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Solice Kirsk posted:Ha, he was upset because someone said him slapping one out of his mentally retarded son was "incestuous". Doesn't incest mean sexual contact between closely related individuals? What the hell else would you call it? Vegetable peeling
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Oct 21, 2015 14:20
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ECT is a valid treatment with multiple applications. It's not like in the movie version of Cukoo's Nest, where it's presented as a near-lobotomy and involves a vicious physical reaction. Facilitated communication is what is truly scary. Every time you get a post on FB: Autistic boy communicates for the first time!!! The fact is that if a person with autism isn't able to communicate with a low-tech method (PECS, signs, gestures, etc.), then they are not likely to communicate with a high tech method (iPad, laptop, etc.). This is validated by research. In this community, there are some people who are not able to, for example, point to a card to make a choice or express a want (PECS), or use signs -- and nobody knows exactly why, except that ASD is necessarily about an impairment of communication skills. It's a natural desire for parents to think that their "real" child is "locked away" inside. However FC is as much quackery that takes advantage of families as equine therapy, dolphin therapy, chelation, fad diets, FloorTime, etc.
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Oct 21, 2015 14:56
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Being locked away in a shell of a body and not being able to communicate scares me to death. I know that is not what is happening here, but that sounds like a fate worse than hell.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:15
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So is Locked-in Syndrome real? I mean I feel like it has to be but I'm not sure of any clear examples or ones that aren't obvious FC hoaxes (except for possibly the butterfly and the diving bell guy like I mentioned earlier) edit: N/m this guy seems pretty legit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Pistorius
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Oct 21, 2015 16:07
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nocal posted:ECT is a valid treatment with multiple applications. It's not like in the movie version of Cukoo's Nest, where it's presented as a near-lobotomy and involves a vicious physical reaction. Equine assisted therapy has shown benefits, there's a bunch of research on it. It is therapy, though, conducted by licensed professionals with clinical goals as a part of an empirically validated treatment model, under the orders of a medical professional. It's supported by many insurance companies and the VA. Throwing a kid on a horse and riding them around a ring won't do much. What's worrying is that there's no requirements in most states for anyone to say they're offering therapeutic riding or equine therapies, which means anyone can do it. I have heard some terrifying stories of dangerous behaviors by people who want to cash in on a trend and have no idea what they're doing. No, you shouldn't tie children to the saddle. No, if they're screaming in pain because you're forcing their legs to go over the saddle, you really should stop.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:32
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So, the year is 1864. There's some conflict between the Union army and Native Americans in Colorado. A group of around 800 led by Cheyenne chief Black Kettle is eager to stay out of any fighting and -on the advice of the government- relocates to Big Sandy Creek. To make sure his peaceful intentions are known Black Kettle raises a US flag and a white flag over the camp. On the night of November 28th Union army commander Colonel John Chivington arrives and lets his men drink and celeberate for what they plan to do come morning and declaredquote:drat any man who sympathizes with Indians! ... I have come to kill Indians, and believe it is right and honorable to use any means under God's heaven to kill Indians. ... Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice. On the morning of the 29th Chivington orders his men to attack the camp. They happily comply with only two officers -Captain Silas Soule and Lieutenant Joseph Cramer- refusing and ordering their troop to hold fire. These quotes from the wiki article can sum up what happened next. quote:"I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces ... With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors ... By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ..." quote:"I saw one squaw lying on the bank, whose leg had been broken. A soldier came up to her with a drawn sabre. She raised her arm to protect herself; he struck, breaking her arm. She rolled over, and raised her other arm; he struck, breaking that, and then left her with out killing her. I saw one squaw cut open, with an unborn child lying by her side." quote:"There was one little child, probably three years old, just big enough to walk through the sand. The Indians had gone ahead, and this little child was behind, following after them. The little fellow was perfectly naked, travelling in the sand. I saw one man get off his horse at a distance of about seventy-five yards and draw up his rifle and fire. He missed the child. Another man came up and said, 'let me try the son of a b-. I can hit him.' He got down off his horse, kneeled down, and fired at the little child, but he missed him. A third man came up, and made a similar remark, and fired, and the little fellow dropped." quote:"Fingers and ears were cut off the bodies for the jewelry they carried. The body of White Antelope, lying solitarily in the creek bed, was a prime target. Besides scalping him the soldiers cut off his nose, ears, and testicles-the last for a tobacco pouch ..." quote:"I heard one man say that he had cut a woman's private parts out and had them for exhibition on a stick. I heard of one instance of a child, a few months old, being thrown into the feed-box of a wagon, and after being carried some distance, left on the ground to perish; I also heard of numerous instances in which men had cut out the private parts of females and stretched them over their saddle-bows, and some of them over their hats."- Lieutenant James D. Cannon Even for the United States this was too much and both the army and Congress ordered a investigation, soliciting testimony from multiple witnesss, including Captain Silas Soule. Ultimately the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War declared that... quote:
Chivington resigns in 1865 and has trouble finding a job for the rest of his life, but other then that, is not punished. That same year, Silas Soule is murdered in Denver, likely by veterans loyal to Chivington and angered at his testimony. Nckdictator has a new favorite as of 01:31 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 16:37
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nocal posted:Facilitated communication is what is truly scary. Every time you get a post on FB: Autistic boy communicates for the first time!!!7 Somehow it was even creepier to watch than I'd imagined. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQcPsCVUHbs
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Oct 21, 2015 18:33
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I hope everyone here gets that while FC is quackery, it's not unheard of for autistic people to be able to type but not speak. My autistic kid learned how to talk *after* learning how to read - it was reading and typing that really helped him learn how to speak. This was all when he was 3, and his speech caught up quickly, but after watching him go through that process it was easy for me to understand how a (more severely) autistic person might only be able to communicate through written language. The original point of FC was in usage with kids who had cerebral palsy, and from what I read after reading that NYT article, it seems that something like FC is occasionally helpful for kids who have physical problems keeping their arms up while typing. Any legit case should be able to pass double-blind tests, though.
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Oct 21, 2015 18:51
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Seems like that kind of thing was pretty commonplace in British settler nations in the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myall_Creek_massacre quote:The Myall Creek massacre near Gwydir River, in the central New South Wales district of Namoi, involved the killing of up to 30 unarmed Indigenous Australians by ten white Europeans and one black African on 10 June 1838 at the Myall Creek near Bingara in northern New South Wales.[1] After two trials, seven of the 11 colonists involved in the killings were found guilty of murder and hanged.[1] quote:A group of eleven stockmen, consisting of assigned convicts and former convicts, ten of them men of European extraction and one African (John Johnstone), led by a squatter, John Fleming from Mungie Bundie Run near Moree, arrived at Henry Dangar's Myall Creek station on 10 June 1838. They rode up to the station huts beside which were camped a group of approximately thirty-five Aboriginal people. They were part of the Wirrayaraay (alternative spelling: Weraerai) group who belonged to the Kamilaroi people. They had been camped at the station for a few weeks after being invited by one of the convict stockmen, Charles Kilmeister (or Kilminister), to come to their station for their safety and protection from the gangs of marauding stockmen who were roaming the district slaughtering any Aboriginal people they could find. These Aboriginal people had previously been camped peacefully at McIntyre's station for a few months. They were therefore well known to the whites. Most of them had been given European names such as Daddy, King Sandy, Joey, Martha and Charley. Some of the children spoke a certain amount of English. When the stockmen rode into their camp they fled into the convict's hut pleading for protection.[2][3]
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Oct 22, 2015 00:22
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Vladimir Poutine posted:Seems like that kind of thing was pretty commonplace in British settler nations in the 19th century. Welp, there goes my week. That's utterly horrifying.
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Oct 22, 2015 00:27
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monster on a stick posted:I don't see her being sent to prison for decades as disturbing - what happened was rape, the patient didn't consent, and couldn't with the IQ of a very young child, no matter what her Ouija board said. Regardless, sexual relationships between a doctor and their patient is considered unethical, she would have known that. Do you believe she is a threat to society? To the extent that potentially 40 years removed from it is justified? She's being charged and punished the same as a malicious predator who rapes someone to assert power over them while she's just a severely mentally ill woman who was living out some sad misguided fantasy. Is her career and professional and personal reputation being completely destroyed not a substantive punishment?
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Oct 22, 2015 01:04
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Vladimir Poutine posted:Seems like that kind of thing was pretty commonplace in British settler nations in the 19th century. quote:The stockmen then entered the hut, tied them to a long tether rope and led them away. They took them to a gully on the side of the ridge about 800 metres to the west of the station huts. There they slaughtered them all except for one woman who they kept with them for the next couple of days. I know this sort of atrocity is par for the course for that era, but oh my god. That poor woman.
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Oct 22, 2015 01:31
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Do you believe she is a threat to society? To the extent that potentially 40 years removed from it is justified? She's being charged and punished the same as a malicious predator who rapes someone to assert power over them while she's just a severely mentally ill woman who was living out some sad misguided fantasy. Is her career and professional and personal reputation being completely destroyed not a substantive punishment? I don't believe she was mentally ill, she bought into her own hype and was projecting her own wants and desires onto another person who was incapable of expressing his own. I haven't seen anything that stated she was mentally ill or not able to understand what she was doing - that's the danger of things like facilitated communication. It's unconscious influence. The person who is facilitating genuinely believes that the person with the disability is the one communicating. With her long history of disability rights and minority rights advocacy, what kind of relationship would better enforce her worldview than one with a profoundly disabled, poor African-American man? She's got to cling to the belief that the communication she received from him was genuine, or everything she's ever believed herself to be falls apart.
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Oct 22, 2015 01:33
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prick with tenure posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facilitated_communication Oh noooooooooo That's a loving BUMMER. That whole topic. Even before you scroll down far enough on the Wikipedia page to see "List of rape cases" followed by about a dozen entries
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Oct 22, 2015 02:13
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Bonster posted:I don't believe she was mentally ill, she bought into her own hype and was projecting her own wants and desires onto another person who was incapable of expressing his own. I haven't seen anything that stated she was mentally ill or not able to understand what she was doing - that's the danger of things like facilitated communication. It's unconscious influence. The person who is facilitating genuinely believes that the person with the disability is the one communicating. With her long history of disability rights and minority rights advocacy, what kind of relationship would better enforce her worldview than one with a profoundly disabled, poor African-American man? What exactly do you consider to be mental illness if having conversations and a romance with someone else whose entire "person" is actually just imaginary projections from your own mind doesn't count. Like if she believed a rock had a consciousness and was in love with her would you think she was mentally sound or what?
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Oct 22, 2015 02:27
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mr. mephistopheles posted:What exactly do you consider to be mental illness if having conversations and a romance with someone else whose entire "person" is actually just imaginary projections from your own mind doesn't count. She had sex with a person who is not capable of consent. She raped him. Whether the punishment is fair, I won't comment. But she is sure as poo poo guilty.
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Oct 22, 2015 02:36
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Somehow it was even creepier to watch than I'd imagined. That is loving sad as poo poo. edit: I thought about it a little, and I imagine the proliferation of false sexual assault accusations that come out of FC probably follows from the subconscious messiah complex a lot of these "facilitators" seem to suffer from - if the kid is being abused, I can save him from that too and get extra validation of my status of autist savior, etc. otoh, some of the things that get typed out are borderline pornographic, so people's subliminal minds being gutters probably factors in here as well. Disturbing business all around - a rorschach test the person doesn't know she's taking. prick with tenure has a new favorite as of 02:53 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 02:44
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prick with tenure posted:That is loving sad as poo poo. Munchausen by Palsy.
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Oct 22, 2015 02:57
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Vladimir Poutine posted:Seems like that kind of thing was pretty commonplace in British settler nations in the 19th century. Pretty much only notable for the perpetrators getting punished. The Frontier Wars were pretty grim.
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Oct 22, 2015 03:00
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Do you believe she is a threat to society? To the extent that potentially 40 years removed from it is justified? She's being charged and punished the same as a malicious predator who rapes someone to assert power over them while she's just a severely mentally ill woman who was living out some sad misguided fantasy. Is her career and professional and personal reputation being completely destroyed not a substantive punishment? Yes, rapists are threats to society and should be locked up. She's not mentally ill, she knew having sex with an active patient is wrong because that's medical ethics 101, she knew that numerous medical associations have called FC bullshit and that it is a glorified Ouija board, so he was never giving consent, ever. I happen to know victims of rape and incest, and what they've been through, and frankly a 40 year sentence sounds like a good start.
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Oct 22, 2015 03:11
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quote:‘White people uphold white privilege in ways that they repress,’’ she once wrote. Even when they mean to help, they behave ‘‘in ways that are disrespectful and that undermine the self-empowerment of the people whose space they invade.’’ quote:In 2013, the memoirs of a Japanese teenager with autism, who is an F.C. user, were translated into English by the novelist David Mitchell and his wife, K.A. Yoshida, as ‘‘The Reason I Jump.’’ quote:Anna brought books for him to read, Maya Angelou and others, and discovered that he read like a savant — 10 pages every minute. (She turned the pages for him.) quote:Two of D.J.’s fellow typers on the panel, Jacob Pratt and Hope Block, had just become engaged. They had been going on ‘‘supported dates’’ — flirting with each other through F.C., planning get-togethers, negotiating intimacy — for about a year. quote:‘‘He’s an extremely ethical person — it’s one of the things that impressed me about him,’’ Anna said in court... "If somebody has an interesting, engaging mind and good heart and a beautiful soul, that is transformative. It shows through, and you love the person. And so you love being close to them, and you love the body that they’re in, because that’s the body that they have.’’ quote:‘‘I wouldn’t have fallen in love with him if he wasn’t capable of consent,’’ she would later say in court. ‘‘I wouldn’t have fallen in love with him if he wasn’t someone interested in reading books and talking about them. He was my best friend.’’ Oh my god. e: there's a part where he "communicates" through her that he likes locally-sourced red wine now, and doesn't like gospel music. Like my mind is still struggling to accept that this isn't a cut sketch from Chappelle's Show and is really a real thing that happened swamp waste has a new favorite as of 03:56 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 03:38
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thatbastardken posted:Pretty much only notable for the perpetrators getting punished. The Frontier Wars were pretty grim. The execution of the Europeans who perpetrated the Myall Creek massacre led to something of a code of silence that led to perpetrators not being prosecuted or switching to methods such as poisoning that were hard to establish guilt with contemporary policing/science. I think it was actually the only massacre that went punished in convict-settled states. South Australia was a little bit different because it was a British province rather than a convict settlement and a lot of colonial racism there was met with criticism in Britain and the otherwise racist South Australia Act required a "protector" of Indigenous people, so IIRC there were occasional prosecutions there. That said, the most famous massacre in the region, Avenue Range Station Massacre, was dropped by the court because none of the witnesses were white and massacres were often poorly policed. They were also reported in really unsympathetic language in local newspapers: quote:Hoar frost covered the hill all round... [On] the side of [it]... lay huddled together in a fretting mass, two reeking specimens of sable humanity. What a sight - what a picture of uncompensated, unmitigated, hopeless misery. A venerable old patriarch, pillowed on the icy grass, with his grey locks dappled in blood, forced by fierce pulmonic convulsions from his weakened lungs... His blind old lubra lay beside him. South Australia had universal suffrage in the late 19th century so all people, including women and Indigenous Australians could vote in the 1890's which was pretty progressive for the time. Then South Australia became part of the nation of Australia in 1901 and under national law Indigenous Australians weren't citizens and couldn't vote. They didn't get the right to vote back until 1962. It might not have been the worst injustice in the history of colonising Australia but image being an Indigenous Australian who could vote and then suddenly becoming a non-citizen for probably the rest of your life.
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Oct 22, 2015 03:54
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mr. mephistopheles posted:What exactly do you consider to be mental illness if having conversations and a romance with someone else whose entire "person" is actually just imaginary projections from your own mind doesn't count. This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever read. Stop defending a rapist you twat.
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Oct 22, 2015 03:58
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Woodburger posted:This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever read. Stop defending a rapist you twat. I'm not defending a rapist you loving idiot. I'm asking if the legal system should make some kind of differentiation between legally similar but contextually very different crimes and whether or not someone who had a make believe relationship with a person who doesn't actually exist might be better served with some kind of psychiatric treatment than facing the exact same punishment as a sexual sadist who walked up to a person in a parking lot and threw them to the ground and forcibly raped them. I never said she didn't commit rape or shouldn't face punishment, just that there should maybe be some distinction between her and a violent sexual predator and currently there isn't one. It must be nice to live in a black and white world where all bad people are equally dismissable and justice is whatever the worst the legal system can do to them is.
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Oct 22, 2015 04:49
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mr. mephistopheles posted:I'm not defending a rapist you loving idiot. I'm asking if the legal system should make some kind of differentiation between legally similar but contextually very different crimes and whether or not someone who had a make believe relationship with a person who doesn't actually exist might be better served with some kind of psychiatric treatment than facing the exact same punishment as a sexual sadist who walked up to a person in a parking lot and threw them to the ground and forcibly raped them. I never said she didn't commit rape or shouldn't face punishment, just that there should maybe be some distinction between her and a violent sexual predator and currently there isn't one. It's good to gently caress retards.
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Oct 22, 2015 04:51
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mr. mephistopheles posted:I'm not defending a rapist you loving idiot. I'm asking if the legal system should make some kind of differentiation between legally similar but contextually very different crimes and whether or not someone who had a make believe relationship with a person who doesn't actually exist might be better served with some kind of psychiatric treatment than facing the exact same punishment as a sexual sadist who walked up to a person in a parking lot and threw them to the ground and forcibly raped them. I never said she didn't commit rape or shouldn't face punishment, just that there should maybe be some distinction between her and a violent sexual predator and currently there isn't one. I think the mistake you're making is assuming that someone who is mentally sound couldn't still believe in a pseudoscience wholeheartedly enough to do what she did. Just because she believes in something that's proven to be phony doesn't make her mentally ill any more than people who go to chiropractors, which is also a discredited pseudoscience, are mentally ill. And yeah, this lady could benefit from psychiatric treatment, but so could the violent parking lot rapist in your other example. Either one would still deserve to be kept away from the opportunity to commit more crimes. Either one could be mentally sound and still benefit from therapy as well. I don't think there's any reason to assume you know whether she is mentally sound or unsound - it's highly possible she is willfully ignoring the evidence against FC and genuinely believes she is communicating with this person. That does not in and of itself make her mentally incompetent to stand trial or even mentally ill as we understand the term. In fact it makes it more likely that she would 'fall in love' with other patients in the future, if she did believe the connection she felt was mutual. In this regard she is definitely a danger to others.
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Oct 22, 2015 05:00
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mr. mephistopheles posted:someone who had a make believe relationship with a person who doesn't actually exist He exists. I can imagine the reasons you're discounting his personhood, but she raped a human who was unable to consent to her, and she did it from a position of power over him. quote:a sexual sadist who walked up to a person in a parking lot and threw them to the ground and forcibly raped them. I never said she didn't commit rape or shouldn't face punishment, just that there should maybe be some distinction between her and a violent sexual predator and currently there isn't one. I think you are pretty confused about rape. It is not usually a violent rape by a stranger. In fact, that's somewhat rare, in the grand scheme of things. Though overall I agree that prison should be less about retribution and more about treatment.
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Oct 22, 2015 05:09
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swamp waste posted:Oh my god. Crazy fan-fiction women projecting their desires onto coma victims. It's such an obvious conclusion I'm surprised it's not considered from the onset.
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Oct 22, 2015 05:34
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Travis343 posted:I think the mistake you're making is assuming that someone who is mentally sound couldn't still believe in a pseudoscience wholeheartedly enough to do what she did. Just because she believes in something that's proven to be phony doesn't make her mentally ill any more than people who go to chiropractors, which is also a discredited pseudoscience, are mentally ill. The fact that she kept contacting the family over and over again instead of counting herself lucky that they hadn't immediately contacted the police, and THEN tried to go around their back to see DJ secretly also proves that she would probably ignore any kind of restraining order and would continue to harass DJ and his family if she weren't physically separated from them.
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Oct 22, 2015 05:57
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mr. mephistopheles posted:What exactly do you consider to be mental illness if having conversations and a romance with someone else whose entire "person" is actually just imaginary projections from your own mind doesn't count.
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Oct 22, 2015 08:04
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All of this F.C. talk reminded me of Attachment Therapy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_therapy quote:Candace Newmaker, 2000; a ten-year-old adopted girl who was killed by asphyxiation during a rebirthing session used as part of a two-week attachment therapy "intensive". The two attachment therapists, Connell Watkins (formerly of The Attachment Center, Evergreen) and Julie Ponder were each sentenced to 16 years imprisonment for their part in the therapy during which Candace was wrapped in blankets and required to struggle to be reborn, against the weight of several adults. Her inability to struggle out was interpreted as "resistance". Her adoptive mother and the "therapeutic foster parents" with whom she had been placed received lesser penalties. Watkins was released on parole in August 2008 after serving approximately 7 years of her sentence.  Fun fact!Nancy Thomas a former dog groomer with no therapeutic or otherwise relevant education works there. She is the woman who adopted "Child of Rage", Beth Thomas who also works in the Attachement Therapy bussiness... 
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Oct 22, 2015 08:38
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mr. mephistopheles posted:What exactly do you consider to be mental illness if having conversations and a romance with someone else whose entire "person" is actually just imaginary projections from your own mind doesn't count. In your example of a person having a relationship with a rock, there is noone being sexually assaulted. The fact that there is a victim is the problem. If someone thinks they have relationships with objects, that doesn't make them crazy or unable to know right from wrong.
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Oct 22, 2015 09:34
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Infyrno posted:In your example of a person having a relationship with a rock, there is noone being sexually assaulted. The fact that there is a victim is the problem. If someone thinks they have relationships with objects, that doesn't make them crazy or unable to know right from wrong. But they still are viewing the rock as a person which you are taking for granite. Whoa hey I never finished my ghost flight story whoops better fix that
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Oct 22, 2015 14:20
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mr. mephistopheles posted:What exactly do you consider to be mental illness if having conversations and a romance with someone else whose entire "person" is actually just imaginary projections from your own mind doesn't count. Other people have already said it, but you're making some fundamental errors here. For one thing, projection is not something mentally ill people do exclusively. We do it all the time. Rapists certainly do it to justify their actions - "your voice says no, but your eyes say yes." She wanted something to be true, and because she was subconsciously authoring his expressions, it became true. That's not mental illness. Her behavior was predatory and unethical, at the very least. Even if she believed these to be his thoughts, she took advantage of a vulnerable person to meet her own needs. The other mistake is your comparing her victim to a rock. He is a human being who has a consciousness, even if it is that of a small child.
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Oct 22, 2015 14:51
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He has the consciousness of an adult and 35 years of life as an adult. A developmentally disabled adult, yes, but an adult nonetheless. He's not capable of consent. I'm not arguing he is. But please don't infantalise a grown man.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:02
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You're right, my apologies.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:26
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Travis343 posted:I think the mistake you're making is assuming that someone who is mentally sound couldn't still believe in a pseudoscience wholeheartedly enough to do what she did. Just because she believes in something that's proven to be phony doesn't make her mentally ill any more than people who go to chiropractors, which is also a discredited pseudoscience, are mentally ill.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:36
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painted bird posted:He has the consciousness of an adult and 35 years of life as an adult. A developmentally disabled adult, yes, but an adult nonetheless. Uh, in this particular instance, DJ's capabilities seem literally on the level of an infant or a toddler. Obviously there's a potential for overly dismissing him as not human, but I'm having a hard time seeing how treating him as an infant/child is unfair.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:02
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He has profound disabilities, yes. He cannot communicate effectively. But he has lived for three and a half decades and he has experienced them somehow or other and he has thoughts on them, whatever they may be, whatever complexity they may be, that an infant or a toddler would not have. His comprehension, attention span, verbal and reasoning ability and so on have not been formally tested and the severity of his cerebral palsy prevents conclusive, rigorous tests of them, but at the very least, he has 35 years' worth of memories, even if he does not process them the way others would. That makes him objectively, quantitatively different to an infant, even if you do not accept the assertion that a grown man is qualitatively different from an infant, whatever the status of his brain. Palate cleanser: Christy Brown was pretty rad.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:18
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Are we arguing the degree to which someone was raped because 
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Oct 22, 2015 16:21
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