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I just want an epilogue of hipster punk time wizard lesbians chilling out and taking a breather after the roughest week ever but I guess I'll have to turn to anime for that
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Oct 22, 2015 19:40
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| # ? May 30, 2024 00:38 |
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What you don't know is that the original ending pitted sticking with Chloe vs ALL HUMAN LIFE ON EARTH, leading to the two escaping the planet-tornado in the last space rocket (conveniently owned by the Prescotts). The writers felt it was a little heavy handed though.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:03
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I really don't think We're supposed to assume that every single person in town died. Like, Kate is off in the hospital, which isn't beachfront, and is a type of institution that generally has good plans for natural disasters. I would bet she's getting out of this. People are for sure dead there, but it isn't the town is killed off to the last man. As to saving Joyce, if Joyce had to choose between herself and Chloe, she'd tell you to save Chloe in a second. The more we talk about all of this, the more I'm moving to the camp of "why the gently caress do we assume Warren has some inside track on truth?" He's just a sci-fi nerd giving a theory based on movies. There is so much background stuff in the game that hints towards the storm coming independent of Max's choices. Like the "vortex is coming soon" posters presumably exist before Max starts messing with time.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:07
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morallyobjected posted:I just want an epilogue of hipster punk time wizard lesbians chilling out and taking a breather after the roughest week ever but I guess I'll have to turn to anime for that This would be the best ending.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:13
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I can't remember, how does David find the bunker again?
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Oct 22, 2015 20:16
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sout posted:I can't remember, how does David find the bunker again? He comments on how you and Chloe did a good job putting everything together, so presumably he finds the information board in Chloe's room.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:17
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I want to know why David is terrible at CQC
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Oct 22, 2015 20:19
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Artix posted:He comments on how you and Chloe did a good job putting everything together, so presumably he finds the information board in Chloe's room. Yeah, there's an even a lingering shot of Chloe's PC where she looked up the location of the barn when you leave in Episode 4.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:19
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Karnegal posted:I really don't think We're supposed to assume that every single person in town died. Like, Kate is off in the hospital, which isn't beachfront, and is a type of institution that generally has good plans for natural disasters. I would bet she's getting out of this. People are for sure dead there, but it isn't the town is killed off to the last man. As to saving Joyce, if Joyce had to choose between herself and Chloe, she'd tell you to save Chloe in a second. The more we talk about all of this, the more I'm moving to the camp of "why the gently caress do we assume Warren has some inside track on truth?" He's just a sci-fi nerd giving a theory based on movies. There is so much background stuff in the game that hints towards the storm coming independent of Max's choices. Like the "vortex is coming soon" posters presumably exist before Max starts messing with time. Red Herring, thsoe are posters for the Vortex Club party.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:22
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Dexo posted:Red Herring, thsoe are posters for the Vortex Club party. I'm aware - but if we're going for some sort of universe pushing towards one thing or the other, then all of the "end is nigh" "here comes the vortex" points towards the tornado as inevitable and you sacrificing Chloe to stop it as the unnatural choice.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:40
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a kitten posted:Yeah this. I mean, i certainly know there's a whole different ending, but all Max has to go on is Warren's speculation and a gut feeling. As far as she knows letting Chloe die leads to an exponentially worse outcome. Taking the other choice means the only lesson she/I've leaned is "don't help someone, even if given the opportunity to" Yeah this is what I keep coming back to. There's no proof that letting Chloe die stops the tornado, except for the meta-reality of a world in which we know this is a video game and we can revert a save or watch the other ending on youtube. Considered as a self contained story world, the only evidence the characters have to go on is that in this week of a lot of weird-rear end poo poo happening, a pretty weird-rear end thing also happened to Max, namely that she found out she's a time-wizard. And the characters are apparently too meta-aware of time-travel story cliches and decide that they must be in a 'you can't change fate' story. But the story itself never proves this. I mean, sure, a lot of supernatural things happen, prophetic dreams, time wizardry, unseasonal snow, kamikaze wildlife. But at no point is there any causal relation proven between one weird thing and another. Who says time powers caused the tornado? Maybe the tornado caused the time powers, because it is a tornado that loves gay teens and wants to see them live happily ever after. (But it also has a real hatred for beachfront property.) Makes as much sense, and more importantly has as much in-universe proof as the accepted reasoning. 
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Oct 22, 2015 20:45
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Karnegal posted:I really don't think We're supposed to assume that every single person in town died. Like, Kate is off in the hospital, which isn't beachfront, and is a type of institution that generally has good plans for natural disasters. I would bet she's getting out of this. People are for sure dead there, but it isn't the town is killed off to the last man. As to saving Joyce, if Joyce had to choose between herself and Chloe, she'd tell you to save Chloe in a second. The more we talk about all of this, the more I'm moving to the camp of "why the gently caress do we assume Warren has some inside track on truth?" He's just a sci-fi nerd giving a theory based on movies. There is so much background stuff in the game that hints towards the storm coming independent of Max's choices. Like the "vortex is coming soon" posters presumably exist before Max starts messing with time. Warren is temporarily possessed by the devs to tell us about the story's sudden change in direction. The tornado is now obviously Max's fault (please ignore any and all divine flood references present up to this point) and you should not question any of this (please ignore any magical animal spirits that may or may not have guided you and watched over you throughout the game). Even if you wanted to question it, you can't: as soon as Professor Mouthpiece ends his lecture, the topic of conversation immediately changes back to Jefferson leaving you with no dialogue option to contest any of it.
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Oct 22, 2015 20:50
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Yeah, my big problem with the ending was that the entire premise behind it's binary choice nature was totally unconvincing to me. Oh, so the tornado was caused by me using my time powers? Why, exactly? Got any proof of that? No? This, by the way, is the tornado that I had a vision of before I even got those powers, let alone used them? Unless simply having an involuntary vision counts as using my powers, in which case it isn't on my conscience at all. Oh, but if I go back and let Chloe die as well as letting Jefferson continue to run around serial-killering it up (yeah, I know he doesn't, but I didn't know that when I had to make the decision, and Max certainly didn't) then that will stop the tornado? Really? Any proof for that either? No? So the choice boils down to: A) Save my friend, hope that some of the townsfolk survive the disaster, because I have no reason to assume that it's literally going to extinguish all life B) Let my friend die, let a serial killer continue murdering people, probably let Kate Marsh kill herself (can't act on any of my foreknowledge remember, or it'll be inexplicable fate-tornado time again) and hope that this stops the tornado. With no real evidence whatsoever that it will. Yeah, real tough decision there. Without some more explanation behind exactly what was up with Max's powers, there was no good reason to make the call that they seemed to be trying to set up as the 'moral' one, because there was no evidence it would work out the way they implied.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:02
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The nightmare was cool, but it is also sadly the exact point the game gives up on having a proper ending.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:04
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I completely agree with BobTheJanitor and The_White_Crane. Other than it being a video game and being able to know that's what happens how are we sure that you can stop the tornado? You clearly see the tornado before you do anything timey-wimey so why assume that you can stop it by letting Chloe die? Seems like a huge risk to take when everything else has ended up worse. Especially when you consider Max is going to be on autopilot for a full week not knowing Jefferson wants to kill her. She might not even be alive in the other timeline by Friday with the information we have standing there on the cliff. Indrazar fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 21:17
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I demand scientific proof that the time fuckery that resulted from saving Chloe which caused all the time rewinds causes the storm. Where is the science in my tween story? They need to get Greg Bear to write the next game.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:23
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Nathan could potentially worm his way out of getting busted or alternatively from ratting out Jefferson. Big daddy money and all. The story wraps that issue up with a nice bow but when making the choice the player can't assume anything. As it happens, everything turns out great for everyone not-chloe-and-her-family when going with that option, which isn't... very interesting. So the choice boil down to be about how many would you sacrifice to have Chloe stick around; A handful? A dozen? Fifty-two? A whole town? "Loads"? Look we got a woodchipper set up right here and are just feeding people into it, think quickly!
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Oct 22, 2015 21:29
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monster on a stick posted:I demand scientific proof that the time fuckery that resulted from saving Chloe which caused all the time rewinds causes the storm. Where is the science in my tween story? They need to get Greg Bear to write the next game. See, no one really cares about proof, just internal consistency. We're talking about a fantasy superpower here. It has no rules except what the author sets. The justification for those rules can't just be 'other fantasy stories did it this way' unless you are a lovely hack writer. If you're writing a terrible mystery story in which the butler did it, the detective still has to prove it using the clues given within the narrative. He can't gather everyone in the smoking lounge for the big reveal and then say 'it was the butler, I know this because it's always the butler, it's a well-worn cliche!' At least, not if the author doesn't want to get mobbed.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:42
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NATHAN TAKES DOWN JEFFERSON, BUT I'M GOING TO LOUDLY IGNORE THAT TO PRETEND I HAVE A POINT. I mean, for fucks sake, the ending shows it works, what are you even complaining about?
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Oct 22, 2015 21:44
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monster on a stick posted:I demand scientific proof that the time fuckery that resulted from saving Chloe which caused all the time rewinds causes the storm. Where is the science in my tween story? They need to get Greg Bear to write the next game. Look, I'm not asking for a loving monologue about tachyon flux here. I just want there to be some reason, any reason to believe that the consequences which the game implies will follow from your choice are actually likely. Because at the moment, literally the only reason you have to think that Max's powers caused the tornado is "Warren said so and Max instantly and unquestioningly believed it." wyoming posted:NATHAN TAKES DOWN JEFFERSON, BUT I'M GOING TO LOUDLY IGNORE THAT TO PRETEND I HAVE A POINT. Because I didn't see that ending. Max didn't see that ending. The choice is presented to the player, and to Max, without them knowing that, which means that when you are making the choice as far as you know, you're choosing to let Jefferson go on murdering people. The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 21:44
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It's implied (or stated) that the drugs that killed Rachel were supplied by Frank, is this what's believed to have happened or something that he just suggests in shock if you tell him about Rachel? I don't recall him being implicated in the ending photographs like Jefferson.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:46
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Considering that they were doing a good job on the consistency front with episodes 1-4 it is all the more disappointing when they do this in episode 5.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:48
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She had visions of the tornado, but nothing weird actually happened until she was using her powers. Chole was fated to die, and as Chole said, she kept dying or almost dying in various ways and Max kept messing with time more and more to save her. When you talk to Warren in the dinner during the storm, he explains that when Max reversed time, she caused a chain reaction, "even in the environment", then eludes to the final choice she will have to make. So I don't think it's a big stretch for Max to know Arcadia is saved by letting Chloe die and not using any rewind powers in the original timeline. I thought the final episode was pretty intense and felt a lot different than the slice of life, fun, time adventure game from ep 1. It got dark real fast. In fact I don't even want to go back through the nightmare and kidnap sequences to get the album completions for ep 5.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:49
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sout posted:It's implied (or stated) that the drugs that killed Rachel were supplied by Frank, is this what's believed to have happened or something that he just suggests in shock if you tell him about Rachel? Well since he was supplying drugs to most of the town, and to Nathan in particular, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:49
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Karnegal posted:I really don't think We're supposed to assume that every single person in town died. The girls do drive by a decidedly un-exploded diner. sout posted:It's implied (or stated) that the drugs that killed Rachel were supplied by Frank, is this what's believed to have happened or something that he just suggests in shock if you tell him about Rachel? Jefferson straight up tells you she died from an OD.
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Oct 22, 2015 21:51
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Pawn 17 posted:She had visions of the tornado, but nothing weird actually happened until she was using her powers. If you think visions are 'nothing weird', I'm not sure what to say. Pawn 17 posted:Chole was fated to die, [citation needed] Pawn 17 posted:When you talk to Warren in the dinner during the storm, he explains that when Max reversed time, she caused a chain reaction, "even in the environment", then eludes to the final choice she will have to make. So I don't think it's a big stretch for Max to know Arcadia is saved by letting Chloe die and not using any rewind powers in the original timeline. Oh yes, noted magic time power expert Warren, who literally just found out about Max's abilities two minutes ago. If he says so, well!
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Oct 22, 2015 21:54
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So something gave Max powers but she's forbidden from actually using them. And the white doe guiding her is because Rachel wants revenge. Given the headspace I/Max was in when that decision came up there was no hesitation togo with saving Chloe. Making yet another huge change and just hoping that this time it would be the right choice just wasn't an option. I learned "don't gently caress with time" the hard way, so I stopped loving with it. a kitten fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 21:56
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The_White_Crane posted:Because at the moment, literally the only reason you have to think that Max's powers caused the tornado is "Warren said so and Max instantly and unquestioningly believed it." If the nightmare part was actually reality breaking down and then showing that the use of Max's powers made it worse then we would have had direct "evidence" of the tornado's origin. Form here it would have made that part seem less out of place while letting them actually explain something without using techno babble or "cuz Warren said so".
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Oct 22, 2015 21:57
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morallyobjected posted:I just want an epilogue of hipster punk time wizard lesbians chilling out and taking a breather after the roughest week ever but I guess I'll have to turn to anime for that Try Symphogear, it's more j-pop wizard lesbians though.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:00
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The Max we play is not the first Max to go through the timeline, as evidenced by the nightmare convo with yourself, the way the entire game starts as if it was altered from a Polaroid jump and many other contextual clues. It's just one of the timelines, maybe the first, that has a forward resolution.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:02
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The_White_Crane posted:Oh yes, noted magic time power expert Warren, who literally just found out about Max's abilities two minutes ago. If he says so, well! Warren is another time traveler and his time-traveling self snaps back into non-traveling self when Max shows up at the diner. That's why he was so quick to accept Max's explanation. Duh. 
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Oct 22, 2015 22:02
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The_White_Crane posted:Because I didn't see that ending. That's still not a loving point, they were making a decision based on what they knew, are you really complaining that they were right? Sorry you're salty about the ending you didn't chose, I guess. a kitten posted:So something gave Max powers but she's forbidden from actually using them. And the white doe guiding her is because Rachel wants revenge. Right with ya, the "supernatural" didn't stop mattering, the doe served it's purpose, and the choice of how to stop loving with time is your own.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:03
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I think the debate is Is the tornado a result of Max's powers, or was the tornado inevitable but through the use of Max's powers and the sacrifice of Chloe you can avert it? Caros's argument that the natural progression of events IS Max reversing time to save Chloe as she does it instinctively without even knowing she has time powers. Given this, she doesn't make a choice to rewind time because she has no reason to believe that it is even possible to do so. If that's the case, then we also accept that the tornado was going to happen anyway unless we interfered with it. Oddly enough, Max changing the original timeline means going back in time and not saving Chloe. I think we have to assume that the beginning of episode 1 is a vision as opposed to time travel. Why isn't it time travel? In the vision, Max wakes up on the ground and has no idea what's going on -she says, "how'd I get here, and where is here?". The only way that this would be time travel is if we're in an autopilot session. If we are on autopilot then it's because Max has time traveled back from a starting point that is AFTER the storm. This would make no sense with either ending. In the save Chloe ending, all your viable photos have been destroyed, so how are you getting back? In the sacrifice Chloe ending, you have presumably accepted that you can't use your powers, so what point would there be in doing so? You couldn't even be going back to see Chloe again because you'd be on auto-pilot the whole time. Given that the storm is a vision that we see prior to Max using her powers for the first time, we can see it as a prophetic vision of what's coming, but we don't have any solid grounds to assume that it's our job to stop it. Max doesn't even really believe this since she's spending her time trying to solve Rachael's murder and find out who was responsible as opposed to convincing people that a storm is coming. At the very least, you could have told Warren, who will clearly believe anything, to go to a safe place. exquisite tea posted:The Max we play is not the first Max to go through the timeline, as evidenced by the nightmare convo with yourself, the way the entire game starts as if it was altered from a Polaroid jump and many other contextual clues. It's just one of the timelines, maybe the first, that has a forward resolution. I don't think anything in the nightmare is "proof" of anything as it's all in Max's unconscious head.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:09
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The_White_Crane posted:If you think visions are 'nothing weird', I'm not sure what to say. Well, we don't know when exactly Max got her powers and if the visions of the future are tied to that or not. If you can accept she can change time, why not accept she can have visions of a possible future? The_White_Crane posted:[citation needed] There is no citation needed, Chloe actually died when she was shot in the original timeline before any time rewinds. Max found out she could change that fact. But look at how many times Chloe dies or wants to die (like in the car accident timeline). And Max has to save her every time. The_White_Crane posted:Oh yes, noted magic time power expert Warren, who literally just found out about Max's abilities two minutes ago. If he says so, well! Well what? He is one of Max's closest friends and general science nerd. Why wouldn't she believe him? She has no other explanation for all the things that happen to the environment. And the very end she points to the tornado and says "I caused this". So it's obvious she believes it and knows sacrificing Chloe will change things. Chloe knows it herself. There doesn't need to be more "proof" than that for the story to hold together as is.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:09
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The_White_Crane posted:Oh yes, noted magic time power expert Warren, who literally just found out about Max's abilities two minutes ago. If he says so, well! Warren recommended Primer to Max, he at least has good taste in relatively complex time travel fiction.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:11
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exquisite tea posted:The Max we play is not the first Max to go through the timeline, as evidenced by the nightmare convo with yourself, the way the entire game starts as if it was altered from a Polaroid jump and many other contextual clues. It's just one of the timelines, maybe the first, that has a forward resolution. If you accept the multiverse theory in the game then you get both endings anyways when you go Bay over Bae since a Max stays behind anyways. And it prolly makes for an awkward conversation.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:12
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Pawn 17 posted:
Dude can't even finish his science class work without Max cheating for him.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:16
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wyoming posted:Right with ya, the "supernatural" didn't stop mattering, the doe served it's purpose, and the choice of how to stop loving with time is your own. How does a magical guiding entity mesh with all the freaky poo poo being Max's fault? As soon as Max stops using her powers, all the bad things stop happening and Nathan gets caught which leads to Jefferson's arrest and Rachel's discovery. Does the doe still show up? I'm guessing no? Then why give Max powers, why appear in the first place? Max being passive solves everything. Was the whole ordeal just to teach her a lesson? About what, playing God? Then you probably shouldn't have ended the story with the question: "Who do you want to sacrifice?". Note that it isn't "Who do you want to save?". There are no winners here. Everything is pointless. The correct course of action is inaction. Valar Morghulis.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:40
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I'm still annoyed that Chekhov's photograph, the class photo taken by Jefferson at the start of the school year several months back, also basically the first photo you see in game, even before the butterfly ended up not mattering at all. I was convinced going into Episode 5 that the final resolution was going to be using that photo to go back to the start of the year and somehow tipping yourself or someone else off about the dark room, where they would find Rachel still alive (we know she was missing for a month or two before we started the school year, but we don't know when Nathan dosed her) and her death was what was causing the tornado. Maybe I just wanted that because going back that far and resetting everything would also mean Kate was still alive... But no, instead I guess we get "you can have time powers but DON'T YOU DARE USE THEM!!!" Also, we used Warren's photo to go back to Thursday night, tipped David off to the dark room, then presumably just hid out for a whole day? Why not, you know... spend that day warning people (at LEAST our loved ones) and preparing for evacuation? I saved Chloe. gently caress you too, fate.
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Oct 22, 2015 22:49
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GOONS ARE MEAN
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wyoming posted:That's still not a loving point, they were making a decision based on what they knew, are you really complaining that they were right? Sorry you're salty about the ending you didn't chose, I guess. I'm complaining that they didn't "know" that! Even if I buy that they "knew" letting Chloe die would stop the tornado (and I really, really don't), that idea was predicated on the assumption that the tornado would be stopped if Max didn't alter the timeline in any way in which case they sure as gently caress didn't know that Jefferson's murder-spree would be prevented. Pawn 17 posted:Well what? He is one of Max's closest friends and general science nerd. Why wouldn't she believe him? She has no other explanation for all the things that happen to the environment. Yeah, when a high-school science nerd comes up with an idea about a phenomenon which is hitherto unheard of, I believe it unquestioningly and stake lives on their theory! I mean, I don't have any other explanation, and everyone knows that if only one person can come up with an answer then that answer is definitely right! The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 22:52
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