|
Hazzard posted:Apologies for any mistakes. I've been hearing an awful lot about Islam for all sorts of people and the muslims who speak on everything I've seen are crazy. The BBC does not bring on moderates very often.  And probably with significantly less rambling off on semi-related tangents.What he said about accidentally doing/eating something haram is spot on and just illustrates how Islam always has some kind of release clause, so to speak. It was accidental? No worries. You were starving? No worries. You didn't want to offend someone by not eating? Even then, a lot of scholars say no worries, especially if it's family because someone causing poo poo in their family for a dumb reason is by definition not being a very good Muslim. About dress, the Qur'an emphasizes modesty. Things that are specified include covering the chest and other areas, but there is nothing that says "Cover yourself in a shroud from head to toe." It's just that the way people interpret modesty depends almost entirely on the culture and surroundings they come from. For example, my "lazy hijab" is a tube-like underscarf and a hoodie, and is as much to deal with the irritation of butt-length hair than anything else. Covers the hair, covers everything else that needs to be, I'm good. To a lot of people this is unacceptably casual. The way to look at the "standardization" of sharia is basically the same way you have to look at the standardization of the hadith: There are some we all agree on, spiritually-speaking, like the five pillars and the idea of tawhid and other things. Every Muslim agrees with those because they are the fundamental beliefs of Islam; not believing them would be like a Christian saying "Meh, I don't think I have to believe in Jesus" but still considering themselves devout, it just doesn't make sense. Then there are the others, which are another one of those areas where Islam becomes more an argument than a unifying force at times. ~ Ashura is coming up! Ashura is a holiday that commemorates the freeing of the early Israelites under the Pharaoh; while I am doubtful as to the historicity of that having occurred, I take it as a moment to remind myself of the connection between Islam and not only Judaism but the rest of the world. It's one of the days where it's considered sunnah, or optional but smiled upon, to fast and I think I'm going to do it this year because if I do a few through the year maybe Ramadan won't seem like the unending torment it did this year  I should have posted something about the Islamic new year on the 14th of October but I did not, so a belated happy year 1437 to everyone  EDIT: Buddhists are pretty awesome that I've met. I have met more Buddhist monks than one would think I should have based on me living in a small fishing town in Alaska. Weirdly a lot of monks came through Alaska and there were also a lot of Buddhists in Alaska. But with most of the monks I ever met, they gave off this palpable wave of mellowness that was really cool. There have been a few imams I've met like that too, most memorably the one who was getting unmercifully hosed with by a hyperactive mosque cat while he was trying to talk to be about things. Tendai fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Oct 21, 2015 |
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 15:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:58 |
|
|
Tendai posted:Once again Amun has swept through and said everything I would say So sorry!! lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 16:13
|
|
|
Amun Khonsu posted:So sorry!! lol (Really though, post like hell because I always love seeing what other people think. And not just when I agree with it)
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2015 16:48
|
|
|
Latey someone has been spamming my facebook with pictures of muslims whipping themselves. I know this is some kind of celebration, but not sure what it's all about. Anyway, this person keeps claiming thse are pictures of prisoners, being forced to whip eachother through the streets, and this is what is going to happen in Europe by 2040 unless we stop the Islamic invation blah-blah-blah. Obviously, I find this extremely racist and completely ridiculous. So, help me come up with a good reply to shut down the stream of these claims?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 11:40
|
|
|
Amun Khonsu posted:The Shari'ah on women's dress indicates that a woman should cover all of her body except her hands, face and feet, according to most scholars. Wait, so the coverings are part of the "5 pillars/6 beliefs" of Sharia? ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Oct 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 13:18
|
|
|
ashgromnies posted:Wait, so the coverings are part of the "5 pillars/6 beliefs" of Sharia? Clothing requirements derived in the shari'ah (the Law) of a nation, territory or community are not part of the 5 pillars or 6 core beliefs which are required to be a Muslim and not wearing a hijab does not take one out of Islam. However, Shari'ah does tell us that we must accept and believe in the 5 pillars and 6 beliefs to be a Muslim. Clothing regulations are derived, like many other rules (and the 5 pillars/6 beliefs), from the Quran and hadith on how men and women should dress to have a modest society and (unlike the 5 pillars and 6 beliefs) subject to various interpretation on how it is to be implemented. Shari'ah covers everything, from the 5 pillars and 6 beliefs to clothing, from washing your body, brushing your teeth and using the toilet to making mandatory formal prayers (salat), from economics of a nation and its people to civil and criminal disputes, etc. However, not everything in Shari'ah is religious (though initially based on elements of religious text to verying degrees as well as, technology, cultural norms etc) nor part of the 5 pillars or 6 beliefs. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Oct 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 13:55
|
|
|
BattyKiara posted:Latey someone has been spamming my facebook with pictures of muslims whipping themselves. I know this is some kind of celebration, but not sure what it's all about. Anyway, this person keeps claiming thse are pictures of prisoners, being forced to whip eachother through the streets, and this is what is going to happen in Europe by 2040 unless we stop the Islamic invation blah-blah-blah. Obviously, I find this extremely racist and completely ridiculous. So, help me come up with a good reply to shut down the stream of these claims? The flagellation that you mentioned is part of what's called the Mourning of Muharram. The geographical spread of it is kind of interesting, because the seriously hardcore practice of it is mostly focused in the far eastern part of what we consider the Middle East (Pakistan, Afghanistan, India) but then also in Iraq and Bahrain. It's called matam in the general sense, and there are two kinds. One is where you use your hands and is best translate as breast-beating, which is I think something that Catholics at least used to do, I've read about men beating their chest and doing a mea culpa. The other kind is what you're referring to pictures of, and for that people beat themselves with chains or even go so far as to injure themselves with bladed weapons. How this is looked upon within the greater Islamic community ranges to a general sense of horror in the Sunni community and even within Shi'a groups a lot of people I know kind of think of the men who do that as being, I don't know, the modern equivalent of the Catholic hair-shirt-and-scourging crowd. In other words, technically acceptable but kind of... intense. Anyhow, the holiday and what it means and most importantly the political/historical effects of Hussein are something that had a pretty startling impact, it was a serious blow to the Umayyad dynasty. The following picture I'm linking to is  and  depending on where you work and what you're prepared to see. It is a man beating himself with what is basically a flail of knives. There is blood but not like, gashing wounds and bones showing. This is one example of the more intense matam: http://i.imgur.com/L6bjVE5.jpgApparently I can't spoiler tag timg stuff so yeah I'm just gonna link it because no one wants to hover over that on accident. ashgromnies posted:Wait, so the coverings are part of the "5 pillars/6 beliefs" of Sharia? Belief in a single, undivided god Belief in angels Belief in the books Allah has revealed Belief in the prophets/messengers Belief in the Day of Judgement Belief in al-qadar. This particularly is a hard concept to explain because Islam believes in a sort of predestination but also in free will. It's a philosophical thing that even I have a hard time wrapping my brain around. The way I saw it put on another site is a pretty good explanation: 1) Allah knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen. 2) Allah has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen. 3) Whatever Allah wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen. 4) Allah is the Creator of everything. So basically, all of that, but with the understanding that we still make the choices we make and are free to make them, rather than things being etched in stone. So maybe a better way to put it is that "Allah knows what we'll do, but it's not set in stone until we do it." Even that's not satisfying me though. Like Amun Khonsu said, those are essentially the things that make you a practicing Muslim. Anyone can say the shahadah, but doing that and not doing anything afterwards is like, I don't know, getting baptized in the Catholic church but never doing confession or believing in the Trinity I guess, while still claiming to be Catholic? The rest of Sharia is, like he said, about... everything. Finances! Cleanliness! Marriage! Crime! Civil law! How you poop! It's probably closest in terms of how it blends spiritual and mundane life with the canon of Jewish law. I think at one point in this thread or on my blog I made the comment that sharia is what guides the outer life of a Muslim, while Sufism is a practice/philosophy that corresponds to governing the inner life. And as per usual, while some fundamentals are held in common by just about everyone, the rest is a state of perpetual disagreement and grudging "well, maybe you're right, but I'm probably right-er."
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 14:36
|
|
|
BattyKiara posted:Latey someone has been spamming my facebook with pictures of muslims whipping themselves. I know this is some kind of celebration It's for Ashura and Christian self-flagellation predates Islam by centuries and I need to type faster.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 14:40
|
|
|
Thank you!
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 14:59
|
|
|
Tendai posted:Belief in al-qadar. This particularly is a hard concept to explain because Islam believes in a sort of predestination but also in free will. It's a philosophical thing that even I have a hard time wrapping my brain around. The way I saw it put on another site is a pretty good explanation: Yep, exactly. I call it the “Foreknowledge” of Allah to explain it to people in the classes I used to teach. This is part of the belief that God is in charge of everything. Mankind has freewill to do good or bad and choose his destiny however, 1. Allah knows everything, what will happen or has happened; 2. Allah has recorded all that will happen and has happened; 3. Whatever Allah wills to happen happens; 4. Allah is the Creator of everything. Thusly, God has created us and knows what decisions we will make given a certain set of circumstances. For a Muslim it basically means that everything that happens to them has a purpose. Since this also gives us a sense of patience when something bad happens, that it is part of God’s plan, and we should be patient with bad events, prayerful and thankful for good events.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 15:17
|
|
|
That is a good way of thinking about it. It's one of those things that I still kind of have to consider and clarify for myself. I think one person I read once described it as a choose your own adventure book, which made me laugh but sort of made sense because it's choosing your own path but Allah/the author still knows all the posibilities and what can happen from them. In an unrelated note, today the idiot cat jumped on me during fajr, the first prayer of the day, when I was prostrated on the floor. Idiot cat weighs fifteen pounds.  I don't know if "drat it Kiska, I can't breathe" invalidates prayers but motherfucker, I am not Muhammad and your fat rear end isn't Muezza.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 15:59
|
|
|
Tendai posted:In an unrelated note, today the idiot cat jumped on me during fajr, the first prayer of the day, when I was prostrated on the floor. Idiot cat weighs fifteen pounds. No matter what you call his name, I'm of the opinion that you can't believe in a god without also accepting that he has a sense of humour. And also that he really likes beetles.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 16:04
|
|
|
flakeloaf posted:No matter what you call his name, I'm of the opinion that you can't believe in a god without also accepting that he has a sense of humour. And also that he really likes beetles. Did you mean... one that really likes "The Beetles" or just beetles? LoL
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 16:50
|
|
|
flakeloaf posted:No matter what you call his name, I'm of the opinion that you can't believe in a god without also accepting that he has a sense of humour. And also that he really likes beetles. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
In countries where Sharia law is the law of the land, what is the court system like that decides if you have broken the law and what your punishment is? What would be considered a minor or serious crime and how would the punishment correspond to that? In countries (like the US) where Sharia is not the country's formal law system how would this differ?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 19:52
|
|
|
JustinMorgan posted:In countries where Sharia law is the law of the land, what is the court system like that decides if you have broken the law and what your punishment is? What would be considered a minor or serious crime and how would the punishment correspond to that? In countries (like the US) where Sharia is not the country's formal law system how would this differ? For your third question about handling it in places where there aren't legally-binding sharia laws, it's more or less a matter for the individual, I'd think. At least in the US, there aren't any kind of agreed-upon formal sharia court systems outside the actual legal system that I know of. HuffPo actually has a pretty good breakdown on this topic in general: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813.html But yeah hopefully someone who knows more about this than I do will be able to give a clearer answer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2015 20:11
|
|
|
JustinMorgan posted:In countries where Sharia law is the law of the land, what is the court system like that decides if you have broken the law and what your punishment is? What would be considered a minor or serious crime and how would the punishment correspond to that? In countries (like the US) where Sharia is not the country's formal law system how would this differ? In most modern Muslim countries, there are 2 court systems, often confused by westerners and especially the western media. There are civil courts and there are Shari'ah courts. Civil courts are court systems whose legacy is in former colonial rule established by the British, German, French, Italian, Dutch and other former European colonial empires. Then you have the Shari'ah courts whose legacy is in the former Islamic Empire which was established since the death of the Prophet and built upon for centuries by many Caliphates since and in many cases influenced by colonial rulers. Many of the laws are still evolving and there is often conflict between the two. It is difficult to group them all under one umbrella because former colonial law was particularly brutal when dealing with and suppressing local Muslim populations. The Islamic Shari'ah was also tainted by many brutal colonial laws imposed by European empires as a means of suppression as well as many subsequent Muslim Caliphs who were more interested in suppression and self preservation than establishing Justice in the land based on early Islamic principles. The same holds true today among the monarchies, dictatorships and republics of the governments in Muslim countries today. Shari'ah courts are not the only court system that deals with the very same court cases. It can depend on a number of factors, but mostly all cases initially go to a civil court. However, people can choose to submit their cases to a Shari'ah court. To my knowledge, this is commonly done in marriage and divorce cases. In some of the extreme cases judgements are made and punishments, like say adultery or murder etc, are often meted out in ways contrary to Islamic teaching. This is because of the history or the governing parties that dates back from unjust Caliphs, colonial rulers from (medieval-Christian) Europe and the modern ruling parties set in place by colonial Europe as a condition of state independence (puppet governments). In the USA and other countries where non-Muslims rule, Muslims are required by the Shari'ah in those countries to abide by their "Oaths of Citizenship". The fatawah made (rulings) by the scholars tell us that this includes Muslims who are born citizens, naturalized citizens, temporary residents and the like. Abiding by our oaths (in all areas of our lives) is paramount. The only time we have the religious right to disobey or stand up to our governments is if they try to get us to abandon Islam, ie to become non-Muslim. So, we can establish Shari'ah courts in the USA or non-Muslim nation, but we are to abide by its laws regardless, unless they require us to accept that there are more Gods than One God, God does not exist, or God has partners (violation of the first pillar of Islam that makes one a non-Muslim). Shari'ah is never 'Imposed' but is willingly submitted to. Some laws in the USA for example give us the ability to establish a sort of proxy shari'ah authority to a limited extent. For example, Muslims believe that marriage is a contract between God and the couple, not the state and the couple. So, typically what is supposed to happen is the Shari'ah defines the terms, contract is drawn up for the couple, the couple gets married in a "nikkah" ceremony and should there be a divorce the Shari'ah defines how property is divided and insures the rights of any kids are cared for, alimony etc. So, what often happens in non-Muslim countries like the USA (if the couple desires to do this), the two people getting married will have 2 marriage ceremonies, one civil (US Law) and one religious (Nikkah). According to Shari'ah by having a Nikkah we have the same rights as a civil marriage in the USA, however it is not enforceable especially in matters of a divorce. So, we have a civil marriage in addition to the nikkah to insure that the same laws are legally enforceable. We can further write up a "General Contract" for the nikkah that is legally binding according to US law, that further refines the agreement the two have together according to Shari'ah requirements in the case of a divorce. This contract is written up within the parameters of the US law and cannot contradict it (such as in the case of particulars of child custody; particulars of financial support or whatever), but where US law allows it can be agreed on and enforced (typically property rights). tldr; Muslims must abide by their Oaths of Citizenship and the laws of the land, unless that country legislates that we deny God, the nature of His Oneness or any other aspect of the first pillar of Islam. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Oct 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2015 06:22
|
|
|
Amun Khonsu posted:It is both a religious and a culture thing. Hi everyone, I'm one of the people popping over from the liturgical christianity thread. The question of veils is just about the single most discussed question about islam in Europe. So I've read up on it a bit. It seems the Koran does not say very much about it, from what I know there are two places that refer to how women should dress: - one says "women, be modest, don't show off your [jewelry] and pull your headscarf over your [chest]" - the other tells a story about how the prophet's wives (or maybe muslim women in general) were being molested in some city, so he advised them to pull their coat over their head. In the first, it's not super sure what is meant by the words I've put in brackets, and various people interpret "jewelry" to mean any beautiful part of the woman, possibly including her face. The second part has a more complex explanation, dealing with how honorable women were maybe traditionally confined to the house in that city. So the muslim women were prescribed a form of dress that physically made them less accessible and also marked them as under the protection of the muslim community, so people would not mistake them for stray women. While I see how you could arrive at "mandatory headscarf" from that, it's not really in the text explicitly. The "only show face and hands" thing is from hadith. Then again, there's also at least one hadith where it says it's honorable for men to veil up as well. I think the people who say they're doing it for religious reasons mostly live in countries where most women are not muslim and do not wear veils. It sets them apart, makes them recognizable as muslims and makes them feel more pious. On the other hand, women who come from countries where it's mandatory or super common tend to just do it out of habit. Am I totally wrong about any of this? I'd really like to ask Tendai, you've said that you consider the hadith optional, do you believe that covering the hair is mandated in the Koran, or is it one of the hadith things you agree with?
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2015 06:44
|
|
|
pidan posted:Hi everyone, I'm one of the people popping over from the liturgical christianity thread. Hi Pidan. Regarding your question. I will post this translation which is consistent with other scholars who translate the verse to help. I can't speak for Tendai, though  Quran 24:31 "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss." - Yusuf Ali Translation I take this to be primarily addressing a woman's beauty, not jewlry. Although what is beautiful about a woman is often accessorized by their jewelry. Attracting members of the opposite sex is reserved for a woman's husband and we are not to encourage adultery or fornication (inappropriate sexual conduct). You are right that this is not only for women, although this verse specifically addresses women's beauty. In the previous verse, Allah instructs men first, Quran 24:30 "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." Men and women have an 'awrah' (area of modesty; intimate parts) which is to be covered. Hijab means "to cover" and does not specifically refer to a woman's headscarf. So, men and women are to wear "hijab" to cover their "awrah". It also is a source of identity and social protection in addition to a standard of modesty. A man wearing a beard is religiously mandated in the hadith as a source of "identity" (Sahih Muslim and others), women covering themselves properly is a social protection from aggressive men (stalkers, rapists, unwanted sexual advances, impression of lewdness, etc). The phrase, "they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear" is important and guides us to what is "necessary". In ancient Arabia during the time of the Prophet the men often worked hard jobs (few office worker then lol) and needed to be able to not be hindered by full upper body covering. So their "necessary" awrah is from their navel to their knee (and some ppl say their beard is their hijab as well). Most women relied on their men to provide and didn't work except to care for the household and kids. So their awrah was everything except "what is necessary". Scholars commonly interpret this to mean the exposed portions of a woman's body can be "face, hands and feet" are all that is "necessary". EDIT to add: Just as a qualifier, I am married to a Muslim woman who does not wear a headscarf or veil. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Oct 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2015 07:21
|
|
|
Hello sorry it took me so long to respond, I've spent the day being Mad On The Internet and yelling at people and then took a nap because I needed to chill out. SO.pidan posted:SSSSSTUFF! quote:And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. quote:And when you ask of them (women) any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain. quote:O you who believe, enter not the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished -- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken food, disperse -- not seeking to listen to talk. Surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah forbears not from the truth. And when you ask of them (women) any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it behooves you not to give trouble to the Messenger of Allah, nor to marry his wives after him ever. Surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah. Anyhow, I just wandered totally off-topic SO. One of the points of hijab, both male and female, is to make yourself not the center of attention. It's why women generally aren't supposed to wear flashy gaudy things, which is often ignored because there are some truly heinous headscarf sets out there, complete with rhinestones, shiny fabric and sequins. So a lot of more moderate scholars argue that hijab is extremely dependent on the culture it's taking place in, in terms of what form it takes. A woman wearing a full-on burqa in America, for example, is going to draw a lot more attention than she would in the Afghanistan/Pakistan area, just like a woman wearing shorts and a tank top would draw more notice (and probably arrest) in Saudi Arabia. I keep that in mind, in terms of how I dress. I go for modesty, which comes naturally enough to me; I have never been comfortable enough with my body to wear things that show a lot of skin. My default is just about everything covered from the neck down, saving for the hands and feet. That's not a hard and fast rule or anything, just how I tend to dress. T-shirts and long-sleeved undershirts because I'm at 8600 feet and it's goddamn cold, long skirts because finding pants that fit and then hemming them is annoying as poo poo as a dwarf I don't wear a headscarf often these days. If I wear it out and about it's generally a sign that it's Ramadan and I do it more as kind of a way to have a constant reminder of the meaning of the holiday. I do wear one when I pray, again for kind of the same reason, it's a setting-apart of that moment from the rest of my day to day life, just a small ritual to mark the shift in focus. The most overt sign of it in public for me is the fact that I always have tasbih with me, a string with 99 beads that you use to meditate on the 99 names of Allah. THAT is for keeping me chill if I start getting anxious. But it mostly looks like just a bracelet wrapped around my wrist a few times. Really, I think the Qur'an just requires us (in the sense of Muslims, not shoving this at anyone else) to present ourselves modestly, as much as that varies from culture to culture. Attempts to force one extreme or the other on people are ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 01:55
|
|
|
Yeah, there's a clear requirement in the Qur'an to dress modestly for men and women that I think the fundamentalist strains of Islam really combine with Arab culture to say this is what the prophet wanted people to wear and act. I know there are issues with Muslim communities in China wearing silk, something that for Arabs is incredibly showy and definitely would be showing off but in the China area was pretty much regular clothes. I find it really interesting as a question of cultural sensitivity and the spirit vs. The letter of the law when you have Arabs or Muslim converts who choose to adopt culturally distinct clothing. I've talked to Yemen and Saudi students who can see that wearing shorts and a tank top doesn't stick out that much in a western country and wouldn't be acceptable in most Muslim countries but the idea of the reverse isn't thinkable for them. Basically the niqab is for them a modest outfit and the fact that it's drawing stares and a lot more attention than trousers and a long shirt is just the fault of the westerners. I guess is choosing to wear outfits to identify ones religious identification very clearly something that fits with the commandment to dress modestly? It's a fine line, and I guess I see it as a strength of Islam that there are scholars debating it. Although equally you can get pointlessly strict rules lawyer types as well, a friend of mine who hadn't prayed for years decided to do Ramadan. She got up for morning prayers and everything else but was almost in tears when one of the Malaysian workers informed her that her prayers for the day didn't count as her ankles were showing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 13:39
|
|
|
MrNemo posted:Although equally you can get pointlessly strict rules lawyer types as well, a friend of mine who hadn't prayed for years decided to do Ramadan. She got up for morning prayers and everything else but was almost in tears when one of the Malaysian workers informed her that her prayers for the day didn't count as her ankles were showing. Yes, the all-loving creator of the universe, the maker of billions of galaxies, cares whether your ankles showed during prayer or not. Of course! Some people are just too dumb to live, whether they are religious or not.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 13:58
|
|
|
waitwhatno posted:Yes, the all-loving creator of the universe, the maker of billions of galaxies, cares whether your ankles showed during prayer or not. Of course! Some people are just stupid. There is stuff like this a lot and having been involved in 3 major religions myself (along my path to Islam), I have seen this idiocy in all of them. All I have to say, when people start acting like God's mouthpiece is, "And all of them are coming to Him on the Day of Resurrection alone." Quran 19:95 So, the particulars of these things is none of their drat business. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Oct 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 14:12
|
|
|
MrNemo posted:Yeah, there's a clear requirement in the Qur'an to dress modestly for men and women that I think the fundamentalist strains of Islam really combine with Arab culture to say this is what the prophet wanted people to wear and act. MrNemo posted:I find it really interesting as a question of cultural sensitivity and the spirit vs. The letter of the law when you have Arabs or Muslim converts who choose to adopt culturally distinct clothing. I've talked to Yemen and Saudi students who can see that wearing shorts and a tank top doesn't stick out that much in a western country and wouldn't be acceptable in most Muslim countries but the idea of the reverse isn't thinkable for them. Basically the niqab is for them a modest outfit and the fact that it's drawing stares and a lot more attention than trousers and a long shirt is just the fault of the westerners. MrNemo posted:Although equally you can get pointlessly strict rules lawyer types as well, a friend of mine who hadn't prayed for years decided to do Ramadan. She got up for morning prayers and everything else but was almost in tears when one of the Malaysian workers informed her that her prayers for the day didn't count as her ankles were showing. quote:"Actions are but by intentions and each person will have but that which he intended." Amun Khonsu posted:All I have to say, when people start acting like God's mouthpiece is, "And all of them are coming to Him on the Day of Resurrection alone." Quran 19:95 So, the particulars of these things is none of their drat business. This is another one of those things that people kind of conveniently forget. The end of 18:26 says pretty bluntly that "He (Allah) does not make any one His associate in His Judgment" after making it clear that it isn't on us to judge. It's also just logically goddamn stupid because if you think Islam is the right path and you really want to show that to others (instead of just doing it to jerk off your piety dick), logic should say that you do that without being an rear end in a top hat to people, especially not strangers.But, welp. You know. ~ Unrelated thoughts I had today: A lot of Muslims are pretty okay with the idea of life existing on other worlds. Allah is described as Rabb al-alamin, lord of the worlds, so it can be taken to mean that yeah, there very well could be life on other planets. There's not the idea of human exceptionalism in that sense that I see in places like evangelical Christianity a lot of the time. Further unrelated to anything, I found these pictures of a pretty amazing minimalist mosque in Istanbul, Sancaklar:   This is extremely my poo poo, it totally portrays to me the way Islam has always felt to me as being stripped down of the formality and fanciness.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 17:08
|
|
|
That architecture, for whatever reason, reminds me of an airport terminal.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
goose fleet posted:That architecture, for whatever reason, reminds me of an airport terminal. Actually at first I thought that was concrete and was horrified at how much that must loving hurt to pray on but no apparently it's gray carpet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 17:15
|
|
|
I would say the co-worker who told her that wasn't really trying to be a dick, it was more of a 'oh man it's really great that you're being more devout but based on what you're wearing you weren't properly clean for the prayers so what you did today doesn't count. It really sucks because I can see you're trying really hard!' He seemed to be more sympathetic and didn't want her to miss out on doing her full prayer obligation (i.e. she'd have to do another day of fasting to make up for it). It was more a consequence that clearly that's the tradition he'd grown up with (and didn't seem to be alone by a long way) that if you're not fully kosher (for want of a better term in my head) then the prayers don't count and if you're not praying the fasting doesn't count. It wasn't malicious, I don't think any of the Malays I encountered acted that way with their faith, but it was common that they were incredibly strict on the form of worship above the intent. Also on the double standards thing, nothing will ever eclipse seeing an Arab guy and his wife in Kuala Lumpur. She was a couple of paces behind him in a full Niqab in 30c heat and high humidity. He was up fron in shorts, flip flops, a couple of gaudy necklaces and a sleeveless t-shirt with 'Free Mustache Rides' on it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 17:22
|
|
|
MrNemo posted:I would say the co-worker who told her that wasn't really trying to be a dick, it was more of a 'oh man it's really great that you're being more devout but based on what you're wearing you weren't properly clean for the prayers so what you did today doesn't count. It really sucks because I can see you're trying really hard!' He seemed to be more sympathetic and didn't want her to miss out on doing her full prayer obligation (i.e. she'd have to do another day of fasting to make up for it). It was more a consequence that clearly that's the tradition he'd grown up with (and didn't seem to be alone by a long way) that if you're not fully kosher (for want of a better term in my head) then the prayers don't count and if you're not praying the fasting doesn't count. It wasn't malicious, I don't think any of the Malays I encountered acted that way with their faith, but it was common that they were incredibly strict on the form of worship above the intent. Im sure it wasnt malicious (it did cause her harm since she was in tears) but telling ppl that their prayers dont count is a judgement against the intention (niyyah) of a person, a judgement that only Allah can make. In my opinion, judging the niyyah of a person is a form of shirk because then we place ourselves in the role of Allah to make a judgement on what only he would know. "He knows what is in the heavens and on earth; and He knows what ye conceal and what ye reveal: yea, Allah knows well the (secrets) of (all) hearts." Qur'an 64:44 One of the common judgements the majority of scholars make (even the most strict ones that I know) regarding people who have the honest intention to fulfil a duty to Allah, and fail to fulfil a requirement or prerequisite of that duty (ignorance, accidental or even forgetfulness), is that it still counts. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Oct 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 17:41
|
|
|
Exactly. Intention is huge in Islam, and particularly in Sufi thought. Gonna steal a thing I said before:quote:Ihsan is one of three parts to Islam, the other two being islam and iman. Islam in this sense refers to the things one SHOULD do. Iman refers to WHY one should do them. Ihsan, "perfection," refers to the intention behind doing them. Traditional Islamic theologians focus much more on iman than ihsan and that's one of the things that separate Sufi scholars.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
Thank you both for answering my questing so thoughtfully!Tendai posted:Exactly. Intention is huge in Islam, and particularly in Sufi thought. I've always felt that Islam is pretty extremely focused on following a set of clearly defined rules. I mean, both Jews and Christians have teachings along the lines of: Galatians posted:For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Whereas the Koran is full of detailed lists of people you're allowed to show your beauty to, rules for who gets what percentage of your inheritance, and times of day when you should pray. On another note, today while walking around town I saw a group of maybe a hundred muslims, mostly women, walking around with banners. On the banners were names of women from Mohammed's time (Zaynab, Aisha, Fatimah, Maria) and one had a quote from some Imam (all in Latin script, the quote in this area's language). The banners also had a bunch of holes cut in them. Is today a holiday?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 18:43
|
|
|
That's true for Christians, but Orthodox Jews follow all sorts of extremely detailed rules. Look up what exactly counts as kosher or how you're supposed to observe Shabbat for some examples.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 18:48
|
|
|
I'd say Orthodox Judaism gets into the kind of ridiculous levels of following the letter rather than the spirit of a law, to the extent that some of the Rabbinical stories are about finding ways to get around the laws (including one Rabbi managing to outwit G-d, who is suitable pleased with his clever follower). I'd say that in terms of the actual writings of most learned people and Islam itself there definitely is the idea that intention trumps practice but in my experience that can change when you're dealing with people brought up in the religion. I guess it's something which every religion deals with, where the theology and doctrines meet with the actual practices of the majority of the laity. In this case I can state that pretty much all of these Muslims thought that if you haven't observed all the correct rituals before prayers (properly washed, dressed correctly, avoided farting, etc.) God wouldnt accept your prayers. I'm not saying that's what the Qur'an or even any Imams teach, I think it probably is the case that if you don't bother to wash before prayers because you're too lazy then, according to doctrine, God won't accept your prayers because you obviously don't have any real intention behind them. I think people don't really understand that nuance though, they're taught as kids, 'you have to do A, B and C before you pray or God won't accept it.' So that's what they think. It's been interesting reading this thread, I'd like to thank everyone more knowledgeable than me (so everyone else ) for posting cool stuff.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 19:43
|
|
|
pidan posted:I've always felt that Islam is pretty extremely focused on following a set of clearly defined rules. I mean, both Jews and Christians have teachings along the lines of: pidan posted:On another note, today while walking around town I saw a group of maybe a hundred muslims, mostly women, walking around with banners. On the banners were names of women from Mohammed's time (Zaynab, Aisha, Fatimah, Maria) and one had a quote from some Imam (all in Latin script, the quote in this area's language). The banners also had a bunch of holes cut in them. Is today a holiday? Well hmm. All I can think of is that yesterday was Ashura. This is a holiday which, as you might have noticed due to the fuckton of Shi'a processions/celebrations getting bombed/attacked recently in the news, is a big source of controversy between Shia and Sunni. Everyone celebrates that day, but both groups do it for a different reason: For Sunni it commemorates the saving of Moses from the Pharaoh and also some historical connotation, while for the Shi'a (especially the Twelver Shi'a) it is a hugely important historical holiday commemorating the Battle of Karbala and the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali, Muhammad's grandson. Remember that Shi'a split because they believed in lineal blood descent being the decision-making factor in choosing a leader, so this is a big thing. Tensions flare high and bad poo poo happens, especially since in a lot of countries the Shi'a are very much a minority with all the negative treatment that status can bring with it. That's the most recent holiday. Unless there's been some haziness with the lunar calendar (which can happen) and some places are doing it on the 24th of October by the standard calendar rather than the 23rd... I don't know. I also doubt that it would be that because anyone who's hardcore about Ashura is not going to list Fatimah and Aisha together. Fatimah was Muhammad's daughter; both groups respect her but Shi'a REALLY respect her because, again, of that whole blood-descent issue for example. Aisha is the wife he married as a child; she is seen as a figure to emulate by many Sunni, but the average Shi'a opinion of her ranges from grudging acceptance of her existence to "SHE WAS A LYING, SCHEMING WHORE WHO TURNED THE PROPHET AWAY FROM HIS DAUGHTER AND FAMILY." Like, in some areas parents will literally call their daughter "you aisha" if she's misbehaving or not listening.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
Tendai posted:That's the most recent holiday. Unless there's been some haziness with the lunar calendar (which can happen) and some places are doing it on the 24th of October by the standard calendar rather than the 23rd... I don't know. I also doubt that it would be that because anyone who's hardcore about Ashura is not going to list Fatimah and Aisha together. Fatimah was Muhammad's daughter; both groups respect her but Shi'a REALLY respect her because, again, of that whole blood-descent issue for example. Aisha is the wife he married as a child; she is seen as a figure to emulate by many Sunni, but the average Shi'a opinion of her ranges from grudging acceptance of her existence to "SHE WAS A LYING, SCHEMING WHORE WHO TURNED THE PROPHET AWAY FROM HIS DAUGHTER AND FAMILY." Like, in some areas parents will literally call their daughter "you aisha" if she's misbehaving or not listening. Oh, that's really interesting. I always thought everybody loved Aisha. The largest name was Zaynab, who is apparently connected to the Karbala battle. So the protesters / celebrants must have been Shiites, I never knew we had those here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2015 20:59
|
|
|
pidan posted:I've always felt that Islam is pretty extremely focused on following a set of clearly defined rules. I mean, both Jews and Christians have teachings along the lines of: wait, what? I'm sure that's not true, even for Christianity. The majority of Christians in the world are Catholics, and they have a ridiculous amount of micromanaging rules for everyday life. There are rules on when to eat fish, how to pray, how to confess and how to gently caress. It's almost totalitarian.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
Along the lines of Muslims, Christians and Jews, I found a video of the Islamic Call to Prayer in a packed Church. It features the call to prayer from an Imam standing next to a Jewish Rabbi and Christian Minister. If you're interested in hearing a beautiful recitation, have a look. The description of the video gives more details about the Call to Prayer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QOKG_JZ6fA
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2015 03:51
|
|
|
How do Ibadis differ from the other two big branches?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2015 03:53
|
|
|
waitwhatno posted:wait, what?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2015 05:05
|
|
|
Id say the ratio of legalism from neo-conservative to neo-liberal are roughly the same in Judaism, Chistrianity and Islam. This opinion just from my personal experience.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2015 06:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:58 |
|
|
waitwhatno posted:wait, what? It's true that Catholicism has a lot of rules. They cover different areas of life than the islamic rules (more rules about sex, fewer about inheritance). But I still feel like there's a difference: In Catholicism, the details of the rules are considered to be derived from some scriptural or philosophical basis. They're not normally extracted directly from the bible, and they're not considered to be rules directly set up by God himself. So the question of how many times you pray, or what you wear, are very context-dependent. For example, Catholics have rules about modesty, too, but they're perfectly fine with cultures where it's normal for women to walk around topless, or Catholics wearing normal bathing suits to the beach. Because God is not believed to have a list of acceptable clothing styles. In Islam, on the other hand, the Koran is considered to come directly from God. And it has some pretty detailed sets of rules: Wikipedia posted:The Qur'an introduced a number of different rights and restrictions on matters of inheritance, including general improvements to the treatment of women and family life.[1] The Qur'an also presented efforts to fix the laws of inheritance, and thus forming a complete legal system. This development was in contrast to pre-Islamic societies where rules of inheritance varied considerably.[1] Furthermore, the Qur'an introduced additional heirs that were not entitled inheritance in pre-Islamic times, mentioning nine relatives specifically of which six were female and three were male. The laws of inheritance in the Qur'an also included other male relatives, like the husband and half-brothers from the mother’s side, which were excluded from inheritance in old customs. The heirs mentioned in the Qur'an are the mother, father, husband, wife, daughter, uterine brother, full sister, uterine sister, and consanguine sister.[2] So it seems there's very little wiggle room from the get-go. In that it's probably closer to Judaism, but even in Judaism the rules are not considered to be things God has directly ordered for all people in the world. There's Jews who believe some rules from the Tora don't need to be followed at all any more, others who feel they don't need to be followed while there's no temple, and either way the rules only apply to Jews. The list of rules non-jewish people have to follow for Jews to be OK with them is like seven items long. I totally agree that in practice, there's people who go crazy about the rules, as well as people wo don't care at all, in each of the three religions. But in my experience, even the most casually religious muslim does the Ramadan fast and refuses to eat pork and probably wears a headscarf if they're female. On the other hand, actually sticking with whatever you gave up for lent is considered a sign of pretty extreme devotion by the Catholics I know 
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2015 07:33
|
|