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Paying rent sucks. It's my largest expense every month and all I have to show for it at the end of the month is a nice, safe, and comfortable place to live. Thats why I have begun to look into buying a houseboat to live on full time. Boats depreciate in value really quickly and a used houseboat can be purchased for a fraction of what a house would cost you. Factor in lower "rent" paid to the marina you dock in and even with some extra maintenance costs you can still come out ahead financially. With all that in mind I have begun the process of looking for a used houseboat to purchase to move into. My hope is that with winter quickly approaching I should be able to negotiate a lower sale price for myself and save even more money. Lets quickly discuss the different types of house boats and their pros and cons. Hull Types 1. Steel - These were more common back in the day. Most boats built before the mid 1960's will have a steel deck. These are the worst kind of hull you can get. They are incredibly hard if not impossible to insure, and many marinas wont even accept them into their docks due to concerns about them sinking. The main concern with them is that they can quite easily rust to pieces from the inside out. 2. Fiberglass - These alongside aluminum are the most common type of hull that you will find today. They aren't as light as aluminum but they do have a few advantages. They are fairly strong and easily repaired. You also don't have to worry about rust with a fiberglass hull. They will need periodic cleaning and a yearly waxing though for maintenance. 3. Aluminum - These are the best hulls you can commonly get right now. They are light weight, strong, and durable. While they do require some maintenance it's not as much or as often as a fiberglass hull. If protected by anodes they wont rust either. These are the most expensive types of hull to get in a houseboat but by far the best bang for your buck. Displacement Vs Plaining Hull Displacement hulls are meant for slower travel speeds. They are more fuel efficient and usually handle better. Plaining hulls allow a houseboat to plane and move quicker. They will use more fuel but if you want to travel to places quickly this is the hull type to get. Engines The gasoline vs diesel debate is an active and popular one amongst houseboaters. Diesel engines are overall more efficient and can run quieter and longer in between services. Parts are more expensive for them and gas may be harder and more expensive to come by for them depending on the marina or location of your boat. Gas engines are cheaper to get and its easier to get parts for them. They will require more servicing but gas is usually cheaper and more readily available for them. Outboards/I-O's/Inboards After deciding on gas vs diesel you need to decide what type of engine placement you want your boat to have. The three main types are outboards, like you'd see on a speed boat, Inboard-Outboards that have an engine partially onboard, and full inboard engines. 1. Outboards - Has a lot of pros. They are more common, easier to work on, can be doubled or tripled up for resiliency, and can trim in shallower water. The downside is that they can cost more to repair and can be more complex to work on mechanically. 2. Inboard/Outboard - They cost less than outboards usually and can also trim in shallow water. The downside is that working on them can be a bit cramped and that they take up room onboard your boat. 3. Inboards - These are usually easy to work on, they are onboard so you don't have to swim and play mechanic at the same time. The downside is that they take up the most space on a boat and are the costliest to purchase. They also cant trim the propeller in shallow water. Other Considerations Besides looking at the hull and engine there are other factors to look at on your potential floating ticket to early retirement. How many beds and bathrooms do you need? Do you plan to do lots of traveling with your boat or do you plan to mostly stay put. Everything you take for granted utility wise on your houseboat is an onboard system that you are responsible for. You will want to make sure that the plumbing, wiring, battery and generator systems are all in working order. Whats the heating/ac situation. Most houseboats have an AC not very many have a built in heater. I will be living on this boat in Minnesota in the twin cities area. So winter weather will have to be dealt with. I plan on wrapping the boat in plastic sheeting which is the common practice for ALL houseboats over winter that arent garaged. I will also need bubblers, which are small engines that can be submerged to keep water running around the boat to prevent from getting iced in and damaged. Heating will be a top priority. Most house boats are poorly insulated. Thankfully almost all of them have onboard propane systems. These can be used to power a variety of different propane heaters, similar to what are used on RVs, and can be supplemented with electric space heaters when needed. I will plan on using spray foam insulation as one of my first projects to seal any drafts and to increase the insulation. Long term I may re frame the interior and increase the insulation as well. I also have a totally awesome dog that I love, to consider. Whatever heating method I use it needs to be reliable to be safe for her. So with all that out of the way we can narrow down to what I think is the best buy for a houseboat. I will be looking for an aluminum, displacement hulled boat. With outboard gasoline motors, that is sound mechanically. Interior wise I am willing to refurbish and renovate to my liking. Budget I'm aiming for a boat under $35k. That number may go up and down on financing. Banker types suffer from a lack of imagination and have a problem I like to call "sound thinking" that makes them reluctant to make loans on boats older than 20 years which is what most of the boats in my price range are. There are several boat specific lenders out there and a lot of deals get made with owner financing. Right now I have $8000 that I could go and spend today on a down payment for a boat. Other expenses include docking slip fees. For boats 50 feet or less like I am looking at those run about $300 a month. Than I'll have whatever my boat payments ends up being plus some monthly costs like internet, sewage suction estimated $40 a month, propane $40 a month, as well. Questions From Other Thread Nitrox posted:A boat, used for living, is just an RV that floats. Why not buy a Winnebago and live happily thereafter? It's much better insulated, cheaper to buy/maintain, and you can sleep overnight in your work parking lot. Or are you just trying to appear eccentric, when picking up chicks at the bar? Because a boat is much more fun. I'm doing this as much for the adventure and fun aspect as I am for the savings. And no I'm not doing this to pick up chicks. I have a long term girlfriend, who is not on board with this idea at all but I'll talk her into it once she sees how cool the boat is. Delta-Wye posted:I disagree! The winter is going to be a pain but you sound like you've got a good idea what to expect and if you're in a community of people also living on their boats you'll be fine. Yeah thanks! Thats the spirit. I'll update this thread as things progress. I expect it will be slow moving however as I am spending as much time as possible shopping for boats and trying to get a good one right off the bat. I don't want to be stuck with a lemon that sinks and costs me a ton of money to keep going. Because of this and financing issues I expect the purchase to take some place this winter or spring. I welcome any discussion from others who have done something similar and look forward to learning all I can in the meantime. BaseballPCHiker fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Nov 5, 2015 |
# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:05 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 10:28 |
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edit: responding here instead of the other thread. BaseballPCHiker posted:That said, many many people do this on boats and in RVs each year without going up like a powder keg. Many people drink and drive without getting in accidents, as well. And I think the point is that running the space heater while you're not home leaves you no chance to see an impending disaster and avert it. If something goes wrong while you're at work and your space heater's going, goodbye dog. I know that's true of any heating solution for any dwelling, but A) you will have lest prompt emergency response time and B) space heaters do start fires a lot more commonly than say a traditional furnace. If you really want to do this, you should strongly consider giving the dog up. That way you don't have to run the heater when you're at work and you don't have this problem. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Oct 23, 2015 |
# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:07 |
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Nail Rat posted:And I think the point is that running the space heater while you're not home leaves you no chance to see an impending disaster and avert it. If something goes wrong while you're at work and your space heater's going, goodbye dog. I know that's true of any heating solution for any dwelling, but A) you will have lest prompt emergency response time and B) space heaters do start fires a lot more commonly than say a traditional furnace. That's why I'm looking at an RV style propane heater instead. They can be installed with outside vents and thermostats. That way you have a set temperature and dont have to worry about fumes. The thing that really matters is having a backup battery to run the bubblers, heater, etc in case of a power outage. On exceptionally cold days if I was worried about my dog I would just take her to the dog daycare so I don't have to worry about her. Also the boat will be docked in a marina so should an emergency happen there is staff on hand to respond and then bill you at astronomically high rates.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:23 |
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K&H (khmfg.com) makes heated indoor/outdoor pet beds and bowls, which might be safer than leaving a space heater on.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:32 |
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quote:I have a long term girlfriend, who is not on board with this idea at all but I'll talk her into it once she sees how cool the boat is. I guess you aren't at the point where you would be living together because that would be a much more convenient way to save rent. But are her concerns safety-related?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:37 |
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detectivemonkey posted:
Basically her parents are super religious and wont help her pay for school if she was living with a boy. And there's no way I'm throwing down money for her college. Her concerns are mostly about the heating issue and the dog. She thinks it would be fun to have in the summer and fall but not to live on.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:40 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:Basically her parents are super religious and wont help her pay for school if she was living with a boy. And there's no way I'm throwing down money for her college. Her concerns are mostly about the heating issue and the dog. She thinks it would be fun to have in the summer and fall but not to live on. And I also assume there's no way she can take the dog during the winter? I'm on board (ha!) with the idea and am interested to see how it plays out and whether it really does save money. You've certainly done your research, but seriously be careful with space heaters. I'm an exceptionally cautious person when it comes to things like that, but when I relied on them for a couple weeks I wouldn't even leave the room with one on.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:42 |
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How often do you see her parents? I understand people having really controlling parents, and I understand people not being willing to lie to their parents, but not both. Seems like a little lie will save you both a bunch of money on rent without the boat shenanigans.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:43 |
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detectivemonkey posted:
Now your posts in bad with money make a lot more sense, OP. I have only ever seen Portland and Seattle houseboats. http://www.oregonlive.com/front-porch/index.ssf/2015/02/what_does_it_cost_to_buy_a_hom.html
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:46 |
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Ok hold up. What do you expect your monthly payment to be?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:48 |
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detectivemonkey posted:And I also assume there's no way she can take the dog during the winter? No unfortunately. I took the dog to dog daycare a couple of times a week during the last winter so she could get some exercise. It wouldn't break the bank if I had to do it again this year although it wouldnt be ideal. Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:How often do you see her parents? I understand people having really controlling parents, and I understand people not being willing to lie to their parents, but not both. Seems like a little lie will save you both a bunch of money on rent without the boat shenanigans. Pretty often, they live in the same town so they would definitely know and I wouldnt want to go behind their back like that anyway. Despite being old school they are still good people. SiGmA_X posted:She probably doesn't want to be a future water gypsy. I can't imagine why! Those houses are amazing, even that article mentioned yearly dock fees of about $3500. Here is an article I found that gave me an idea that this might actually save me a good chuck of money: http://www.citypages.com/news/the-real-houseboats-of-the-mississippi-6769926 quote:There's also the most basic appeal of a houseboat: the simple economics of it. Getting onto a boat costs less than getting into a house: Houseboats can range from $500 for an engine-less fixer-upper to $250,000 for a historic two-story. And the living's cheap: Live-aboards don't pay property taxes, and their slip fees — the marina equivalent of rent — come in around $5,000 annually for an average-sized boat.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:56 |
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detectivemonkey posted:Ok hold up. What do you expect your monthly payment to be? Looking like it'd be around $4-500 a month. But thats really variable depending on the length of the loan. Some loans I've looked at do 20 year loans others are down around 10 years, it just all depends. Boat financing appears to be crazy.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 19:58 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:Looking like it'd be around $4-500 a month. Hold up here again. In the other thread you said that 1-bedroom rent in Minneapolis was "approaching" 1000 a month (by the way, this is way lower than it is in a lot of major cities). If you have a $500 payment and $300 boat slippage fees, I don't see how you can possibly be saving enough in utilities to be saving $600 a month in rent - especially considering you'll have to insure this boat because you own it and will be owing tens of thousands of dollars on it after the down payment if my assumption of $8000 = 20% is correct.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:00 |
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Nail Rat posted:If you have a $500 payment and $300 boat slippage fees, I don't see how you can possibly be saving enough in utilities to be saving $600 a month in rent - especially considering you'll have to insure this boat because you own it and will be owing tens of thousands of dollars on it after the down payment if my assumption of $8000 = 20% is correct. That was just a quick ballpark estimate on a 10 year loan at $40k at %6.5 apr. Realistically I'd be looking at a much smaller loan and it would probably be over a 20 year period instead which would cut the payments down by half at least.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:10 |
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Nail Rat posted:Hold up here again. Yeah, this is where I was going. The $600 didn't include the payment for the houseboat. How much is insurance? I can't see this saving more than $100/month. Are you not counting the cost of the houseboat because you'll own it? Because BaseballPCHiker posted:Boats depreciate in value really quickly and a used houseboat can be purchased for a fraction of what a house would cost you.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:11 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:That was just a quick ballpark estimate on a 10 year loan at $40k at %6.5 apr. Realistically I'd be looking at a much smaller loan and it would probably be over a 20 year period instead which would cut the payments down by half at least. You cut the payments down in half, slippage + loan is still $550 ($300 + $250 loan payment). Add in insurance and increased heating costs, not to mention other boat maintenance(in a rented apartment, the landlord is responsible for all normal wear-and-tear repairs; here, you're responsible for everything), it is literally impossible to save anywhere near $600 versus rent that's "approaching $1k". I admit I know very little (practically nothing) about boats, but it seems to me like you've really done your research as far as the boat side of this, but the money side of it really needs some better numbers. I'd like to see what your rent actually costs for 1k bedroom, plus utilities, versus a solid estimate of total cost to run the boat - including boat insurance and an average monthly maintenance allowance. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Oct 23, 2015 |
# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:32 |
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Just going to re-post my comment from the BWM thread: I live in South Dakota and wouldn't want a house boat at all. Half the year in Minnesota you will be fighting the cold and a third of it trying to keep the place warm enough so you don't freeze to death. Move somewhere that isn't a frozen tundra if you're serious about a houseboat. Let's be serious for a moment: You can expect being on the water the temperature will actually be lower than these numbers due to lake effect. How are you planning to survive on a boat in water where 5 months of the year have below-freezing temperature and temps reaching as low as -30F? Not only that but you mention you plan to use bubblers so your dumb boat doesn't end up frozen have you considered the potential issues along with legality in your city/state?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:46 |
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I worry about your dog but encourage you to go on this foolish and partially thought out adventure
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:47 |
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20 year loan? How long do you expect the boat to last? How much will insurance go up as it ages? How much will it be worth five years into the loan?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:49 |
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If the words "boat loan" appear in a post, I think it should automatically be merged with the BWM thread
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:50 |
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How long do you expect to hold the boat when you're looking to sell it?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:53 |
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:If the words "boat loan" appear in a post, I think it should automatically be merged with the BWM thread That's where this thread came from. Ashes to ashes, I guess?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 20:54 |
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Lol, 20 year boat loan. I went to school at the U and just, lol. Minneapolis is not that expensive. What lake are you planning on keeping this boat at? Have you looked at apartments outside of campus and uptown areas? Or is that considered too sketchy a neighborhood? I jumped on craigslist and there is a studio for $760 in marcy Holmes, and $750 for a 1 bdrm in Whittier. You could live in a cute house with roommates a block off Lyndale for $615! All of these are dog friendly, btw. I mean, buy a houseboat if you want, but don't try and convince yourself it's to save money because...no.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:04 |
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FYI, wintering on a boat in Minnesota is apparently a thing that people do. Like... maybe 10-20 people. So it's technically doable, if you're crazy enough. EDIT: Going to second the about the monthly cost of living calculations, though. If slip fees are $300 and you're looking at $80 in boat utilities (you'd pay for water, electricity and cable on land anyhow, but you don't have to pay to empty your apartment's sewage tank or fill its engine), the only way you're saving $600/mo is if you paid cash and didn't have any financing cost (or insurance, which I'm assuming both the bank and marina would require from you.) But you're putting down money to buy a depreciating asset so you're still losing money just by owning it. Even at only $8000 down, the difference between putting $8k in a depreciating asset vs. putting $8k to work earning money is probably $50+ a month--small change, but it adds up with everything else. the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 23, 2015 |
# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:16 |
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detectivemonkey posted:20 year loan? How long do you expect the boat to last? How much will insurance go up as it ages? How much will it be worth five years into the loan? I expect the boat to last another 15 years easily. I doubt insurance would go up that much if at all. While new boats depreciate like crazy they stabilize after a while. Nail Rat posted:You cut the payments down in half, slippage + loan is still $550 ($300 + $250 loan payment). Add in insurance and increased heating costs, not to mention other boat maintenance(in a rented apartment, the landlord is responsible for all normal wear-and-tear repairs; here, you're responsible for everything), it is literally impossible to save anywhere near $600 versus rent that's "approaching $1k". Fair enough lets break down my current living expenses. Rent - $955 Electricity - Xcel $25ish a month Water/Trash - $30ish a month Insurance - $25 a month Total = $1035 Boat Estimates Dock Fee - $300 Insurance - $100 (estimated) I've seen ranges from $300-2000 a year. Black Tank Removal - $40 Propane - $40 Boat Payment - $250-500? Total - $730-980 So monthly maybe I only save a couple hundred a month. BUT when I'm ready to move on I can turn around and sell the thing and make money on the back end of the deal. And I think I've said it multiple times, I'm not just doing this to save money exclusively. If I wanted to go super cheap I would look at an even cheaper houseboat in the $20K range. I may still do that if I find the right boat. I could pay for nearly half of it down at that point. That article I linked to above does say that people do this to be bums and save money so I may be overestimating the costs here by quite a bit. marchantia posted:Lol, 20 year boat loan. I'll admit I don't know the city that well. But I havent been able to find anything cheaper than what I am paying now that will accept dogs and isnt a super long commute. And gently caress living in a studio. No one wants to live in a closet. BaseballPCHiker fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Oct 23, 2015 |
# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:33 |
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Have you had other creative ideas to cut costs that others seem baffled by? Or really off the wall financial ideas to make a ton of money?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:35 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:Boat Estimates No, you probably won't save anything, because there's no maintenance allowance in here. When you pay rent, your landlord pays for repairs. When you OWN a boat, you pay for repairs. Are you telling me nothing breaks on a boat? Because basically every other boat owner would say the opposite. Insurance, I would imagine, is largely for if it sinks/burns down and doesn't cover wear and tear issues.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:38 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:I'll admit I don't know the city that well. But I havent been able to find anything cheaper than what I am paying now that will accept dogs and isnt a super long commute. And gently caress living in a studio. No one wants to live in a closet. You want to live in an uninsulated closet in the middle of a frozen lake. A studio likely has more living space. Also, how exactly do you plan to make money selling on the back end? Depreciation slows down but it doesn't go negative. I know you're planning on putting in improvements, but that increases the value roughly by... the money you spent on improvements. Less depreciation.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:43 |
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Veskit posted:Have you had other creative ideas to cut costs that others seem baffled by? Or really off the wall financial ideas to make a ton of money? Nope. Nail Rat posted:No, you probably won't save anything, because there's no maintenance allowance in here. When you pay rent, your landlord pays for repairs. When you OWN a boat, you pay for repairs. Of course things will break on a boat and I'll deal with them as they come up. Maybe I'm overestimating the value of the loan and tripping people up though. I'm looking at boats in the $30-40K range and taking out a loan for that much and then using my current $8 k as a down payment. So it will make for much lower monthly payments. And the nice thing is that as I improve and maintain the boat I can sell it and get a good chunk of my money out of the deal when I'm ready to move on.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:45 |
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If you want to live on a boat, live on a boat. But if you want to save money, you're not going to convince anyone that taking out a 20-year loan on one of the most laughably bad investments is a good or "frugal" way to do that. Life is all about balancing your priorities. If someone prioritizes living in the city they will pay more in rent. Not every decision you make has to show savings over time, so don't force the square peg of boat ownership onto the round hole of money-saving ideas.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:47 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:Of course things will break on a boat and I'll deal with them as they come up. Then you need to do some research in about how much you can expect to spend in a year and amortize that over a month for budgeting purposes if the whole goal here is to "save money" or hell even if you just don't want to get buried by costs. For example, actual houses usually need on average about 2% maintenance costs per year, so a smart owner is building that into their budget.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 21:51 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:Banker types suffer from a lack of imagination and have a problem I like to call "sound thinking" that makes them reluctant to make loans on boats older than 20 years which is what most of the boats in my price range are. How long till that boat loan is underwater?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 22:24 |
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Don't live on a boat in fuckin' Minnesota to save a few hundred bucks a month. Come on.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 22:28 |
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Nija posted:Don't live on a boat in fuckin' Minnesota to save a few hundred bucks a month. Come on. Few hundred bucks is generous. He'll be lucky if he's saving any money at all after all costs are factored in.
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 23:12 |
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BaseballPCHiker posted:And gently caress living in a studio. No one wants to live in a closet. What range of interior square footage is there for the boats you're looking at? Are they more house or more boat?
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# ? Oct 23, 2015 23:41 |
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I'm amazed that any bank would finance a used houseboat with a 20 year term. That just sounds insane to me.
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# ? Oct 24, 2015 00:00 |
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For way less money and a way better boat.. Get a cheap old Beneteau. http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/Beneteau-First-38-2742096/Passadena/MD/United-States
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# ? Oct 24, 2015 02:30 |
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Yeah, I'm having a hard time believing that anyone will finance this purchase. Have you talked to a bank yet? Do you have any mechanical skills? Also post pictures of the boats you look at.
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# ? Oct 24, 2015 02:42 |
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This is such a bad idea in every way possible. Have you considered moving into a smaller and/or cheaper apartment? I guarantee you can find a more affordable place to live that has more livable space than a 40 year old loving house boat. Seriously, how many square feet of indoor space do the boats you're looking at have? Also, you'll deal with boat maintenance as it comes up? I think you're underestimating the cost of boat repairs.
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# ? Oct 24, 2015 14:12 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 10:28 |
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So, just to recap: 1. You're definitely not going to save any money. 2. Your girlfriend hates the idea. 3. Staying warm in the winter is going to be difficult and possibly dangerous. Even if you don't die, you're not going to be comfortable. Why are you doing this again? You claim "adventure and fun" in your OP but good luck pretending to be Captain Jack Sparrow when you're freezing your balls off in the middle of February in your tarp-covered hobo boat. You'll have a lot more fun if you get some roommates and rent a house. You can even have a pirate themed house party!
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# ? Oct 24, 2015 16:53 |