at getting their hands on the company. The case is so absurd that it's difficult to make sense of it at all. What the PSUV is saying is that it's illegal for you to have a private conversation about a topic they don't like. Hell, all of us here in this forum are guilty of that 
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
The extension is absolutely intended to gently caress with the elections.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 21:25
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Ultimately, Venezuela really doesn't have Soviet style central planning or controlled wages, just price controls and some public stores. They need to get on this sharpish but they're too trot to.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 21:33
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:2) I want to distance Mendoza's conversation with Hausmann regarding IMF intervention away from the real policy question of whether or not the opposition should (or is considering to) seek the IMF in a post-PSUV scenario. As far as I know no one in the opposition has suggested this, and to take a private citizen's conversation on hypothetical scenarios as proof that an IMF deal is in the works is insane. Granted that Mendoza occupies a special position given his influential position as a business leader, to tie his (again) private conversation on economics with some kind of hidden plan by the opposition to sell the country to the IMF is as desperate a move as I've seen the PSUV take. Well just to put in in perspective here's what they were saying quote:In the audio, which is dominated by Hausman, the ex-minister reveals that he is a longterm friend of the IMF’s Vice-president for the Western Hemisphere, who has asked him to go to the organisation to “talk about Venezuela”. He explains that the fund is “worried” that it will have to “intervene” in the country. Sounds like way more than a private policy discussion. If audio leaked of an American CEO strategizing how to overthrow the American government to forcibly implement a ultra-conservative economic plan that would abolish what's left of the American social safety net, there would be widespread outrage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2015 23:32
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:They need to get on this sharpish but they're too trot to. Even in a hypothetical situation, they would seen some cash for investment in production and even then redo their pricing structure. The Soviets actually knew pricing was an issue, but there was a pretty wide divide in the 1960s/1970s about what to do about it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 00:01
|
|
|
-Troika- posted:The extension is absolutely intended to gently caress with the elections. Most certainly. That's the stance the opposition has taken on the issue as well. The thing to watch now is whether Maduro decides to extend the states of exception in the other ~19-20 other affected municipalities, and whether he extends it to other municipalities in the country. The grenade attacks seem like the most likely excuse the PSUV could use to start declaring other states of emergency, but who knows. Borneo Jimmy posted:Sounds like way more than a private policy discussion. It really doesn't, Jimmy. The only reason you say that is because that's what Venezuelanalysis says and you appear to be incapable of critical thought. Here's the full audio of the call as it appeared on Cabello's show for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU7dh_J89eI. If you're a Spanish speaker, listen to it. It's patently obvious that they're just talking hypotheticals. In what universe is this a rational statement to make? quote:The economist also assures Mendoza that he is committed to the “war in Venezuela” despite his absence, stating that “there is no exit for Venezuela without substantial international help,” appearing to reference the opposition’s violent street campaign to unseat the government last year, entitled La Salida (the exit). First of all, you don't have to speak Spanish to realize that when the big bad man says he's committed to the "war in Venezuela", he's laughing, because he's joking. No different than when I call my colleagues "camaradas". No one accuses me of being a Stalinist when I say that. Second, the only rational connection between the phrase "there's no exit in Venezuela..." and La Salida is the fact that they're the same word. It's really a pathetic attempt to draw a connection where there is none. It's like saying I support Donald Trump because we've both said "wall", and he wants to build walls to keep illegal immigrants out. ** Also, the article mistranslated a word when it said that Hausmann said, "... you receive a call from Obama or Holland". At 2:29, Hausmann clearly says "Olando", whereas the Spanish word for Holland is "Holanda". Even the text that aired on Diosdado's show reads "Olando". I don't know who this is in reference to, but the fact that the article doesn't seem to care is evidence of the shoddy piece that it is. I dare you to take off your "I accept without question whatever the PSUV and Venezuelanalysis say" glasses for a second. Why would the IMF engage in negotiations with a private citizen through Hausmann? Mendoza's not even running for office. Where's the tape with Torrealba and Machado and Capriles talking to the IMF? Why would the IMF care what someone other than the Venezuelan government say? If I went to my local bank and asked for a $10,000 loan on behalf of the government of Canada, they'd look at me like I was nuts. Moreover, for all the talk of the "economic war", haven't you asked yourself why no one has ever clearly explained what it is? Any rational person can tell you in a handful of points how PSUV policies have led directly to the situation that the country is in now. Did the "economic war" force Venezuela to rely on oil for 95%+ of its foreign income? Did the "economic war" force the government to expropriate private businesses over the past 15+ years and mismanage them to the point that the vast majority of Venezuela's food is imported? Did the "economic war" force the PSUV to embezzle $20 billion dollars meant for imports between 2011-2013? **EDIT: Perhaps a better analogy that more accurately captures the absurdity of linking two completly unrelated ideas only because they share a common word is the following sentence: quote:The economist also assures Mendoza that he is committed to the “war in Venezuela” despite his absence, stating that “there is no solution for Venezuela's problems without substantial international help,” appearing to reference Nazi Germany's plan to exterminate the Jewish population in Europe through genocide, entitled "The Final Solution". Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Oct 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 01:35
|
|
|
Yesterday Maduro announced several economic measures and in a rare moment of clarity admitted that price controls had failed the Revolution. Their solution? To double down on price controls. There's gonna be a new taskforce to bring every single item for sale at the prices they determine in order to manufacture a false sense of plenty before the elections. Up until now —at least in the largest cities— you could find small grocery stores, butchers, etc. that sold stuff at unregulated prices but managed to keep healthy stocks (of miscellaneous poo poo at least, I haven't seen pasta, rice or beans in a while), thus alleviating the pressure a bit by catering to those that could afford to pay extra in exchange for not doing lines. What this means is that the government is planning to force them to liquidate their inventories, with no hope of being able to restock them since they will have to sell at artificially low prices. If you'll excuse me, I'll be stocking up on canned sardines.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 13:58
|
|
|
Labradoodle posted:Yesterday Maduro announced several economic measures and in a rare moment of clarity admitted that price controls had failed the Revolution. Goodbye Hallacas. The reselling (bachaqueo) is going to be even more rampant now, then. I wonder if there's really going to be a false sense of plenty, or if that's just going to bring the problem to light more clearly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 14:22
|
|
|
Labradoodle posted:Yesterday Maduro announced several economic measures and in a rare moment of clarity admitted that price controls had failed the Revolution. Awesome! Strict enforcement of price controls is just what the doctor ordered. The pictures below are from two supermarkets, one in Zulia state somewhere and the other in Caracas, taken this morning. The supermarkets are both from the state-owned Bicentenario chains, which sells subsidized products. From the Bicentenario del Zulia:     From the Bicentenario de Parque Central in Caracas:  Labradoodle posted:Up until now —at least in the largest cities— you could find small grocery stores, butchers, etc. that sold stuff at unregulated prices but managed to keep healthy stocks (of miscellaneous poo poo at least, I haven't seen pasta, rice or beans in a while), thus alleviating the pressure a bit by catering to those that could afford to pay extra in exchange for not doing lines. What this means is that the government is planning to force them to liquidate their inventories, with no hope of being able to restock them since they will have to sell at artificially low prices. My grandmother who lives in Valencia told us yesterday that "black beans are like caviar" and that she hasn't seen lentils and pasta in a while, either. A relative who works in a country in the region has found a way to send them food via mail more or less reliably. My grandmother doesn't usually tell us how bad things are down there, but I know from keeping up with this on a daily basis that she must be really struggling. Sometimes I get really emotional when I see videos of people lining up for hours or fighting for scraps at supermarkets and I think about my grandmother having to do that. I'm not sure if I told this story already, but my father was in Venezuela last year for a funeral. He stayed in Caracas for a week and a half. He said that something that really shocked him was that he never ate anything fresh there because the only food his sister had at home was whatever canned goods she'd managed to stock up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 15:28
|
|
|
I'm starting to wonder if there's going to be a famine soon in Venezuela. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 15:37
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:My grandmother doesn't usually tell us how bad things are down there, but I know from keeping up with this on a daily basis that she must be really struggling. Sometimes I get really emotional when I see videos of people lining up for hours or fighting for scraps at supermarkets and I think about my grandmother having to do that. Remember -- this is the way communists think your grandmother ought to live. If you disagree you are a racist who should be imprisoned.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 16:04
|
|
|
-Troika- posted:I'm starting to wonder if there's going to be a famine soon in Venezuela. Some of the more sensationalist news outlets I follow have been warning of a famine for a bit. I don't really know anything about "famine dynamics" or whatever the proper name for the study of famines is. Still, you don't have to experience a textbook definition of a famine to feel the negative effects of malnutrition, etc. The price of the nutritious food basket is many times the minimum wage. I don't have a link handy, but the last measure I saw just 2-3 weeks ago placed it at something like 6-7 minimum monthly wages. In other words, you'd have to save 100% of your monthly minimum wage for seven months to have enough money to buy a month's worth of the base level of nutrition you should be getting from you food. Also, on the discussion of socialism without the PSUV/socialism after the PSUV in Venezuela: I'm not sure if this article was posted here, but I seem to remember some discussion on Bracci's response to it. Anyway, this article was written by Roland Denis, a leftist Chavez supporter who decided that the PSUV killed chavismo. The article is called "Adios al Chavismo" [Goodbye to Chavismo] and originally appeared on Aporrea.org, a website that has historically been pro-PSUV. The original version in Spanish is here, and this is the English translation. M. Discordia posted:Remember -- this is the way communists think your grandmother ought to live. If you disagree you are a racist who should be imprisoned. The leftist in me shies away from equating what's happening in Venezuela with communism/socialism in general. In any case, the PSUV obviously has no problem with my grandmother living like that so long as they make an extra dollar.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 16:27
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:Sometimes I get really emotional when I see videos of people lining up for hours or fighting for scraps at supermarkets and I think about my grandmother having to do that. I feel you, man. Sometimes I feel really bad when I spend 20€ on a dumb videogame while knowing that my mom can't find, for instance, dog food without driving around the whole city. Of course, I can't really help in any way since it's extremely hard to send money to her, and even when I can, she still won't find the stuff she needs. My mom is "comfortably" mid class and she's still struggling, but my mother-in-law has a lot less money and we dig around for people to sell us Bolivares at least once every two months in order to help with common things, like replacing her door because two dudes entered the building and forced the doors of every apartment in order to rob them (last month), or my father-in-law needing money for heart pills. Chuck Boone posted:
I keep saying that this has got to stop being about ideology, because it isn't. Chavismo is not a "left-wing government", it's a wanna-be dictatorship and exploitation. Reaching conclusions using the Venezuelan government is akin to reaching conclusions using North Korea, they are very particular cases that must be studied as anomalies.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 16:47
|
|
|
once you discard the concept that high black-market prices and shortages are caused by speculative hoarding, there's remarkably little scope for populist thinking it's not really an optional part of the outlook, it's a cohesive and internally rational plank
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 03:54
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:They need to get on this sharpish but they're too trot to. If there's one Stalinist policy that would save Maduro's popularity it's more likely the one where he executed members of his own party en masse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 04:30
|
|
|
M. Discordia posted:Remember -- this is the way communists think your grandmother ought to live. If you disagree you are a racist who should be imprisoned. I have absolutely no love for communism (or neoliberalism, really) but I think it's pretty unfair to bunch Venezuela's current government (and mine as well, might as well) into "communism" or even socialism. It's socialism in name only when the elite lives in opulence thanks to all the stuff they take away from the common citizen while also outright mocking it by restricting its freedom and rights. I've seen a concerning trend in people who defend past and current Chavismo, where they think it's actual, honest-to-god, can't-be-improved-in-any-manner-whatsoever socialism, and they do so without obtaining any benefit whatsoever from it. No one should set the bar that low just because they agree in paper with your political ideas. Edit: quote:I keep saying that this has got to stop being about ideology, because it isn't. Chavismo is not a "left-wing government", it's a wanna-be dictatorship and exploitation. Reaching conclusions using the Venezuelan government is akin to reaching conclusions using North Korea, they are very particular cases that must be studied as anomalies. Yeah, this. Hugoon said it better  Hugoon Chavez posted:I feel you, man. Sometimes I feel really bad when I spend 20€ on a dumb videogame while knowing that my mom can't find, for instance, dog food without driving around the whole city. Rocket League is real good, don't feel bad!  On a more serious note, I see a lot of Venezuelan ads here in Argentina because I'm a DirecTV subscriber and it's really, really sad to see most of them. While they are basically the same as an Argentinian ad, in our case we can maybe say "hey, that's a little bit too idyllic" if you think about it. But when you contrast the current Venezuelan situation with all the happy people living in wonderfully clean streets lined with shops full of goods, it looks like something North Korea would make if the average North Korean had a TV. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 05:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 14:51 |
|
|
quote:I have absolutely no love for communism (or neoliberalism, really) but I think it's pretty unfair to bunch Venezuela's current government (and mine as well, might as well) into "communism" or even socialism. It's socialism in name only when the elite lives in opulence thanks to all the stuff they take away from the common citizen while also outright mocking it by restricting its freedom and rights.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 06:07
|
|
