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Blinky2099 posted:What are typical signing bonuses at engineering companies (google, apple, smaller companies/startups, etc?) What's the typical commitment required to keep the whole bonus (1yr? 2? 4?) I assume they vastly vary based on position and experience. Yes, they have a great deal of variability. I can speak to the bonuses given for new grad software development hires at big tech companies in the Bay Area; initial offers range from 15k (Google) to 75k (Facebook intern conversions) with 1 year of commitment being standard.
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Oct 15, 2015 23:13
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Steely Glint posted:Yes, they have a great deal of variability. I can speak to the bonuses given for new grad software development hires at big tech companies in the Bay Area; initial offers range from 15k (Google) to 75k (Facebook intern conversions) with 1 year of commitment being standard.
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Oct 15, 2015 23:15
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Hey all, I'm expecting a job offer today for a company that I'd really like to work for. Here's the scenario, I make garbage at my current job. When new company initially asked me for a range I told them 60-65k which is a good chunk more than I make now. The problem is that after doing the research and talking to other recruiters, the position that I'm applying for pays more like 70k. I'm assuming they're going to call with an offer in the initial 60-65k range. Will I look like a cock for basically saying "actually I realize I low-balled myself and expect a salary of $72000."? I would still absolutely take the offer even if they won't go above 60k (which I think they will), but I also want to set myself up for the future. I'm going to end up being pretty salty if all of my coworkers are making 10k+ more than me in the same position.
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Oct 19, 2015 18:09
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Tots posted:Hey all, I'm expecting a job offer today for a company that I'd really like to work for. Here's the scenario, I make garbage at my current job. When new company initially asked me for a range I told them 60-65k which is a good chunk more than I make now. The problem is that after doing the research and talking to other recruiters, the position that I'm applying for pays more like 70k. I'm assuming they're going to call with an offer in the initial 60-65k range. Will I look like a cock for basically saying "actually I realize I low-balled myself and expect a salary of $72000."? Yes you will look like a cock. You did everything in the wrong order, so now you can: - Suck it up, they might give you the top of the range you asked for, in which case you got the best you were imagining when you didn't do research. Hooray! They might also give you less than the top of your range. Why did you give a range? - Ask for what you're worth at $72k. You can bullshit your way around it and say you've been talking with other players in the market and now feel that your worth is more around $72k. It's just weaseley enough to sound like you might have a competing offer without outright lying. - Demand $72k and if they don't acquiesce, consider this a valuable learning experience as you continue interviewing, so that next time you get an offer you remember to first find out what you are worth, second to ask for it up front with a crisp, firm, single number, and third to stick by it until you get what you are worth. I'd go for the third option personally, but your aversion to looking like a cock may influence you differently.
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Oct 19, 2015 18:23
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You messed up, you might be able to still do something but it's harder for sure. Did you do anything like promise to accept if an offer is a that range? That would be the last nail in the coffin. Did they ask you if you are interviewing elsewhere? If so, did you tell them yes? If so, you could say you just got an offer for, say, 75,000, there's a reasonable chance they'll match it. If you said no, does your current job have a bonus system? You could say that you are concerned about missing out on your 2016 bonus(paid in february or something) by jumping ship and would like a bump to compensate for that (or at least a signing bonus). PS This is a really good thread that I pretty much read all of for no reason. It's pretty amazing how these short conversations with HR people end up being some of the most important meetings of one's entire career, and so many people just opt-out of thinking about it.
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Oct 20, 2015 20:06
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:You messed up, you might be able to still do something but it's harder for sure. Did you do anything like promise to accept if an offer is a that range? That would be the last nail in the coffin. Did they ask you if you are interviewing elsewhere? If so, did you tell them yes? If so, you could say you just got an offer for, say, 75,000, there's a reasonable chance they'll match it. If you said no, does your current job have a bonus system? You could say that you are concerned about missing out on your 2016 bonus(paid in february or something) by jumping ship and would like a bump to compensate for that (or at least a signing bonus). Well the one thing that I think is working for me is that they seem to just be in a hiring frenzy. I'm not really applying for a specific job/project. I'm applying to be a consultant at the company and their hiring me based on my skill sets/the expectation that I'll be able to provide value to projects in the future. I was one of like 20 people there of all different ages/skill levels, so I have a feeling that if I tell them that after some research/talking with competitors the market value with someone with my skillset is higher, then they might match. Also, I'm nervous-af right now. They were supposed to call Monday with an offer, but I haven't heard poo poo yet. Sent out a feeler email this morning. The other places that I had leads with are dragging their feet too.
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Oct 20, 2015 20:17
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Tots posted:Well the one thing that I think is working for me is that they seem to just be in a hiring frenzy. I'm not really applying for a specific job/project. I'm applying to be a consultant at the company and their hiring me based on my skill sets/the expectation that I'll be able to provide value to projects in the future. I was one of like 20 people there of all different ages/skill levels, so I have a feeling that if I tell them that after some research/talking with competitors the market value with someone with my skillset is higher, then they might match. Every time an offer is late (even just the written version after hashing out details on the phone/in person) I get all anxious and stuff, and it's never actually been for any reason. Don't pester them with emails though I guess it's weird if they didn't respond for two days after that first one. I'm guessing they're just busy for whatever reason or in the decision-making process.
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Oct 20, 2015 20:26
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I can't speak for the particular company, there are exceptions to every rule, but there is certainly value in making your negotiation strategy seem "good faith", and I think you kind of break that if you rescind your own offer of 60-65k. It's obviously not the same level as the company offering you 65k and then rescinding it, but it's in that ballpark. You could maybe negotiate some good perks as well - more vacation, better title, signing bonus, etc. None of those trip the "bad faith" flag like rescinding your offer straight up and playing hardball. Either way, I doubt asking for more will hurt. Still, don't feel like you owe them anything - if you join up and get a better offer a year from now, nothing's stopping you from jumping ship again. Yah, makes sense. I don't exactly plan on playing hard ball, I'm just going to be more or less up front by saying, "Listen I really would like to work at your company because it will be a great opportunity for my career, but it seems that my market value is a bit higher than I first thought. If you can get up to 70 I will take it immediately, if not I will just have to take a day or two to think about it." Which is all true. I feel like if I'm pleasant about the whole thing then the worst that will happen is they'll say "Sorry, you said your range caps at 65k and that's what we based extending this offer to you on." In which case I'll say "I understand" then try to negotiate a signing bonus then likely take the job regardless of the outcome (because it really is a great company career-wise).
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Oct 20, 2015 20:39
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The number one thing I've learned from this thread but still have not had the opportunity to test in real life is that you'll only be able to significantly increase your compensation if you jump ship--i.e., have competing offers in hand--yet here I am 3 years out of college and still at the same place that hired me off of Craigslist, and along the way I've made nearly 60% in wage increases from my starting pay. Going from an underpaid post-production grunt to capitalizing on other people's mistakes and departures makes me wonder whether I'll be subsequently useless in any other industry, lol.
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Oct 21, 2015 01:22
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I wouldn't say only, lots of companies are in fact good at paying people fair value. Those people don't come to this thread much, I'm guessing. That said, a change can if you feel that isn't happening. There are lots of situations where someone's skills or experience are being undervalued, and a transition will realize that value if done properly.
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Oct 21, 2015 01:43
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:The number one thing I've learned from this thread but still have not had the opportunity to test in real life is that you'll only be able to significantly increase your compensation if you jump ship--i.e., have competing offers in hand--yet here I am 3 years out of college and still at the same place that hired me off of Craigslist, and along the way I've made nearly 60% in wage increases from my starting pay. Going from an underpaid post-production grunt to capitalizing on other people's mistakes and departures makes me wonder whether I'll be subsequently useless in any other industry, lol. Kalenn Istarion posted:I wouldn't say only, lots of companies are in fact good at paying people fair value. Those people don't come to this thread much, I'm guessing. That said, a change can if you feel that isn't happening. There are lots of situations where someone's skills or experience are being undervalued, and a transition will realize that value if done properly. I agree, the world is not only full of crappy companies looking to screw you, but it is prevalent enough that it's something to be seriously on the look out for. Even at the best and most generous of companies, you still need to advocate for yourself and periodically reassess how much value you are really delivering. This thread definitely focuses on the challenges, difficulties, and tricks of negotiation and can definitely come off as overly harsh or aggressive about the whole thing at times. The real world is full of many more nuances and subtleties that are really hard to communicate/discuss over the internet, but when it comes to evaluating the value of your labor and respectfully, successfully negotiating for it this thread has a lot to offer in general. More than anything it is knowing your value and not being afraid to ask for it. The proof is in how many success stories there have been of people in the interview/negotiation process coming in here, looking for tips, and reporting back higher salaries and benefits than they likely would have otherwise gotten. In the longer term, being a good negotiator (at least not a pushover) likely leads to better career prospects for a variety of reasons, and helps you spot the good companies to work for.
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Oct 21, 2015 02:19
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:The number one thing I've learned from this thread but still have not had the opportunity to test in real life is that you'll only be able to significantly increase your compensation if you jump ship--i.e., have competing offers in hand--yet here I am 3 years out of college and still at the same place that hired me off of Craigslist, and along the way I've made nearly 60% in wage increases from my starting pay. Going from an underpaid post-production grunt to capitalizing on other people's mistakes and departures makes me wonder whether I'll be subsequently useless in any other industry, lol. I think jumping ship is more likely to significantly increase your pay than staying in one place. I don't think it's impossible - obviously you've shown that. Catch-all advice like that is usually not actually catch-all, but rather is tailored to the person being spoken to. As far as I've seen, people who are complacent are a lot more common than people who are too eager to jump to the next new thing. I know plenty of people who are unsatisfied with their jobs, are qualified for other, better jobs, but just don't have the (will/confidence/something else?) to actually make the leap and do it. If your company is the exception and actually does promote from within and reward performance and all that, good for it and you, you don't have to take that advice as one-size-fits-all. For what it's worth, I stayed at roughly the same pay for three years at my first job, then got an offer somewhere else(in a more expensive city) that doubled it. I'm quite glad I had been given that advice, but there's nothing wrong with giving a company a fair shot.
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Oct 21, 2015 02:44
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:The number one thing I've learned from this thread but still have not had the opportunity to test in real life is that you'll only be able to significantly increase your compensation if you jump ship--i.e., have competing offers in hand--yet here I am 3 years out of college and still at the same place that hired me off of Craigslist, and along the way I've made nearly 60% in wage increases from my starting pay. Going from an underpaid post-production grunt to capitalizing on other people's mistakes and departures makes me wonder whether I'll be subsequently useless in any other industry, lol. I think that's not quite the message you should take away from this thread. If I were to distill it to a few points: 1. You should figure out how much your labor is worth by finding out from multiple people what they estimate your labor to be worth. Interviewing with other companies is the best source of this information. This doesn't mean you have to accept any of the offers that might precipitate from these interviews. 2. Your employer has an interest in you not knowing what your labor is worth so they can pay you less than what it is worth. 3. Your employer might be populated by decent human beings. If so, as you do good things they will positively alter your compensation to reflect the good things you do. 4. If your employer refuses to compensate you commensurately with your value then here is a box of tools to gain leverage to get compensated for what you ARE worth.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:48
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I'd also add that sometimes a company might have good intentions but your labor just isn't worth as much to them as it is to another company. The other company might be willing to pay you more because they make more money off of your work. In that case, it makes sens to change companies.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:54
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So they just called and made an offer at the top of my initial range (65k). I told them I had some other leads and said I appreciate that you came in at the top of my range and I would really like to work there but I had to consider my other options. I then asked if it would be appropriate to negotiate. Then they told me to call back Friday morning and basically said they'll negotiate if I bring back an offer for them to negotiate against. Here's the thing.. I do have some leads, but there's no way I'll have another offer by Friday morning. Advice? Edit: Also, I really want this job. Walking away isn't really on my list of options.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:24
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Should I send this? [Name], First I want to thank you again for how helpful you've been working with me during this whole process. You really have made this entire process very fluid and I'd like to extend you the same courtesy by providing some insight and transparency into my current thinking. A company has shown strong interest in me for a contract to hire position at the rate of $42 per hour. Although [Company] is my first choice, I want to make sure that the decision I am making makes financial sense for my future. I am trying to compare these two as evenly as I can, and here is what I've come up with. This is all confusing as hell.. Going to rephrase it and be more to the point. This all brings a roughly comparable salary to about $69,000. I'd just like to reiterate that I really do think that [Company] is a great opportunity, and I also think that investing in me would provide great value to [Company]. Given my current skill set, I anticipate that I will have very limited down time and will be able to provide a high value to the projects that I am part of. I also do not plan on being complacent in my career goals, and rather aim to continually grow through experience, certifications, and education. I really intend to hit the ground running if we agree on an offer and start providing value as quickly as is possible. Considering all of this, I believe that this is a great opportunity not only for me but for [Company] as well. With that being said, I wonder if you'd be willing to attempt to have $69,000 approved as my starting salary. Again, I apologize for adjusting this so late in the process. If you'd like to speak with me further then please don't hesitate to call and I will make myself available to you. Tots fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 23, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 19:34
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Does this thread cover negotiations raises too? Can't seem to find a thread on that subject. If so, I just have a general question regarding bringing up asking for a promotion and pay raise below. Maybe it's a generational thing, but why is emailing, rather than face to face, "not a good business practice" when discussing promotions and raises? Coming from a technical job, I'm used to having a paper trail for everything that happens around me. I don't like the idea of going to lunch with my boss, him saying I'll get the raise I want, and then come time it doesn't happen due to "other circumstances," but maybe that's just me projecting 
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Oct 21, 2015 19:47
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Tots posted:Should I send this? Regarding the crossed-out part, yeah just give them one number. You could say you have been in discussions with another company and have a verbal offer for $X total compensation. Would you be willing to meet that offer?
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Oct 21, 2015 20:08
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kloa posted:Does this thread cover negotiations raises too? Can't seem to find a thread on that subject. Nothing you're thinking about doing is unreasonable, but your boss is holding all the cards in terms of you asking for a raise. Wanting to discuss it over lunch isn't unreasonable either. Go out to lunch with your boss, talk about what you've done and how you're valuable. Don't talk about needing the raise to afford your car payments or to expand your collection of starwars figurines. Get S.M.A.R.T. salary action committed to, e.g. "Okay, so just to make sure we're on the same page, you're going to give me a raise of $3000, increasing my annual salary from $67,000 to $70,000. And that raise is going to be effective as of November 1st and will be reflected in the paycheck I receive November 15th. Is that correct?" You want to make a statement like the above and have your boss say "Yes." THEN as soon as you get out of the lunch meeting send him an email: "Hey boss! Thanks for meeting with me today. That lunch was really tastey, and I'm looking forward to continuing our working relationship and to incorporating the feedback you gave me. To confirm, we agreed that you will be giving me a raise of $3000, increasing my annual salary from $67,000 to $70,000. That raise is going to be effective as of November 1st, and I will see an increased paycheck on November 15th. Thanks again! -kloa" You need to pin him down to a specific figure that reflects an accurate change in your compensation, based on what you are presently making, and when that change will be effective. It's fine to have the meeting in person and discuss it face to face and document after. Just make sure you document after, that your raise is timely, and that you both understand exactly what the raise will be.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:54
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kloa posted:Does this thread cover negotiations raises too? Can't seem to find a thread on that subject. As far as worrying about something promised by a manager not coming through, you're right, that can happen and it has bitten me before. I consider it a deal-breaker and will not work for someone who pulls it on me or anyone else - in addition to the personal sleight, the lack of business ethics is a huge red flag as to how the whole rest of the business operates. To tie it back to other threads in BFC, the privilege of being able to walk away when wronged is part of my motivation for living frugally and achieving financial independence.
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Oct 21, 2015 20:57
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kloa posted:Maybe it's a generational thing, but why is emailing, rather than face to face, "not a good business practice" when discussing promotions and raises? Coming from a technical job, I'm used to having a paper trail for everything that happens around me. I don't like the idea of going to lunch with my boss, him saying I'll get the raise I want, and then come time it doesn't happen due to "other circumstances," but maybe that's just me projecting Initiate and feel it out in person, finalize and confirm details via email/paper.
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Oct 21, 2015 21:56
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thanks goons for all the advice 
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Oct 21, 2015 23:33
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I think that's not quite the message you should take away from this thread. If I were to distill it to a few points: That's what I said except with less words 
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Oct 22, 2015 17:00
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Just in case anyone cares, the previous email I posted got me the number I asked for.  . Never hurts to ask (and provide some justification)!!Later suckers, going to buy a house boat and some blow! Just in case anyone wants to use it as a reference in the future when negotiating, here is what I sent: quote:[Recruiter], Tots fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 23, 2015 |
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Oct 23, 2015 00:40
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kloa posted:Does this thread cover negotiations raises too? Can't seem to find a thread on that subject.
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Oct 23, 2015 00:40
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Does anyone have any specific insight into negotiations in the UK? Every job I've had has asked me if I want the job before discussing pay, which I think makes it more difficult to negotiate. Also when it comes to benefits, I've never really seen things like signing bonuses, transport payments or more than the standard 3 weeks leave plus sick leave and 2/3 well being days being offered. I'm working in entry level public policy/charity roles which I think its very different to the software world most people here are in.
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Oct 23, 2015 08:47
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Sri.Theo posted:Does anyone have any specific insight into negotiations in the UK? Every job I've had has asked me if I want the job before discussing pay, which I think makes it more difficult to negotiate. I don't live in the UK, but I can't imagine that they make you sign anything binding before discussing compensation, that'd just be crazy. Entering into good-faith negotiations I think already signals that you "want the job" if all the details and numbers are agreeable. quote:Also when it comes to benefits, I've never really seen things like signing bonuses, transport payments or more than the standard 3 weeks leave plus sick leave and 2/3 well being days being offered. I suppose that's the flip side of living in a country that provides basic human services and decency to every citizen rather than tying them into employment contracts. I'd much prefer to have universal healthcare, mandated vacation/holidays, etc. than have to negotiate and calculate it all. It works out okay for highly skilled professionals, but as a society most people are getting the short end of the stick. quote:I'm working in entry level public policy/charity roles which I think its very different to the software world most people here are in. Yeah, you'll definitely find that in the public sector that pay bands and benefits are pretty fixed without a lot of room for negotiation, doubly so at the entry level. My girlfriend is finishing up grad school and looking at specialist positions in several public school districts and the salary matrices that attempt to quantify qualifications, experience, seniority, etc. and link them to pay grades are complicated as hell and pretty much non-negotiable. You almost need a masters degree just to decipher them. Welcome to bureaucracy. This thread definitely caters toward private industry where there are far fewer "rules" and most things are negotiable to some extent, especially when you're more experienced and in-demand. But even if you work in the public/NGO sector, it's still very important to your career to know what your skills are and what their market value is, even if you are knowingly taking under-market pay. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 23, 2015 |
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Oct 23, 2015 18:48
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FFFFFFF I negotiated for and accepted a new job with a new company for a big pay bump about a month ago. I still haven't completed the pre-employment process so my current company has no idea I'm leaving. An old boss just called me up and offered me a dream project which would last about 6 months located in a resort town in South America (with a roughly 50% pay bump). arrrghhhhh
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Oct 27, 2015 14:27
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6 months and then what?
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Oct 27, 2015 15:35
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Back to my current job. Or some other position in the company if there are openings. If it were my choice I'd do the project then take the job with the new company, basically tell the new company I'm not available until next summer. Need to talk myself out of it, I don't see how bringing that up could go over well with my future employer.
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Oct 27, 2015 15:59
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It will not. Don't do it.
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Oct 27, 2015 16:00
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Chaotic Flame posted:I've been extended an offer for a position that receives an annual bonus, but I wouldn't be eligible to receive it until 2017 since I'd be starting near the end of this year. Am I off-base in thinking of asking for a signing bonus of some kind since that portion of the compensation package will not be available to me in 2016? For those that care, after a lengthy negotiation that involved an extra interview because I was asking for a salary bump that put me above their cap for the position apparently, I was able to negotiate a 7.5% bump in salary, a signing bonus to account for the lack of bonus in 2016, and a start date that allows for me to reach my vesting date for stock with my current company. Overall, I'm pretty happy.
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Nov 2, 2015 16:16
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Chaotic Flame posted:For those that care, after a lengthy negotiation that involved an extra interview because I was asking for a salary bump that put me above their cap for the position apparently, I was able to negotiate a 7.5% bump in salary, a signing bonus to account for the lack of bonus in 2016, and a start date that allows for me to reach my vesting date for stock with my current company. Overall, I'm pretty happy.  congrats!
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Nov 2, 2015 16:25
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Chaotic Flame posted:For those that care, after a lengthy negotiation that involved an extra interview because I was asking for a salary bump that put me above their cap for the position apparently, I was able to negotiate a 7.5% bump in salary, a signing bonus to account for the lack of bonus in 2016, and a start date that allows for me to reach my vesting date for stock with my current company. Overall, I'm pretty happy.
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Nov 2, 2015 16:54
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Saint Fu posted:
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Enjoying the malaise of showing up to work at a company whose future you are now uninvested in? (I know I am...) Congrats. Thank you both. And I'm definitely embracing the apathy that's settling in.
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Nov 2, 2015 18:36
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I'm with you. Accepted a job a month ago but still waiting on the completion of the pre-employment process. Took my drug test and physical last week so I'm hoping I can finally give my current employer notice in the next few days.
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Nov 2, 2015 18:39
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So I had asked for a raise and my boss countered with a promotion to the next grade at the end of the year, which I accepted. I have a feeling now based on our last conversation that he's expecting me to accept what I had originally asked for as the raise, but I feel like it's fair to ask for more than that given that I'll be at the next level, right? Basically level 1 has a salary range of say 50-65k, and level 2 is 65k-80k, and I had asked originally for me mid 60s. Is it reasonable to now come back and ask for around 70?
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Nov 3, 2015 05:19
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I'd like some input on the following situation: A friend of mine is looking for work. She has recently moved to a new country, and has an interview lined up. So, currently unemployed. She has a decent CV and held a good job, if slightly underpaid for the stress level, before she moved. Her previous job was in a very low-income-tax environment whereas the new country taxes income high, and progressively. Would it be reasonable to bring up the take-home pay of the previous job to compare with? On one hand, it shows what other thought she was worth. On the other hand, the new employer can rightly not really give a rat's rear end about the pay and tax levels of a different job in a different country.
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Nov 3, 2015 08:52
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Xandu posted:So I had asked for a raise and my boss countered with a promotion to the next grade at the end of the year, which I accepted. I have a feeling now based on our last conversation that he's expecting me to accept what I had originally asked for as the raise, but I feel like it's fair to ask for more than that given that I'll be at the next level, right? I'd sit down and ask for clarification as to what he thinks the recommended salary should be. Then I'd say "hey, I want 75k if I'm doing the higher role, the 65k I asked for was in my old role."
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Nov 3, 2015 15:40
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Xandu posted:So I had asked for a raise and my boss countered with a promotion to the next grade at the end of the year, which I accepted. I have a feeling now based on our last conversation that he's expecting me to accept what I had originally asked for as the raise, but I feel like it's fair to ask for more than that given that I'll be at the next level, right? You should schedule a discussion around this ASAP. During your discussion you need to hit the following: - Really excited to be adopting more responsibilities in the new role. - To the extent you can, describe the new additional responsibilities. You know that you'll be doing more and what that entails. - Your previous request was based on the level at which you were executing in your present role. - Given the additional responsibilities you'll be adopting, your new request is $X. Not "around $X". $X. "around" is an imprecise feeling. A number is a measurable goal. Say $70k. When you wrap up verbally confirm what your boss has agreed to: "Great, I'll be starting at level 2 on Jan 1 2016, and my compensation will be upped to $70k." When you get back to a computer email to confirm that in writing.
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Nov 3, 2015 15:44
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