|
XMNN posted:It's the only progressive, modern democracy in the Middle East. As long as you're defining progressive and modern as "the American South circa 1920", at least. Well the rest is europe around 1632. (Besides turkey which is Argentina in 1950).
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 17:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 03:50 |
|
|
Bear Retrieval Unit posted:"Hitler did nothing wrong" Thread title please.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 17:52
|
|
|
I really wish I could queue a ban for Bibi, but it's beyond my control. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 18:01
|
|
|
So I sort of have to stumble in here, in a daze over this latest thing Netanyahu said, and ask: is this politically survivable for him? I mean, it's essentially holocaust revisionism from the head of the Israeli state, which is a thing I never expected to see in my lifetime, and it seems like everyone in Israel itself is furious at him. It's even pissed off the Germans, who he's going to be visiting in mere days. Did he just set himself on fire, out of the blue, here, in his desperate attempt to continue whipping up hate for Arabs, or could he conceivably still survive this and serve out the rest of his term? (I sort of imagine the answer is "yes", but I have to imagine this is going to haunt him and make things fractious in his own party, never mind his coalition)
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
SpaceDrake posted:So I sort of have to stumble in here, in a daze over this latest thing Netanyahu said, and ask: is this politically survivable for him? I mean, it's essentially holocaust revisionism from the head of the Israeli state, which is a thing I never expected to see in my lifetime, and it seems like everyone in Israel itself is furious at him. It's even pissed off the Germans, who he's going to be visiting in mere days. He's bulletproof, he could call Arabs subhuman and nothing would happen.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 19:09
|
|
|
SpaceDrake posted:So I sort of have to stumble in here, in a daze over this latest thing Netanyahu said, and ask: is this politically survivable for him? He could run for Immortal Potentate of the Global Empire of Israel and he'd win. Israel is a really, really terrible place full of really, really terrible people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 19:22
|
|
|
SpaceDrake posted:So I sort of have to stumble in here, in a daze over this latest thing Netanyahu said, and ask: is this politically survivable for him? I mean, it's essentially holocaust revisionism from the head of the Israeli state, which is a thing I never expected to see in my lifetime, and it seems like everyone in Israel itself is furious at him. It's even pissed off the Germans, who he's going to be visiting in mere days. Netanyahu isn't going to be sunk by this. Hyperbolic comparisons to Hitler have a long and illustrious history in politics in or involving Israel, and nationalistic movements loving love being able to link current political rivals and enemies to the ancient ultimate enemy of their people even if it's just a conspiracy theory. The only real outcome of this is that when people make these comparisons against Israel, someone else will have to issue the offended response instead of Netanyahu. Besides, his revisionist statements fit very well with his current narrative of focusing on the evils of "incitement" and blaming the ongoing violence entirely on Facebook posts and mean things Abbas said (and therefore shifting responsibility and blame from the individual actors committing the attacks to the entire Palestinian society).
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 19:30
|
|
|
pathetic little tramp posted:He could run for Immortal Potentate of the Global Empire of Israel and he'd win. Israel is a really, really terrible place full of really, really terrible people. Has it ever been this bad though? I know Israeli attitudes toward Palestinians have always been terrible but somehow this feels even worse. The Israeli public has slid so far right and is so whipped up against Arabs that I could see this ending in a full blown civilian-on-civilian ethnic cleansing free-for-all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 19:53
|
|
|
Hell there are still Israelis who defend Baruch Goldstein because some of those 29 women and children he shot to death were totally planning to go out and do some terror that day guys. I used to think someday that the people of Israel and Palestine could get together and reject the violence of their governments, but at some point, I think we all have to realise that the Israeli people may just not be good people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 20:04
|
|
|
pathetic little tramp posted:Hell there are still Israelis who defend Baruch Goldstein because some of those 29 women and children he shot to death were totally planning to go out and do some terror that day guys. I used to think someday that the people of Israel and Palestine could get together and reject the violence of their governments, but at some point, I think we all have to realise that the Israeli people may just not be good people. I listened to a podcast last night about the assassination of Rabin and the convoluted conspiracy theories that took off afterward. That was pretty much the high water mark of the Israeli left/peace wing and it's just gotten progressively worse ever since. Now we have the Israeli PM indulging in holocaust revisionism purely to smear Palestinians further and some think even he isn't right wing enough. Also holy poo poo were the right wing settlers and pundits interviewed terrible, toxic people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
Palestinians were the main body of security at Auschwitz.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 20:20
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Palestinians were the main body of security at Auschwitz. Countdown to someone photoshopping a young Yaser Arafat shaking hands with Hitler.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 20:35
|
|
|
Rhesus Pieces posted:I listened to a podcast last night about the assassination of Rabin and the convoluted conspiracy theories that took off afterward. That was pretty much the high water mark of the Israeli left/peace wing and it's just gotten progressively worse ever since. Now we have the Israeli PM indulging in holocaust revisionism purely to smear Palestinians further and some think even he isn't right wing enough. Care to share some of those theories? Rabin's murder was pretty much the key event that got little young me out of the "But everyone wants peace and will be nice to each other in the end...right?" kid mindset. The fact that people would kill their own to keep a feud going was the thing that showed me how complex, messed up an bizarre human history ia and has always been.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 21:13
|
|
|
pathetic little tramp posted:at some point, I think we all have to realise that the Israeli people may just not be good people. I'm all for pointing out when Israelis do stupid things as part of a long-running occupation turning their society racist, but this really crosses the line into "guys, Jews are just not human, y'know" kinda rhetoric. Many Israelis ARE in fact good people and are responsible for reporting most of the outrages we're outraged about because they also want their society changed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 21:48
|
|
|
Lum_ posted:I'm all for pointing out when Israelis do stupid things as part of a long-running occupation turning their society racist, but this really crosses the line into "guys, Jews are just not human, y'know" kinda rhetoric. Certainly not anything approaching a majority, though, or none of these things would be happening.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 21:59
|
|
|
To be fair, I think americans are pretty awful too, and we're probably going to bring down the entire world's financial system in a few weeks because we're such trash, but on the other hand we aren't voting for a dude who tried to justify genocide by pretending his target did the holocaust so it's kind of a wash.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 22:02
|
|
|
pathetic little tramp posted:He could run for Immortal Potentate of the Global Empire of Israel and he'd win. Israel is a really, really terrible place full of really, really terrible people. Seriously, how are you and everyone agreeing with you on this not banned? Netanyahu won by a razor thin margin, with the center and left actually combining to win more seats, with Netanyahu essentially getting the first chance to form a government by the means of arm twisting and parliamentary procedure. The government has 61 seats in the Knesset and conceivably could fall at any time. If the Joint List could have swallowed their loving pride, Herzog could be PM today. Netanyahu is universally despised across the political spectrum in Israel, with the main reason he remains PM being that the other coalition partners hate each other even more than they hate him. There's an increasing amount of disgusting racism in Israel that is abominable and needs to be crushed out entirely. Unfortunately, that has been the norm on the Palestinian side for some time. That's what violence and nationalism does.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 22:14
|
|
|
A rocket was launched from #Gaza landed in an open area in southern #Israel. No injuries reported. Second rocket fired. Rocket fired from the Gaza Strip towards Southern Israel moments ago failed and exploded in Gaza, unknown of injuries yet. THE INTIFADA HAS COME WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Oct 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 22:18
|
|
|
Wow Israel and their hate of Palestine is going weird places.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 22:25
|
|
|
BattleMaster posted:Wow Israel and their hate of Palestine is going weird places. yeah apparently Palestine caused the black plague to kill jews. Palestine caused the german great depression.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 22:27
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Seriously, how are you and everyone agreeing with you on this not banned? Institutionalized racism and colonialism has been the norm of the Israeli state since its inception. Racist attitudes in its population as well. That is indeed what violence and nationalism does. Israel has never not been characterized by those two.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 22:28
|
|
|
Lum_ posted:I'm all for pointing out when Israelis do stupid things as part of a long-running occupation turning their society racist, but this really crosses the line into "guys, Jews are just not human, y'know" kinda rhetoric. When did I say they're not human? This is the problem when you point out things that really shouldn't be controversial in this thread, it immediately gets over-inflated by pearl-clutchers into this kind of anti-semite garbage. I never said they weren't human, I said they're not good people. The word I used, "people", specifically refers to humans so thanks for going into hysterics over it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:01
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:Care to share some of those theories? Here's the podcast. One theory is that Rabin engineered a fake assassination attempt on himself in order to make the Israeli right look bad. Somehow during the plot he had a stroke, and to "sell" the story those in the car with him shot him in the chest. It makes no loving sense, but a third of Israelis overall and over 50% of right-wingers don't believe the actual story.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:05
|
|
|
Israeli'vs moral character, paradoxically, shouldn't really take their opinion on the occupation of Palestine into question. I mean, someone who rejects it as immoral is a moral person and someone who salivates at the thought of dropping white phosphorus on Gazan children is an immoral person, but passive support, given the nature of hegemonic societies, can't really be condemned as immoral on a personal level without leading down to pure misanthropy or antisemitism. Even someone declaring the problem is that Palestinians have a sense of themselves as Palestinians, and peace will only come if Palestinian national identity is eradicated- well, given the environment, we can't condemn them too hard and remain moral persons ourselves.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:15
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Israeli'vs moral character, paradoxically, shouldn't really take their opinion on the occupation of Palestine into question. I mean, someone who rejects it as immoral is a moral person and someone who salivates at the thought of dropping white phosphorus on Gazan children is an immoral person, but passive support, given the nature of hegemonic societies, can't really be condemned as immoral on a personal level without leading down to pure misanthropy or antisemitism. Even someone declaring the problem is that Palestinians have a sense of themselves as Palestinians, and peace will only come if Palestinian national identity is eradicated- well, given the environment, we can't condemn them too hard and remain moral persons ourselves. hm no
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:27
|
|
|
Much like most white americans/canadians gave no shits abotu the natives being forced into terrible reservations, slaughtered, sent to orphanages where they sufferred terrible abuse, etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:30
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Much like most white americans/canadians gave no shits abotu the natives being forced into terrible reservations, slaughtered, sent to orphanages where they sufferred terrible abuse, etc. acceptable Collateral damage
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:33
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:hm The vast majority of people on Earth passively support abhorrent poo poo. So we either loathe them all, or we figure out a way to make Israel's occupation of Palestine materially different from China's actions against the Uighurs, such that Israelis are bad people but Chinese people are not. This is distinct from the morality of the occupation itself- after all, one could argue that ending the occupation of Palestine is an act of incredible compassion towards Israelis, helping to liberate them from a prison of fear, hatred, and racism.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:34
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The vast majority of people on Earth passively support abhorrent poo poo. So we either loathe them all, or we figure out a way to make Israel's occupation of Palestine materially different from China's actions against the Uighurs, such that Israelis are bad people but Chinese people are not. This is distinct from the morality of the occupation itself- after all, one could argue that ending the occupation of Palestine is an act of incredible compassion towards Israelis, helping to liberate them from a prison of fear, hatred, and racism. your logic exonerates the passive nazi type i'm not buying that i mean, sure it's internally consistent but it also means that the term "morality" has no political meaning
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:34
|
|
|
That is bullshit. There are always people in that society who have the moral clarity to denounce the status quo. "Well he was a product of his time" is no excuse when John Browns exist.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:39
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:your logic exonerates the passive nazi type i'm not buying that Well, gently caress, we already exonerated the people who passively supported Nazism, and focused on the active supporters. I'm perfectly fine with saying people who join or vote for Israel's right-wing parties are evil little fuckers, in this framework.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:39
|
|
Effectronica posted:Well, gently caress, we already exonerated the people who passively supported Nazism, and focused on the active supporters. I'm perfectly fine with saying people who join or vote for Israel's right-wing parties are evil little fuckers, in this framework. We only criminally exonerated them, not morally.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:40
|
|
|
Really we should not dwell on the passive supporters of Nazism, such as Hitler, and instead focus on the true culprits: modern day Palestinians.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:48
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The vast majority of people on Earth passively support abhorrent poo poo. So we either loathe them all, or we figure out a way to make Israel's occupation of Palestine materially different from China's actions against the Uighurs, such that Israelis are bad people but Chinese people are not. This is distinct from the morality of the occupation itself- after all, one could argue that ending the occupation of Palestine is an act of incredible compassion towards Israelis, helping to liberate them from a prison of fear, hatred, and racism. E: are there even any videos of Chinese mobs lynching minorities after any of the knife attacks there? rscott fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Oct 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:50
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Well, gently caress, we already exonerated the people who passively supported Nazism, and focused on the active supporters. I'm perfectly fine with saying people who join or vote for Israel's right-wing parties are evil little fuckers, in this framework. i'm not sure that's a coherent position. you can't accept the basic premises that lead logically to a course of action and then condemn that action
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 23:56
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Seriously, how are you and everyone agreeing with you on this not banned?  rscott posted:How about Israel is a democracy and China isn't for one? You answered your second question with your first one but you didn't seem to notice it so let me point it out to you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 00:06
|
|
|
7c Nickel posted:That is bullshit. There are always people in that society who have the moral clarity to denounce the status quo. "Well he was a product of his time" is no excuse when John Browns exist. And there are plenty of people that argue that Brown was no different than the Klan as happened to me last week on the anniversary of his raid on Harpers Ferry. Humanity is terrible
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 00:06
|
|
|
Rhesus Pieces posted:Has it ever been this bad though? I know Israeli attitudes toward Palestinians have always been terrible but somehow this feels even worse. The Israeli public has slid so far right and is so whipped up against Arabs that I could see this ending in a full blown civilian-on-civilian ethnic cleansing free-for-all. It's mostly just perception and selective reporting - don't forget that Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for making concessions to the Palestinians. Though I think it may be somewhat more open, due in large part to generational change. Just look at someone who is 20 years old today. They were an infant too young to speak when the Oslo Accords were signed and Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, they were only a few years old when Israel started building a wall in the West Bank, they grew up during the Second Intifada and the Gaza disengagement, and the only wars Israel has been in since then were against Hamas and Hezbollah. The Nakba and other major atrocities happened before they were born, the day-to-day racism is utterly invisible to them because they refuse to associate with Arabs, they believe that several major concessions have been made to the Palestinians but it didn't stop terrorism, the various wars against Arab countries are far enough in the past that the political tensions of the times are long forgotten, and so on. The right-wing narrative is that Israeli concessions have only led to further terrorism (the usual example being the Gaza disengagement being followed by Hamas winning elections), which is supposedly proof that Palestinians just intrinsically hate and want to kill all Jews for no reason, and that their terrorism is due to their desire for the annihilation of the Jewish race. The biggest mistake a person can possibly make, I think, is assuming that the only reason someone believes something is because they are a bad person and that their reasoning can never be understood. There's always a reason, and it's usually based on a skewed understanding of real events rather than some dumb inborn cultural evil. Saying that Israelis are all bad people is no more reasonable than Netanyahu saying that all Arabs are bad people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 00:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 03:50 |
|
|
Surprisingly (at least to me) the Western world has decided to grow a pair and tell Bibi to eat poo poo. Except for Germany. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34594563
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 00:16
|
|
