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Everyone knows robots don't have feelings. I hadn't really considered the artefact thing. I'll probably see if I can just say I'm wearing a cool metal glove but use the same rules as being unarmed? It's what I was gonna do before I saw the book actually had cestus as a weapon so I'm not too concerned. I mainly want to be able parry swords with my bare hands and I can just do that anyway. I'm guessing if I want a sidekick support sniper, retainer is probably which of the three very similar merits I want.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:57
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| # ? May 31, 2024 02:27 |
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And, coincidentally, Claws of the Wood Dragon specify that they're not compatible with MA.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:58
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, but can you actually do that. Like, it seems that I shouldn't be able to just perform a sorcerous working to get innate +10 soak or whatever, so why can I do one for innate +1 accuracy and +3 damage? Does the book actually suggest as much? I think that's exactly the sort of thing you should be able to use sorcerous workings for. It would probably take the form of the 4-dot claws merit, possibly more if you want them to be considered artifacts.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:58
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Prison Warden posted:Everyone knows robots don't have feelings. If it was just a flavor thing that didn't add any tags or damage I would probably allow it.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:59
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Ferrinus posted:And, coincidentally, Claws of the Wood Dragon specify that they're not compatible with MA. Okay, bad example but a Celestial Working includes "Grant a supernatural power to one’s self or to a willing subject, such as a burning gaze, a hypnotic tongue, or cursed blood that turns into deadly scorpions when shed" so in light of that an artifact quality set of fists seems totally legit.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:02
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It's a nice upgrade brag from "My hands are registered as lethal weapons"
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Oct 24, 2015 20:03
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Prison Warden posted:It's a nice upgrade brag from "My hands are registered as lethal weapons" Not quite as nice as "My goods are guaranteed excellent by the Scarlet Empress"
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Oct 24, 2015 20:06
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Bedlamdan posted:Okay, bad example but a Celestial Working includes "Grant a supernatural power to one’s self or to a willing subject, such as a burning gaze, a hypnotic tongue, or cursed blood that turns into deadly scorpions when shed" so in light of that an artifact quality set of fists seems totally legit. Yeah and there are no examples of how to mechanize that poo poo whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, if it had been up to me I wouldn't have made it harder for unarmed martial artists to make artifact-class attacks than for armed martial artists, but I get a strong feeling from reading the book that it's supposed to be a drawback of mixed MA that you don't get proper weapon bonuses. So, specifically turning to the sorcerous workings system to receive a benefit that's very conspicuously missing from the entire rest of the book doesn't seem kosher - it seems like an end-run around the actual intent behind the mechanics, one which could cause actual problems if it turns out that mixed MA (or hypothetical future unarmed-only MA) are so incredibly strong that only the lack of real weapons keeps them on par.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:07
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There's also the point that the only unarmed only MA in the book is Black Claw. Which has the entire point being you look nonthreatening and like you aren't a fighter. It's why you can't use armor or weapons in it. Then again, the book includes a 4 dot set of armor whose passive bonus is 'solars and Sidereals do not count this as armor for the sake of any charms' so there are already ways to get around MA limitations in the core book.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:12
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah and there are no examples of how to mechanize that poo poo whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, if it had been up to me I wouldn't have made it harder for unarmed martial artists to make artifact-class attacks than for armed martial artists, but I get a strong feeling from reading the book that it's supposed to be a drawback of mixed MA that you don't get proper weapon bonuses. So, specifically turning to the sorcerous workings system to receive a benefit that's very conspicuously missing from the entire rest of the book doesn't seem kosher - it seems like an end-run around the actual intent behind the mechanics, one which could cause actual problems if it turns out that mixed MA (or hypothetical future unarmed-only MA) are so incredibly strong that only the lack of real weapons keeps them on par. Probably if you have the hypothetical "My Fists Are Made of Orichalcum" merit your unarmed attacks are suddenly no longer compatible with unarmed martial arts, but still compatible with Brawl. However if you just have Claws 4 you can still make Black Claw attacks, because there's nothing in the Claws merit or the Black Claw restrictions that says you can't.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:14
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Ferrinus posted:And, coincidentally, Claws of the Wood Dragon specify that they're not compatible with MA. Actually, they are in the backer PDF: Wood Dragon Claws, c/p- posted:They So not all MA, but a a lot of the cool ones. And if it's your control spell, you can make evocations for them, so it seems like a good basis for a sorcerous working for martial arts artifact hands.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:15
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unseenlibrarian posted:Actually, they are in the backer PDF: I would read that as being compatible with Black Claw, since it "emphasizes claw strikes".
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Oct 24, 2015 20:17
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah and there are no examples of how to mechanize that poo poo whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, if it had been up to me I wouldn't have made it harder for unarmed martial artists to make artifact-class attacks than for armed martial artists, but I get a strong feeling from reading the book that it's supposed to be a drawback of mixed MA that you don't get proper weapon bonuses. So, specifically turning to the sorcerous workings system to receive a benefit that's very conspicuously missing from the entire rest of the book doesn't seem kosher - it seems like an end-run around the actual intent behind the mechanics, one which could cause actual problems if it turns out that mixed MA (or hypothetical future unarmed-only MA) are so incredibly strong that only the lack of real weapons keeps them on par. I can't say for sure. I'm just going by the call I would make as a GM, were I running the game.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:20
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Natural language rules are just the loving worst.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:20
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Yeah, Wood Dragon's Claws are expressly compatible with Tiger Style at least, so. Also Zarick posted:Natural language rules are just the loving worst.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:22
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Yeah, Wood Dragon's Claws are expressly compatible with Tiger Style at least, so. Then I'm now double correct 
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Oct 24, 2015 20:23
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Of course, Tiger Style is also compatible with already-existing artifact weapons. Just turning all your unarmed actions into artifact-class actions instead is a step past that, but it iiiiis looking like the the release pdf is a little less wienery about letting martial artists make artifact attacks in general. In general, though, if the one and only way to get around some systemic limitation looks like the sorcerous workings system, I would not actually do that, because A) where does it end, mate and B) the sorcerous workings system, as something that expects you to give up real experience points instead of fake experience points to achieve anything, is bullshit to start with. Like, if you're going to be losing XP anyway, why not lose those XP to develop a spell which does whatever you expect your working to do? Then you could at least recast it later.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:28
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Ferrinus posted:B) the sorcerous workings system, as something that expects you to give up real experience points instead of fake experience points to achieve anything, is bullshit to start with. Like, if you're going to be losing XP anyway, why not lose those XP to develop a spell which does whatever you expect your working to do? Then you could at least recast it later. It's to give nice things to the non-sorcerous normies you work with, and to have an effect persist even when you're not present to recast it.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:34
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Bedlamdan posted:It's to give nice things to the non-sorcerous normies you work with, and to have an effect persist even when you're not present to recast it. Plenty of spells have persisting effects already, though. Why cast a Solar-tier sorcerous working to guarantee fertility to a wide region instead of learning and casting Benediction of Archgenesis? Maybe you're going to suggest some minor functional or targeting difference that the working could have that Benediction lacks... but why not research and learn a variant of Benediction, then? It's obvious that Crafts should use the sorcerous workings system when it comes to making rolls, and that sorcerous workings should use Crafts-style pseudoXP. As is, both systems require too much bullshit do-nothing XP investment.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:37
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Ferrinus posted:Plenty of spells have persisting effects already, though. Why cast a Solar-tier sorcerous working to guarantee fertility to a wide region instead of learning and casting Benediction of Archgenesis? Maybe you're going to suggest some minor functional or targeting difference that the working could have that Benediction lacks... but why not research and learn a variant of Benediction, then? Well, there is also the additional wrinkle that Sorcery spells can be Distorted by another Sorcerer, whereas Workings can at worst get cancelled out by a different working that has an opposing effect.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:47
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Ferrinus posted:Plenty of spells have persisting effects already, though. Why cast a Solar-tier sorcerous working to guarantee fertility to a wide region instead of learning and casting Benediction of Archgenesis? Maybe you're going to suggest some minor functional or targeting difference that the working could have that Benediction lacks... but why not research and learn a variant of Benediction, then? I think the option is there just so a Celestial sorcerer like a Sidereal or Lunar could, with a lot of effort, replicate Benediction if they needed to.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:49
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I think the idea is that, in general, sorcerous workings take less xp if you plan on doing something only once or twice. The xp can get refunded if it turns out you don't need/want it any longer, they can't be distorted without an equal amount of effort, turns temporary spells into persistent effects you don't have to maintain, and most importantly you can perform workings beyond your circle (assuming the correct circumstances). That being said, I agree with you, it's probably just better to learn another spell to do what you want. However, I'm not sure where you're coming from when you say sorcery is an xp sink because if anything it is the least xp-sink part of the game. You buy one charm and you get a massive increase in the potential actions your character can undertake and you only have to spend on what you want to gain, often at less cost than a charm or merit. edit: too slow
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Oct 24, 2015 20:51
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I'm saying sorcerous workings are XP sinks, not sorcery itself. That IS a good point about the potential to punch above one's weight class, though it's not like you can't do the equivalent with crafting in a way that doesn't leach away your capacity to learn new martial arts or skill specialties or whatever.Bedlamdan posted:Well, there is also the additional wrinkle that Sorcery spells can be Distorted by another Sorcerer, whereas Workings can at worst get cancelled out by a different working that has an opposing effect. Yeah, cause spells can also be recast - and the parameters under which a spell can be distorted, and how long the results last, and if those are reversible, and so on, also vary by the spell. Why bet my time and XP against the XP of a potential procession of NPCs when I could just bet my time instead? Certianly, a judicious Storyteller could match me step by step, inventing a series of wrinkles and drawbacks in order to browbeat me into specifically using the workings system rather than existing spells, but that's an awful lot of effort to go through just to make sure the Twilight has less net XP than the Dawn. Who actually gains, here?
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Oct 24, 2015 20:51
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So Rich just sent out a new update - Maria and the artist in question got a huge earful, the Chejop and cakes pictures are being replaced, and they're never working with that artist again. Also, the big spread of solars came out much lighter than anticipate, hence certain characters looking whitewashed. At the very least this is highlighting the usefulness of thousands of fans doing your editing for you.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:56
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Don't you get all XP spent on a sorcerous working refunded once the working no longer provides a benefit, or was that changed?
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Oct 24, 2015 20:56
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Sorcerous workings below the Solar Circle are kind of stupid as-written because they mostly consist of solving problems by fiat with xp that you could solve for free by succeeding in an ability roll.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:56
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Flavivirus posted:So Rich just sent out a new update - Maria and the artist in question got a huge earful, the Chejop and cakes pictures are being replaced, and they're never working with that artist again. Also, the big spread of solars came out much lighter than anticipate, hence certain characters looking whitewashed. At the very least this is highlighting the usefulness of thousands of fans doing your editing for you. If the terrible poser art gets replaced entirely, that would mean the plagiarist ripping them off was actually a blessing in disguise.
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Oct 24, 2015 20:58
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Ferrinus posted:Certianly, a judicious Storyteller could match me step by step, inventing a series of wrinkles and drawbacks in order to browbeat me into specifically using the workings system rather than existing spells, but that's an awful lot of effort to go through just to make sure the Twilight has less net XP than the Dawn. Who actually gains, here? The Dawn...?
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Oct 24, 2015 20:59
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Thug Lessons posted:If the terrible poser art gets replaced entirely, that would mean the plagiarist ripping them off was actually a blessing in disguise. Not sure we'll be that lucky sadly - it sounds like they're getting replacement pieces from the same artist. I'd be much happier with sending them packing and getting replacements from someone else (or ever reusing 2E art).
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Oct 24, 2015 21:00
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, cause spells can also be recast - and the parameters under which a spell can be distorted, and how long the results last, and if those are reversible, and so on, also vary by the spell. Why bet my time and XP against the XP of a potential procession of NPCs when I could just bet my time instead? The advantages are that they don't need to be recast, which certainly helps the Dawn Who Wants Ohrichalcum Fists without dragging the Sorcerer with him to cast the spell on him. Nor will an enemy Sorcerer be able to give his buff some monkey's paw style twist where his fists become gigantic hulk hands incapable of being lifted off the ground, or something. I disagree that sorcererous workings are betting time. For one thing, a combat buff from a working doesn't need to be recast if the group is suddenly tossed into a fight, for another it frees the sorcerer from needing to cast the same spell over and over for another player or NPC to get a benefit, especially when the player would much rather be doing something more interesting.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:00
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Thug Lessons posted:If the terrible poser art gets replaced entirely, that would mean the plagiarist ripping them off was actually a blessing in disguise. I think what they meant is that the artist is redoing their poo poo, not that it's getting replaced, sadly.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:00
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Thug Lessons posted:If the terrible poser art gets replaced entirely, that would mean the plagiarist ripping them off was actually a blessing in disguise. This, too, is basically what happened to Nobilis 3e, since most of the replacement art there was a definite improvement, even the stuff that we never identified as traced. (Although I guess it's not really surprising that removing the lowest-quality pieces from a book improves the mean average.)
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Oct 24, 2015 21:01
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Flavivirus posted:Not sure we'll be that lucky sadly - it sounds like they're getting replacement pieces from the same artist. I'd be much happier with sending them packing and getting replacements from someone else (or ever reusing 2E art). I'd be much happier with them not using any art for those sections. No art is better than terrible art.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:03
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Schwarzwald posted:Don't you get all XP spent on a sorcerous working refunded once the working no longer provides a benefit, or was that changed? That hasn't changed. Flavivirus posted:So Rich just sent out a new update - Maria and the artist in question got a huge earful, the Chejop and cakes pictures are being replaced, and they're never working with that artist again. Also, the big spread of solars came out much lighter than anticipate, hence certain characters looking whitewashed. At the very least this is highlighting the usefulness of thousands of fans doing your editing for you. Oh thank god.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:03
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If a Sorcerous Working to give your unarmed attacks artifact traits is legit then there's no reason you couldn't also posit Bracers of Perfected Katas or whatever that did the same thing as an actual artifact, right? It shouldn't be the unique domain of Sorcery or Sorcerous Workings to end-run the drawbacks of other subsystems - it's not the Twilight's job to patch the Dawn's build together.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:06
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I'd rather they just reuse old art than have bad new art. Guide to Glorantha did that and that's like one of the best RPG books I've ever seen, period.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:07
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Attorney at Funk posted:If a Sorcerous Working to give your unarmed attacks artifact traits is legit then there's no reason you couldn't also posit Bracers of Perfected Katas or whatever that did the same thing as an actual artifact, right? It shouldn't be the unique domain of Sorcery or Sorcerous Workings to end-run the drawbacks of other subsystems - it's not the Twilight's job to patch the Dawn's build together. Actually I've done a lot of research on this and it really is the Twilight's job to buy nothing but Craft charms and sorcery while occasionally establishing a fact.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:08
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Bedlamdan posted:The advantages are that they don't need to be recast, which certainly helps the Dawn Who Wants Ohrichalcum Fists without dragging the Sorcerer with him to cast the spell on him. Nor will an enemy Sorcerer be able to give his buff some monkey's paw style twist where his fists become gigantic hulk hands incapable of being lifted off the ground, or something. Orichalcum fists already exist in the game and they don't level drain you or your allies when you put them on.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:08
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I'd say they could try rearranging the page and using the old Chompy art (which was vertical rather than horizontal), but I'm not actually sure how difficult it is to colorize art if the version you have access to has already been shaded. (If it wasn't monochrome I'd much rather see Sophie Campbell's old Games of Divinity demons than the demon illustration in this one.)
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Oct 24, 2015 21:09
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Attorney at Funk posted:If a Sorcerous Working to give your unarmed attacks artifact traits is legit then there's no reason you couldn't also posit Bracers of Perfected Katas or whatever that did the same thing as an actual artifact, right? It shouldn't be the unique domain of Sorcery or Sorcerous Workings to end-run the drawbacks of other subsystems - it's not the Twilight's job to patch the Dawn's build together. Hmmm... you're probably right about that.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:09
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