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Thug Lessons posted:Actually I've done a lot of research on this and it actually is the Twilight's job to buy nothing but Craft charms and sorcery while occasionally establishing a fact. Well I've done a lot of research and it's turned my brain into an XP-generating perpetual motion machine, so-
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Oct 24, 2015 21:10
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| # ? May 29, 2024 19:36 |
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Oh wait, I messed that up, actually they're supposed to buy all the teaching charms in Lore and spend all their time optimizing their allies' builds.
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Oct 24, 2015 21:18
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So, what's gooncenus on the backer pdf?
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Oct 24, 2015 21:23
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I got into an argument elsewhere about the Supernal Ability. I think it's needlessly restrictive and it should just be Caste or Favored, but I got drowned out by dissenting voices. Apparently if you want a Supernal Ability that is only in one Caste, you should change your concept to fit that Caste instead. Am I wrong here? It seems to me that it's a small rules gently caress-up, easy to fix, but I've got dudes up in arms to defend it.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:00
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MonsieurChoc posted:I got into an argument elsewhere about the Supernal Ability. I think it's needlessly restrictive and it should just be Caste or Favored, but I got drowned out by dissenting voices. Apparently if you want a Supernal Ability that is only in one Caste, you should change your concept to fit that Caste instead. No, you were right.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:03
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MonsieurChoc posted:I got into an argument elsewhere about the Supernal Ability. I think it's needlessly restrictive and it should just be Caste or Favored, but I got drowned out by dissenting voices. Apparently if you want a Supernal Ability that is only in one Caste, you should change your concept to fit that Caste instead. I think in the backstory you're supposed to get the Exaltation that meshes with your character better. So you're not gonna see the guy whose defining talent is "good with throwing knives" get something like an Eclipse Exaltation.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:06
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I can almost see it in the sense of, it's one of the few things (it and Anima powers, really) that actually distinguishes the Castes. But no, I think you're right. If I was a fan of the Supernal Ability at all (I'm largely not, I don't like the pressure to bumrush E3 charms right out of the gate) I'd let you pick any of your Caste or Favored Abilities.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:08
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MonsieurChoc posted:I got into an argument elsewhere about the Supernal Ability. I think it's needlessly restrictive and it should just be Caste or Favored, but I got drowned out by dissenting voices. Apparently if you want a Supernal Ability that is only in one Caste, you should change your concept to fit that Caste instead. You're right in that it's needlessly restrictive and should just be deleted. If I wanted to keep it in, I'd just give each character two, one mandatorily in-caste and one out of caste OR favored.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:08
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There was a point in Exalted's history where your Caste pick was fairly unimportant, but some castes lagged far behind others. In particular, Dawn castes and their equivalents really suffered; they had five combat abilities, but in practical terms they would only ever use one, and their favored abilities would be stretched thin picking other things they needed, like Resistance or Dodge. Meanwhile, a Zenith or Night Caste already has multiple useful abilities, like dodge, athletics, and resistance, and only need to favor one combat ability. As a result, Dawns lagged far behind other castes as warriors, and had far fewer resources to spend on branching out. Supernal is a response to all this. It forces every character to focus within their caste's area of expertise and imposes some niche protection for all castes. This makes stronger caste identities for characters, especially when you consider that caste abilities are now pretty powerful. It's an important choice now, as opposed to windowdressing. Is this a good or bad thing? Well, that depends if you want caste identities to be weaker or stronger. If not, I don't think changing it to caste or favored would actually break anything. Personally, I feel torn about it. I think you would get a lot of situations where every member of the circle has a combat ability supernal, narrowing the game somewhat and potentially leaving the circle with little utility outside of combat. On the other hand, if that's what people find fun, more power to them.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:10
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Ferrinus posted:You're right in that it's needlessly restrictive and should just be deleted. If I wanted to keep it in, I'd just give each character two, one mandatorily in-caste and one out of caste OR favored. So what you're saying is, you'd give everyone one in-Caste Supernal and also whatever their primary attack Ability is.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:10
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Attorney at Funk posted:So what you're saying is, you'd give everyone one in-Caste Supernal and also whatever their primary attack Ability is. Hell,
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Oct 24, 2015 22:12
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Yeah honestly I just don't think the Supernal Ability and the Dawn Caste as currently conceived can co-exist in a game where everybody has to be able to fight. The split pressures are really annoying. The thing that I hated about the Supernal when I made my first character in the Leak (a Twilight) was that even though I wanted to be a sorcerer and a loremaster I felt like I was wasting my time not Supernaling Martial Arts.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:15
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Ferrinus posted:Hell,
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Oct 24, 2015 22:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:I got into an argument elsewhere about the Supernal Ability. I think it's needlessly restrictive and it should just be Caste or Favored, but I got drowned out by dissenting voices. Apparently if you want a Supernal Ability that is only in one Caste, you should change your concept to fit that Caste instead. You are correct. Ferrinus posted:You're right in that it's needlessly restrictive and should just be deleted. If I wanted to keep it in, I'd just give each character two, one mandatorily in-caste and one out of caste OR favored. But not you!!
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Oct 24, 2015 22:23
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TBH my houseruled Supernal would just be +1 Essence for that Ability though.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:24
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I think there are a couple of places where having Caste-restricted Supernals hurts concepts (Twilights can't favor Survival to get the really good familiar Charms for their summoned spirits, you can't have Supernal Sail unless you're a diplomat) but in general I think the reasons behind it are sound. I think the #1 reason it's Caste-restricted is "so that Dawns are always the number-one assbeater and nobody who isn't the Dawn has to feel guilty for not being that."
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Oct 24, 2015 22:24
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fool_of_sound posted:TBH my houseruled Supernal would just be +1 Essence for that Ability though. If you've read the charm list, you'd see this kinda sucks, because Essence 3 is where the money charms live. Buying Ess2 charms ahead of schedule is kinda pointless.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:26
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fool_of_sound posted:TBH my houseruled Supernal would just be +1 Essence for that Ability though. That fixes some problems with supernal abilities assuming you want them to exist (as implemented they become less and less important as you level up, such that the dawn has a limited window of time for being the best fighter) but not the problems with supernal abilities that just lead everyone to always take dawn caste abilities if they possibly can. Rand Brittain posted:I think the #1 reason it's Caste-restricted is "so that Dawns are always the number-one assbeater and nobody who isn't the Dawn has to feel guilty for not being that." Right, so they feel guilty for not being Dawns instead.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:27
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Thanks guys. I wanted to get a second opinion because I was really getting a "Am I crazy here?" moment.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:33
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Ferrinus posted:That fixes some problems with supernal abilities assuming you want them to exist (as implemented they become less and less important as you level up, such that the dawn has a limited window of time for being the best fighter) but not the problems with supernal abilities that just lead everyone to always take dawn caste abilities if they possibly can. Anyone running Exalted: is the Dawn/non-Dawn combat disparity significant enough to cause problems? I don't mean compared to the Eclipse who took no combat Abilities and no combat Charms, but compared to a character with 3 Dex, 3-4 (Ability), and two or three combat charms?
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Oct 24, 2015 22:34
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fool_of_sound posted:Anyone running Exalted: is the Dawn/non-Dawn combat disparity significant enough to cause problems? I don't mean compared to the Eclipse who took no combat Abilities and no combat Charms, but compared to a character with 3 Dex, 3-4 (Ability), and two or three combat charms? Dex 5 and [Attack Ability] 5 are cheap enough at chargen that even noninvested combatants are going to want it. It really does just come down to Charm investment. (Well, Charm and Merit investment)
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Oct 24, 2015 22:37
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Ferrinus posted:That fixes some problems with supernal abilities assuming you want them to exist (as implemented they become less and less important as you level up, such that the dawn has a limited window of time for being the best fighter) but not the problems with supernal abilities that just lead everyone to always take dawn caste abilities if they possibly can. Essence 1 charms for Melee and poo poo are good enough that you can gently caress poo poo up regardless of whether or not you are a Dawn. Unless your GM decides that he or she feels the need to relentlessly throw tons of Essence 5 badass motherfuckers at your group, you're not gonna be crying because you can't do Flashing Edge of Dawn until your XP dings 125.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:39
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Attorney at Funk posted:If you've read the charm list, you'd see this kinda sucks, because Essence 3 is where the money charms live. Buying Ess2 charms ahead of schedule is kinda pointless. Unless it's Supernal Melee and you want Fivefold Bulwark Stance, Iron Whirlwind Attack, Heavenly Guardian Defense and Hail-Shattering Practice.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:40
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Thug Lessons posted:Unless it's Supernal Melee and you want Fivefold Bulwark Stance, Iron Whirlwind Attack, Heavenly Guardian Defense and Hail-Shattering Practice. Yeah but Melee users are scum. The Dawn in the game I ran was a Melee specialist so I just humiliated him at every opportunity.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:41
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SunAndSpring posted:Essence 1 charms for Melee and poo poo are good enough that you can gently caress poo poo up regardless of whether or not you are a Dawn. Unless your GM decides that he or she feels the need to relentlessly throw tons of Essence 5 badass motherfuckers at your group, you're not gonna be crying because you can't do Flashing Edge of Dawn until your XP dings 125. So then there's no reason to restrict supernal abilities to in-caste because there's no reason everyone would take dawn abilities otherwise anyway, right?
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Oct 24, 2015 22:43
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And really, what's the point of having a Dawn that has Supernal Occult or a Zenith that has Supernal Stealth? It's just a waste of your anima effect in most cases.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:43
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Honestly I'd rather they just get rid of Essence requirements.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:47
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I like supernal being restricted in caste when I GM, because then I know I will only have one supernal martial artist or meleer. I dislike it when I'm a player because sometimes I want to make a night caste pirate with supernal sail. I do feel like if you think your characters core ability is something you should make them just be that caste in most cases.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:51
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Given the sounds of things, it honestly does sound like it'd be easier to just have attributes be a checkbox: if you don't have a checkbox, two dice, if you do have a checkbox, five dice. Similarly with abilities.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:51
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SunAndSpring posted:And really, what's the point of having a Dawn that has Supernal Occult quote:or a Zenith that has Supernal Stealth?
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Oct 24, 2015 22:52
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Am I crazy here or is this box a little inaccurate?
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Oct 24, 2015 22:53
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KittyEmpress posted:I like supernal being restricted in caste when I GM, because then I know I will only have one supernal martial artist or meleer. I dislike it when I'm a player because sometimes I want to make a night caste pirate with supernal sail. Hahaha, yeah that was me.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:55
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Ferrinus posted:So then there's no reason to restrict supernal abilities to in-caste because there's no reason everyone would take dawn abilities otherwise anyway, right? Why would the fighter caste need to have the ability to be the best Socializer at the table? Shouldn't he just pick an Eclipse if he wants to be a diplomat?
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Oct 24, 2015 22:56
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SunAndSpring posted:Why would the fighter caste need to have the ability to be the best Socializer at the table? Shouldn't he just pick an Eclipse if he wants to be a diplomat? Okay but the problem comes in when you realize that Dawns have every single combat ability as their exclusive supernals.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:57
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SunAndSpring posted:Why would the fighter caste need to have the ability to be the best Socializer at the table? Shouldn't he just pick an Eclipse if he wants to be a diplomat? I don't think we need to worry about that one.
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Oct 24, 2015 22:59
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I completely agree Supernals should be Favoured or Caste. Sometimes you want to excel in an ability that isn't a caste one but you work to fit the concept of a caste. Maybe you're a holy warrior who wants to spread worship of the Unconquered Sun through war and conversion and you want Melee or War. Maybe you're a Twilight who wants to search the furthest reaches of the Western Sea in your boat for lost realms and treasures of the First Age and Sail would be good. You could be a Night Caste Assassin who kills from afar with your deadly precise bow which needs Archery. There are a lot of ways a character could fit into a certain Caste's thematic niche while primarily focusing on an ability of a different Caste. It fits with the fluff as well, as I'm sure the Abyssals or Underworld book in 2e specifically pointed out that one of Walker In Darknesses weaknesses was that because he'd lost his memories he didn't realise that Solars (and therefore Abyssals) didn't fit nice little check boxes and there was no reason his Dusk Caste Couldn't be a much better sorceror than his Daybreak cast artificer. Hell, up until the changes in 2.5e it fits with the crunch too. With their anima effect Twilights could be better fighters than Dawn Castes due to their soak bonus and there was nothing stopping any Caste from diving into the charms of any other Caste.
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Oct 24, 2015 23:23
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When it comes to Supernal stuff I just straight up feel bad for Eclipses, because Sail is near-irrelevant in most games and Ride is maybe 50/50 depending on if other PCs can actually keep with a mount while traveling.Thug Lessons posted:Oh wait, I messed that up, actually they're supposed to buy all the teaching charms in Lore and spend all their time optimizing their allies' builds. Also supplying free Evocations to the Circle. Nessus posted:Given the sounds of things, it honestly does sound like it'd be easier to just have attributes be a checkbox: if you don't have a checkbox, two dice, if you do have a checkbox, five dice. Similarly with abilities. I like this. MonsieurChoc posted:Hahaha, yeah that was me. I've seen at least four or five different people on different boards who immediately thought "Night caste pirate" and then were sad they couldn't take Supernal Sail.
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Oct 24, 2015 23:28
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DarckRedd posted:Personally, I feel torn about it. I think you would get a lot of situations where every member of the circle has a combat ability supernal, narrowing the game somewhat and potentially leaving the circle with little utility outside of combat. On the other hand, if that's what people find fun, more power to them. Somehow I ended up with a situation where nobody has a combat ability supernal, not even the Dawn.
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Oct 24, 2015 23:42
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I got my PDF. When do the lunars get their book
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Oct 24, 2015 23:45
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PrinceRandom posted:I got my PDF.
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Oct 24, 2015 23:52
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